Nitrogen Question
Le Mans Master
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 5,709
Likes: 6
From: Midwest
Oh boy, I LOVE nitrogen questions. I was once a service advisor and was heavily involved in the process and marketing when we added nitrogen service in the shop.
Some people swear by it, and won't let you put anything else in their tires. Personally, I think they drank the koolaid.
In theory, since nitrogen molecules are bigger than oxygen or other molecules that make up the air, and thus harder to get out through teeny tiny little seams in the tires and around the bead, filling a tire with them should keep pressure up longer.
Note, the key word above is longer. It still seeps out, maybe just not as quickly. I never bought into the nitrogen thing for several reasons:
1) It costs about $25 or so to have all the bad air sucked out and have nitrogen put back in. Maybe I'm just a cheapskate, but for the price of 25 McChiken sandwiches, I always thought it was more marketing than actual value.
2) You still have to put the stuff back in from time to time. And, you can't do it down at the local Gas & Grunt. You have to go somewhere where they actually have nitrogen.
3) You should be checking your tires for tread depth, wear patterns and pressure regularly anyway. TPM's probably contribute to more tire wear than they save, because when people have TPM's they tend to forget about their tires and how they are wearing and think that as long as the light is off, all's good on the corners.
4) Air is about 78% or so nitrogen anyway. I don't know what that has to do with anything, but to pay to get that up to about the 90% level, which is what you actually get, just wasn't anything I could get excited about.
From my experience on the service drive, I think people do it because it makes them "feel" better. Kind of like changing their oil more often than the manufacturer recommends. Do it if you want. I'll pass.
Some people swear by it, and won't let you put anything else in their tires. Personally, I think they drank the koolaid.
In theory, since nitrogen molecules are bigger than oxygen or other molecules that make up the air, and thus harder to get out through teeny tiny little seams in the tires and around the bead, filling a tire with them should keep pressure up longer.
Note, the key word above is longer. It still seeps out, maybe just not as quickly. I never bought into the nitrogen thing for several reasons:
1) It costs about $25 or so to have all the bad air sucked out and have nitrogen put back in. Maybe I'm just a cheapskate, but for the price of 25 McChiken sandwiches, I always thought it was more marketing than actual value.
2) You still have to put the stuff back in from time to time. And, you can't do it down at the local Gas & Grunt. You have to go somewhere where they actually have nitrogen.
3) You should be checking your tires for tread depth, wear patterns and pressure regularly anyway. TPM's probably contribute to more tire wear than they save, because when people have TPM's they tend to forget about their tires and how they are wearing and think that as long as the light is off, all's good on the corners.
4) Air is about 78% or so nitrogen anyway. I don't know what that has to do with anything, but to pay to get that up to about the 90% level, which is what you actually get, just wasn't anything I could get excited about.
From my experience on the service drive, I think people do it because it makes them "feel" better. Kind of like changing their oil more often than the manufacturer recommends. Do it if you want. I'll pass.
Nitrogen does not expand or contract nearly as much as regular atmosphere. That is part of why it is in every rifle-scope you will buy. It also prevents fogging up under temp-changes (not really important for a tire).
Last edited by BSSN; Jan 12, 2011 at 11:11 PM.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,022
Likes: 8
From: Stafford VA, home of our wolf den. No house break ins to date.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 5,759
Likes: 539
From: AZ
St. Jude Donor '06-'08-'10-'11-'12-'13 '14-'15-'16-'17-'18-'19
I used nitrogen and it helped me get more consistant contact patches under varying temperatures. Count me as a cool-aid drinker, but the facts are written on the pavement.
Nitrogen does not expand or contract nearly as much as regular atmosphere. That is part of why it is in every rifle-scope you will buy. It also prevents fogging up under temp-changes (not really important for a tire).
Nitrogen does not expand or contract nearly as much as regular atmosphere. That is part of why it is in every rifle-scope you will buy. It also prevents fogging up under temp-changes (not really important for a tire).
