Steering feel, anyway to improve it?
09-25-2012, 01:55 PM
#1
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Steering feel, anyway to improve it?
I have a 2007 C6 base with Z51. Can someone explain why I'm driving a truck and not a sports car? What can I do to fix this?
Is the car too heavy? Are the stock wheels (tires 245/40r17) too heavy? Is it my tires? (Hankook V12). My allignment shouldn't be the problem, it's done to a specified degree, not vaguely on specs.
I didn't try an 08+ yet, but I've read they have improved steering feel? If so, what parts would I need and are they interchangeable with the 07?
I drove a Miata for the past 6 years, lighter car and lighter tires, superb steering feel. Just tried a Scion FRS at autocross this weekend, it was even a better feel than the Miata! Is the difference the weight alone? I doubt it. Is it made that way because it can reach very high speeds and it's better for that?
Help please!
Is the car too heavy? Are the stock wheels (tires 245/40r17) too heavy? Is it my tires? (Hankook V12). My allignment shouldn't be the problem, it's done to a specified degree, not vaguely on specs.
I didn't try an 08+ yet, but I've read they have improved steering feel? If so, what parts would I need and are they interchangeable with the 07?
I drove a Miata for the past 6 years, lighter car and lighter tires, superb steering feel. Just tried a Scion FRS at autocross this weekend, it was even a better feel than the Miata! Is the difference the weight alone? I doubt it. Is it made that way because it can reach very high speeds and it's better for that?
Help please!
09-25-2012, 02:05 PM
#2
Le Mans Master
I think "feel" is a word that can be defined different based upon many things. Some people would describe feel as turn in response, some people would describe feel as steering heaviness, etc.
You make a lot of reference to lighter cars, so it makes me think your description of "feel" is really due to the lack of mass associated with lighter cars. My wife, very much the enthusiast driver as well, likes the smaller cars. I've built her everything from nitrous fed Civic's to track day Miata's to her current S2000. Those cars, compared to my Z06, have a much more direct feel, in that they redirect very little mass, have much less contact patch, and are overall just very small cars. You feel more directly in contact with the street on a smaller platform.
I think the "fix" for you, is to get out and run the Corvette at events and adapt to the platform. You need to develop a sense for driving a larger package at the limit. Its a heavier, wider feeling car, but it is still quite capable in that it makes big torque (i.e. throttle steer) and has a lot of lateral grip along with a list of other fine attributes.
Miata's to Corvettes are apples and oranges. Go an even step further and drive a shifter kart on the track. That's super feel.
You make a lot of reference to lighter cars, so it makes me think your description of "feel" is really due to the lack of mass associated with lighter cars. My wife, very much the enthusiast driver as well, likes the smaller cars. I've built her everything from nitrous fed Civic's to track day Miata's to her current S2000. Those cars, compared to my Z06, have a much more direct feel, in that they redirect very little mass, have much less contact patch, and are overall just very small cars. You feel more directly in contact with the street on a smaller platform.
I think the "fix" for you, is to get out and run the Corvette at events and adapt to the platform. You need to develop a sense for driving a larger package at the limit. Its a heavier, wider feeling car, but it is still quite capable in that it makes big torque (i.e. throttle steer) and has a lot of lateral grip along with a list of other fine attributes.
Miata's to Corvettes are apples and oranges. Go an even step further and drive a shifter kart on the track. That's super feel.
09-25-2012, 02:12 PM
#3
Sr.Random input generator
I think "feel" is a word that can be defined different based upon many things. Some people would describe feel as turn in response, some people would describe feel as steering heaviness, etc.
You make a lot of reference to lighter cars, so it makes me think your description of "feel" is really due to the lack of mass associated with lighter cars. My wife, very much the enthusiast driver as well, likes the smaller cars. I've built her everything from nitrous fed Civic's to track day Miata's to her current S2000. Those cars, compared to my Z06, have a much more direct feel, in that they redirect very little mass, have much less contact patch, and are overall just very small cars. You feel more directly in contact with the street on a smaller platform.
I think the "fix" for you, is to get out and run the Corvette at events and adapt to the platform. You need to develop a sense for driving a larger package at the limit. Its a heavier, wider feeling car, but it is still quite capable in that it makes big torque (i.e. throttle steer) and has a lot of lateral grip along with a list of other fine attributes.
Miata's to Corvettes are apples and oranges. Go an even step further and drive a shifter kart on the track. That's super feel.