But yes, using nitrogen lessens the effect of temperature changes on the tire pressure which would change the contact patch.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 7,250
Likes: 6
From: Glassboro New Jersey
Racer
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 485
Likes: 1
From: Texas
After researching this topic exhaustively I have deduced the following:
Did a word seach for "nitrogen" in the 2008 owner's manual-- zero hits. The owner's manual does recommend inflating the tires with "air" (p. 5-67).
Googled "air." Based on the results, for my tires, I have decided to go with a precise mixture of the following:
Nitrogen N2 78.084 %
Oxygen O2 20.9476 %
Argon Ar 0.934 %
Carbon Dioxide CO2 0.0314 %
Neon Ne 0.001818 %
Methane CH4 0.0002 %
Helium He 0.000524 %
Krypton Kr 0.000114 %
Hydrogen H2 0.00005 %
Xenon Xe 0.0000087 %
To my delight and joy, I also discovered that this mixture is readily available and typically less expensive than nitrogen servicing.
Did a word seach for "nitrogen" in the 2008 owner's manual-- zero hits. The owner's manual does recommend inflating the tires with "air" (p. 5-67).
Googled "air." Based on the results, for my tires, I have decided to go with a precise mixture of the following:
Nitrogen N2 78.084 %
Oxygen O2 20.9476 %
Argon Ar 0.934 %
Carbon Dioxide CO2 0.0314 %
Neon Ne 0.001818 %
Methane CH4 0.0002 %
Helium He 0.000524 %
Krypton Kr 0.000114 %
Hydrogen H2 0.00005 %
Xenon Xe 0.0000087 %
To my delight and joy, I also discovered that this mixture is readily available and typically less expensive than nitrogen servicing.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 5,584
Likes: 406
From: Syracuse New York
My wife's new Buick Enclave came with a window sticker indicating it has nitrogen in the tires. Our temperature here in Arkansas fluctuates and I am often adding air or removing it from my vette tires to keep the air pressure right.
Her car reminded me that maybe I should get nitrogen in my tires. It was my understanding that nitrogen filled tires will maintain pressure regardless of the temperature and this would be nice for me.
She got a low tire pressure warning on her car and took it in. They added nitrogen and she brought up what I had told her about tire pressure with nitrogen in them not fluctuating. The guy at the dealership says that pressure will still change some with very cold weather.
So, what is the real story?
Her car reminded me that maybe I should get nitrogen in my tires. It was my understanding that nitrogen filled tires will maintain pressure regardless of the temperature and this would be nice for me.
She got a low tire pressure warning on her car and took it in. They added nitrogen and she brought up what I had told her about tire pressure with nitrogen in them not fluctuating. The guy at the dealership says that pressure will still change some with very cold weather.
So, what is the real story?
Le Mans Master
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,709
Likes: 1
From: Pacific Northwest
St. Jude Donor '06
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 21,502
Likes: 462
From: Southern Utah
Costco puts it in all their tires for free...nice, but I would never pay extra money for it. And I had to take off the green valve caps that they put on...too goofy looking even for my SUV.
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Race Director
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From: Saint Albans, WV
☠☣☢ Semper Ebrius ☢☣☠
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 83,301
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From: Virginia
Cruise-In IV-V-VI-VII Veteran
St. Jude's Donor '06
A few things:
First, an N2 molecule is almost exactly the same size as an O2 molecule, at ~300 picometers versus ~292 picometers in length (if you simply calculate based on covalent radii.) If you use the covalent radius for N2 with a triple bond, then you wind up with a length of about 216 picometers, and with a covalent radius for O2 with a double bond, you wind up with a length of about 228 picometers, meaning that O2 is actually larger.
Somehow I doubt that a mounted tire has a problem with one leaking out but not the other.
N2 is used in aviation, but that's because aircraft tires encounter much greater changes in temperature and pressure.
Water vapor in your tire can result in larger pressure fluctuations as it heats up, but that's easily counteracted by simply filling your tire up with dry air. As any A/C unit dries the air, if you find yourself in a humid environment and care that much, simply air up your tire inside your house, or with your air compressor drawing air from inside your car while the A/C is running and the air is dry.
First, an N2 molecule is almost exactly the same size as an O2 molecule, at ~300 picometers versus ~292 picometers in length (if you simply calculate based on covalent radii.) If you use the covalent radius for N2 with a triple bond, then you wind up with a length of about 216 picometers, and with a covalent radius for O2 with a double bond, you wind up with a length of about 228 picometers, meaning that O2 is actually larger.
Somehow I doubt that a mounted tire has a problem with one leaking out but not the other.
N2 is used in aviation, but that's because aircraft tires encounter much greater changes in temperature and pressure.
Water vapor in your tire can result in larger pressure fluctuations as it heats up, but that's easily counteracted by simply filling your tire up with dry air. As any A/C unit dries the air, if you find yourself in a humid environment and care that much, simply air up your tire inside your house, or with your air compressor drawing air from inside your car while the A/C is running and the air is dry.
Last edited by Scissors; Jan 13, 2011 at 03:06 PM.
Racer
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 310
Likes: 0
From: Cheatham County TN
Wounded Warrior Escort '11
When you purchase compressed nitrogen, you are buying Nitrogen with trace inerts, having a purity 99.998% with Oxygen Less than 0.001%
Nuff said!
Pro
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 565
Likes: 8
From: La Jolla California
Oh boy, I LOVE nitrogen questions. I was once a service advisor and was heavily involved in the process and marketing when we added nitrogen service in the shop.
Some people swear by it, and won't let you put anything else in their tires. Personally, I think they drank the koolaid.
In theory, since nitrogen molecules are bigger than oxygen or other molecules that make up the air, and thus harder to get out through teeny tiny little seams in the tires and around the bead, filling a tire with them should keep pressure up longer.
Note, the key word above is longer. It still seeps out, maybe just not as quickly. I never bought into the nitrogen thing for several reasons:
1) It costs about $25 or so to have all the bad air sucked out and have nitrogen put back in. Maybe I'm just a cheapskate, but for the price of 25 McChiken sandwiches, I always thought it was more marketing than actual value.
2) You still have to put the stuff back in from time to time. And, you can't do it down at the local Gas & Grunt. You have to go somewhere where they actually have nitrogen.
3) You should be checking your tires for tread depth, wear patterns and pressure regularly anyway. TPM's probably contribute to more tire wear than they save, because when people have TPM's they tend to forget about their tires and how they are wearing and think that as long as the light is off, all's good on the corners.
4) Air is about 78% or so nitrogen anyway. I don't know what that has to do with anything, but to pay to get that up to about the 90% level, which is what you actually get, just wasn't anything I could get excited about.
From my experience on the service drive, I think people do it because it makes them "feel" better. Kind of like changing their oil more often than the manufacturer recommends. Do it if you want. I'll pass.
Some people swear by it, and won't let you put anything else in their tires. Personally, I think they drank the koolaid.
In theory, since nitrogen molecules are bigger than oxygen or other molecules that make up the air, and thus harder to get out through teeny tiny little seams in the tires and around the bead, filling a tire with them should keep pressure up longer.
Note, the key word above is longer. It still seeps out, maybe just not as quickly. I never bought into the nitrogen thing for several reasons:
1) It costs about $25 or so to have all the bad air sucked out and have nitrogen put back in. Maybe I'm just a cheapskate, but for the price of 25 McChiken sandwiches, I always thought it was more marketing than actual value.
2) You still have to put the stuff back in from time to time. And, you can't do it down at the local Gas & Grunt. You have to go somewhere where they actually have nitrogen.