You make a lot of reference to lighter cars, so it makes me think your description of "feel" is really due to the lack of mass associated with lighter cars. My wife, very much the enthusiast driver as well, likes the smaller cars. I've built her everything from nitrous fed Civic's to track day Miata's to her current S2000. Those cars, compared to my Z06, have a much more direct feel, in that they redirect very little mass, have much less contact patch, and are overall just very small cars. You feel more directly in contact with the street on a smaller platform.
I think the "fix" for you, is to get out and run the Corvette at events and adapt to the platform. You need to develop a sense for driving a larger package at the limit. Its a heavier, wider feeling car, but it is still quite capable in that it makes big torque (i.e. throttle steer) and has a lot of lateral grip along with a list of other fine attributes.
Miata's to Corvettes are apples and oranges. Go an even step further and drive a shifter kart on the track. That's super feel.
The later year models have a revised steering, which has better-tuned steps of assist that vary depending on speed, etc., which makes it a bit lighter at parking speeds, and heavier at highway speeds.
09-25-2012, 02:21 PM
#4
Le Mans Master
I think to elaborate as well, many people don't understand that driving fast changes based upon the platform. Fast driving line certainly changes as well.
With the smaller platform Miata's and S2k's, you're taking a much tighter line versus taking more of a power line with a Corvette. It really comes down to the fact you need to exploit the strengths of the platform to make it perform.
With Corvettes...they have a heavy feel, but if you keep pushing them and pushing them...you'll be surprised how far they'd go. I LOVE my wifes S2000...and I mean love. It's small, very quick...almost twitchy, but is so predictable. Low torque, I can dive it and just jump full throttle and drive it out. My Z06 is heavier, but is just a pure aggressor...lots of brakes, huge grip, but requires care at full throttle to balance that circle of traction upon exit.
Point is, don't be too quick to judge it off the cuff until you get to know it. Once you do...get back in a Miata. You'll immediately respond to that direct feel in a positive way, but you'll realize all the shortcomings as well. I LOVE our S2000, but my Z06 will eat it for breakfast...everywhere...except for maybe a tight autocross track.
So...if autocross is your basis and background...Corvette will feel big and bulky. Corvettes don't belong on cone courses though, they need the big boy track....
With the smaller platform Miata's and S2k's, you're taking a much tighter line versus taking more of a power line with a Corvette. It really comes down to the fact you need to exploit the strengths of the platform to make it perform.
With Corvettes...they have a heavy feel, but if you keep pushing them and pushing them...you'll be surprised how far they'd go. I LOVE my wifes S2000...and I mean love. It's small, very quick...almost twitchy, but is so predictable. Low torque, I can dive it and just jump full throttle and drive it out. My Z06 is heavier, but is just a pure aggressor...lots of brakes, huge grip, but requires care at full throttle to balance that circle of traction upon exit.
Point is, don't be too quick to judge it off the cuff until you get to know it. Once you do...get back in a Miata. You'll immediately respond to that direct feel in a positive way, but you'll realize all the shortcomings as well. I LOVE our S2000, but my Z06 will eat it for breakfast...everywhere...except for maybe a tight autocross track.
So...if autocross is your basis and background...Corvette will feel big and bulky. Corvettes don't belong on cone courses though, they need the big boy track....
Last edited by RC000E; 09-25-2012 at 02:23 PM.
09-25-2012, 02:34 PM
#5
I have the same basic car as the OP.... I like the steering feel (heavy) at speed, seems to give good feedback, at least to me...It is certainly boosted and easier at parking lot speeds but firms up as you get going... I personally would not want the overboosted feeling some cars can give.
09-25-2012, 02:39 PM
#6
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The 2009 has variable assist, variable ratio power steering, in addition to the tighter steering gear introduced in 2008. A 6/09 Car and Driver report on Hancook V12 said they felt somewhat soft and imprecise, and they came in fourth in autocrossing. Also check your tire pressure, with the advent of cooler Fall weather you might be a couple pounds under optimum when cold.
09-25-2012, 02:41 PM
#7
Drifting
The very best steering "feel" I've experienced has been in the older BMW M3s and Porsche 911s. You can literally feel what each wheel is doing on the pavement, through the steering wheel. I don't know how they do that, but it's fantastic. NO Corvette I've driven has felt remotely close to that, nor have any other domestic brands/makes I've driven. It seems like it's a different philosophy in the way the Germans set up their steering and suspension geometry compared to everyone else.
09-25-2012, 03:13 PM
#9
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St. Jude Donor '13
We had a 2006 Z51 (traded at 44,000 miles), which would be identical to the OP. Later, we traded it for a 2009 Z51 (now 51,000 miles).