3) You should be checking your tires for tread depth, wear patterns and pressure regularly anyway. TPM's probably contribute to more tire wear than they save, because when people have TPM's they tend to forget about their tires and how they are wearing and think that as long as the light is off, all's good on the corners.
4) Air is about 78% or so nitrogen anyway. I don't know what that has to do with anything, but to pay to get that up to about the 90% level, which is what you actually get, just wasn't anything I could get excited about.
From my experience on the service drive, I think people do it because it makes them "feel" better. Kind of like changing their oil more often than the manufacturer recommends. Do it if you want. I'll pass.
Ya what he said
Melting Slicks
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,223
Likes: 12
From: "No matter where you go... there you are"...."You cannot drive a dollar bill". ...and remember... "D
A few things:
First, an N2 molecule is almost exactly the same size as an O2 molecule, at ~300 picometers versus ~292 picometers in length (if you simply calculate based on covalent radii.) If you use the covalent radius for N2 with a triple bond, then you wind up with a length of about 216 picometers, and with a covalent radius for O2 with a double bond, you wind up with a length of about 228 picometers, meaning that O2 is actually larger.
Somehow I doubt that a mounted tire has a problem with one leaking out but not the other.
N2 is used in aviation, but that's because aircraft tires encounter much greater changes in temperature and pressure.
Water vapor in your tire can result in larger pressure fluctuations as it heats up, but that's easily counteracted by simply filling your tire up with dry air. As any A/C unit dries the air, if you find yourself in a humid environment and care that much, simply air up your tire inside your house, or with your air compressor drawing air from inside your car while the A/C is running and the air is dry.
First, an N2 molecule is almost exactly the same size as an O2 molecule, at ~300 picometers versus ~292 picometers in length (if you simply calculate based on covalent radii.) If you use the covalent radius for N2 with a triple bond, then you wind up with a length of about 216 picometers, and with a covalent radius for O2 with a double bond, you wind up with a length of about 228 picometers, meaning that O2 is actually larger.
Somehow I doubt that a mounted tire has a problem with one leaking out but not the other.
N2 is used in aviation, but that's because aircraft tires encounter much greater changes in temperature and pressure.
Water vapor in your tire can result in larger pressure fluctuations as it heats up, but that's easily counteracted by simply filling your tire up with dry air. As any A/C unit dries the air, if you find yourself in a humid environment and care that much, simply air up your tire inside your house, or with your air compressor drawing air from inside your car while the A/C is running and the air is dry.
Had to spend half the night trying to figure out how to measure what the hell a picometer is/are. At first I thought it had something to do with picking my nose...but that wasn't it.
Then came the covalent issue.............
Finally had to quit when it came to water vapor thing..........
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,813
Likes: 287
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Come on guys. Jay Leno says all the cars in his garage have nitrogen in the tires and thats the way to go. He even has a video about it. If you can't trust Jay who can you trust ?
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 6,113
Likes: 8
From: Pottsboro; Sometimes Dallas Texas
St. Jude Donor '12
It has been my experience with nitro that you will have to top it off same as air, so the hassle of having to take it to tire shop or dealership is NOT worth it. If you do not go to the track I would (and have) start using "plain ole air".....nitro IS more stabil to temperature changes than "room air" but IMO just not worth the headache of finding a dealer or tire shop....and the cost of buying my own cylinder and putting one in my own shop at home is NOT worth it either.....if I was a dealer or had a fleet of vehicles I'll reconsider....it will not matter if you add air to tires which contain nitro either.....
add: the air we breathe (room air) is vast majority nitrogen anyway....so why pay more money????
add: the air we breathe (room air) is vast majority nitrogen anyway....so why pay more money????
Last edited by tim414; Jan 15, 2011 at 05:22 AM.
Racer
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 310
Likes: 0
From: Cheatham County TN
Wounded Warrior Escort '11
HELIUM WRONG!!!!! I think you have Helium confused with hydrogen. But you will need to look it up to confirm my statement.
"HELIUM IS NOT FLAMMABLE"