To me, the 2009 steering is much nicer- lighter but more precise. From the first day we owned the 2006, I thought the steering was just a bit heavy, and the car was difficult to keep in my lane for long periods on the Interstate. Different alignment settings didn't improve it very much.
The replacement steering racks now being made for the 2005-2007 cars have the tighter tolerances of the 2008+ cars, so a new rack ($$$) would help somewhat. The other parts were redesigned in such a way that you can't swap them in, the GM engineers said that wouldn't work and could even be dangerous.
Alignment can help; toe-out will make the car twitchy but "more responsive", I wouldn't bother. 0 toe might be a good compromise, we have just a little toe-IN front and rear which makes the 2009 more stable on the highway but probably would make the 2007 feel more sluggish.
To me, the 2009 steering is much nicer- lighter but more precise. From the first day we owned the 2006, I thought the steering was just a bit heavy, and the car was difficult to keep in my lane for long periods on the Interstate. Different alignment settings didn't improve it very much.
The replacement steering racks now being made for the 2005-2007 cars have the tighter tolerances of the 2008+ cars, so a new rack ($$$) would help somewhat. The other parts were redesigned in such a way that you can't swap them in, the GM engineers said that wouldn't work and could even be dangerous.
Alignment can help; toe-out will make the car twitchy but "more responsive", I wouldn't bother. 0 toe might be a good compromise, we have just a little toe-IN front and rear which makes the 2009 more stable on the highway but probably would make the 2007 feel more sluggish.
09-25-2012, 03:47 PM
#10
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Just to clear things up, I'm not looking for an easier to turn wheel... I want to know where I'm turning and what the wheels are doing. I have read reviews on the Hankook V12 as well and it's possible I would get a better feel with better tires, so when those are used up, I'll get Nitto NT01 or NT05, or some kind of R tires.
I do lots of Autocross, but also drive the Vette everywhere. I don't want to guess where the turn is, I want to know it, control it and go precisely where I want. I had slight toe out in my allignment, but because I do lots of highway, I brought it back to as neutral as possible. That's one compromise I have to make. When at the track or Autocross, I have accepted that compromise.
The mass of the whole system (Wheels, brakes and all) does have something to do with it, but I know there's more to it than that. I'll just have to find a GS at the dealership and test that out. I want to try out a Porsche as well, not to buy but to compare.
List of options so far:
1: Tires, get better. Rims, get lighter?
2: try newer model.
3: look into price of new steering assembly...
I do lots of Autocross, but also drive the Vette everywhere. I don't want to guess where the turn is, I want to know it, control it and go precisely where I want. I had slight toe out in my allignment, but because I do lots of highway, I brought it back to as neutral as possible. That's one compromise I have to make. When at the track or Autocross, I have accepted that compromise.
The mass of the whole system (Wheels, brakes and all) does have something to do with it, but I know there's more to it than that. I'll just have to find a GS at the dealership and test that out. I want to try out a Porsche as well, not to buy but to compare.
List of options so far:
1: Tires, get better. Rims, get lighter?
2: try newer model.
3: look into price of new steering assembly...
09-25-2012, 03:54 PM
#11
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St. Jude Donor '15
"In honor of jpee"
how long have you had your '07? it looks like, a long time, but I don't want to guess at it. when you talk Miata and FRS, you are talking a 2500 lb. and 2800 lb. car for each. the C6 is at least 300-400 lbs. more. that is a lot of added weight.
and don't discount your tires and how they react to your a) alignment, b) tire pressure, and c) mileage on tires. just because the brand and model are great on one car, doesn't translate necessarily to any other car---even the same car with a few more doo-dads on it.
and don't discount your tires and how they react to your a) alignment, b) tire pressure, and c) mileage on tires. just because the brand and model are great on one car, doesn't translate necessarily to any other car---even the same car with a few more doo-dads on it.
09-25-2012, 04:39 PM
#12
The very best steering "feel" I've experienced has been in the older BMW M3s and Porsche 911s. You can literally feel what each wheel is doing on the pavement, through the steering wheel. I don't know how they do that, but it's fantastic. NO Corvette I've driven has felt remotely close to that, nor have any other domestic brands/makes I've driven. It seems like it's a different philosophy in the way the Germans set up their steering and suspension geometry compared to everyone else.
100%My 330Ci is > 400 lbs heavier than my GS and the Bimmer steering feel (weighting) is miles better. I get used to the GS when I drive it frequently but realize in seconds of getting in the Bimmer how inadequate it is.
If there is a way to improve it, I'm in.
09-25-2012, 04:50 PM
#13
Sr.Random input generator
What is the width of 330Ci's front tires? Grand Sport's front tires (275) are wider than even some of the other rear-drive car's rear tires! My brother's Z51's steering is considerably lighter and its front tires' width is 245 mm.
09-25-2012, 05:21 PM
#15
Race Director
I have a 2007 C6 base with Z51. Can someone explain why I'm driving a truck and not a sports car? What can I do to fix this?
Is the car too heavy? Are the stock wheels (tires 245/40r17) too heavy? Is it my tires? (Hankook V12). My allignment shouldn't be the problem, it's done to a specified degree, not vaguely on specs.
I didn't try an 08+ yet, but I've read they have improved steering feel? If so, what parts would I need and are they interchangeable with the 07?
I drove a Miata for the past 6 years, lighter car and lighter tires, superb steering feel. Just tried a Scion FRS at autocross this weekend, it was even a better feel than the Miata! Is the difference the weight alone? I doubt it. Is it made that way because it can reach very high speeds and it's better for that? Hard to beat a BMW for steering feel bit easy for maintenance coats. Miata is better at steering. That is a big reason they are a hit with the autocross fans. I can't fit in one comfortably though. My friend loves his Pfadt equipped 07 Z51. Parts are not cheap though.
Help please!
Is the car too heavy? Are the stock wheels (tires 245/40r17) too heavy? Is it my tires? (Hankook V12). My allignment shouldn't be the problem, it's done to a specified degree, not vaguely on specs.
I didn't try an 08+ yet, but I've read they have improved steering feel? If so, what parts would I need and are they interchangeable with the 07?
I drove a Miata for the past 6 years, lighter car and lighter tires, superb steering feel. Just tried a Scion FRS at autocross this weekend, it was even a better feel than the Miata! Is the difference the weight alone? I doubt it. Is it made that way because it can reach very high speeds and it's better for that? Hard to beat a BMW for steering feel bit easy for maintenance coats. Miata is better at steering. That is a big reason they are a hit with the autocross fans. I can't fit in one comfortably though. My friend loves his Pfadt equipped 07 Z51. Parts are not cheap though.
Help please!
09-25-2012, 05:24 PM
#16
Drifting
BMW engineers a lot of caster into their steering/suspension geometry, mounts the rack directly to the subframe, and uses recirculating ball and progressive power steering pump (or at least they used to). The caster probably has the most effect.
It's not the different size tires.
It's not the different size tires.
09-25-2012, 05:29 PM
#17
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I have a 2007 C6 base with Z51. Can someone explain why I'm driving a truck and not a sports car? What can I do to fix this?
Is the car too heavy? Are the stock wheels (tires 245/40r17) too heavy? Is it my tires? (Hankook V12). My allignment shouldn't be the problem, it's done to a specified degree, not vaguely on specs.
I didn't try an 08+ yet, but I've read they have improved steering feel? If so, what parts would I need and are they interchangeable with the 07?
I drove a Miata for the past 6 years, lighter car and lighter tires, superb steering feel. Just tried a Scion FRS at autocross this weekend, it was even a better feel than the Miata! Is the difference the weight alone? I doubt it. Is it made that way because it can reach very high speeds and it's better for that?
Help please!
Is the car too heavy? Are the stock wheels (tires 245/40r17) too heavy? Is it my tires? (Hankook V12). My allignment shouldn't be the problem, it's done to a specified degree, not vaguely on specs.
I didn't try an 08+ yet, but I've read they have improved steering feel? If so, what parts would I need and are they interchangeable with the 07?
I drove a Miata for the past 6 years, lighter car and lighter tires, superb steering feel. Just tried a Scion FRS at autocross this weekend, it was even a better feel than the Miata! Is the difference the weight alone? I doubt it. Is it made that way because it can reach very high speeds and it's better for that?
Help please!
09-26-2012, 09:30 AM
#20
Safety Car
I had a 03 for ten years. Took it to VIR, for the HPDE. I have only had my 2013 for 3 months and 3K miles.
In both of my vettes I feel/felt totally in control and comfortable with the steering feel. Both are base coupes, totally stock, with MN6. So they drive as the engineers, designers set them up to drive.
In both of my vettes I feel/felt totally in control and comfortable with the steering feel. Both are base coupes, totally stock, with MN6. So they drive as the engineers, designers set them up to drive.