Mid engine test mule spotted...
Racer
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 400
Likes: 28
From: St. Paul (smokey!) MN
I don't understand the claim that the engine needs to be put in the middle to get better performance. It is done for weight distribution, not improved engine output.
The consequence of going mid engine is likely to be smaller engines, otherwise the car will either be very big, or have much less cabin room. You don't gain any trunk space. You may gain a cubbyhole up front, but will mostly be taken up by radiators, steering rack, and all the other stuff up that still needs to be there. Add AWD and there won't be much space at all.
What is the definition of mid engine? The current engine is between the axles, and weight distribution is nearly 50/50.
The consequence of going mid engine is likely to be smaller engines, otherwise the car will either be very big, or have much less cabin room. You don't gain any trunk space. You may gain a cubbyhole up front, but will mostly be taken up by radiators, steering rack, and all the other stuff up that still needs to be there. Add AWD and there won't be much space at all.
What is the definition of mid engine? The current engine is between the axles, and weight distribution is nearly 50/50.
Drifting
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,540
Likes: 79
From: Houston, Tx
St. Jude Donor '11-'12-'13-'14
That's right!
Too bad GM didn't get the mid engine business right in the Fiero...but it was a good test platform.
Just like the Corvair was a test platform for independant rear suspension.
IRS was in Corvair right from the start in 1960 - but this technology only 1st appeared in Corvettes from 1963.
Too bad GM didn't get the mid engine business right in the Fiero...but it was a good test platform.
Just like the Corvair was a test platform for independant rear suspension.
IRS was in Corvair right from the start in 1960 - but this technology only 1st appeared in Corvettes from 1963.
Safety Car
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,148
Likes: 392
I don't understand the claim that the engine needs to be put in the middle to get better performance. It is done for weight distribution, not improved engine output.
The consequence of going mid engine is likely to be smaller engines, otherwise the car will either be very big, or have much less cabin room. You don't gain any trunk space. You may gain a cubbyhole up front, but will mostly be taken up by radiators, steering rack, and all the other stuff up that still needs to be there. Add AWD and there won't be much space at all.
What is the definition of mid engine? The current engine is between the axles, and weight distribution is nearly 50/50.
The consequence of going mid engine is likely to be smaller engines, otherwise the car will either be very big, or have much less cabin room. You don't gain any trunk space. You may gain a cubbyhole up front, but will mostly be taken up by radiators, steering rack, and all the other stuff up that still needs to be there. Add AWD and there won't be much space at all.
What is the definition of mid engine? The current engine is between the axles, and weight distribution is nearly 50/50.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 6,268
Likes: 113
From: Texas
I don't understand the claim that the engine needs to be put in the middle to get better performance. It is done for weight distribution, not improved engine output.
The consequence of going mid engine is likely to be smaller engines, otherwise the car will either be very big, or have much less cabin room. You don't gain any trunk space. You may gain a cubbyhole up front, but will mostly be taken up by radiators, steering rack, and all the other stuff up that still needs to be there. Add AWD and there won't be much space at all.
What is the definition of mid engine? The current engine is between the axles, and weight distribution is nearly 50/50.
The consequence of going mid engine is likely to be smaller engines, otherwise the car will either be very big, or have much less cabin room. You don't gain any trunk space. You may gain a cubbyhole up front, but will mostly be taken up by radiators, steering rack, and all the other stuff up that still needs to be there. Add AWD and there won't be much space at all.
What is the definition of mid engine? The current engine is between the axles, and weight distribution is nearly 50/50.
Racer
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 400
Likes: 28
From: St. Paul (smokey!) MN
I have some suspicion that with the looming 50 mpg fleet requirement, big powerful engines will soon be extinct, and moving to a small mid engine platform may be an attempt to compensate and keep the corvette alive.
Last edited by Lazarus Long; Jan 12, 2015 at 10:40 AM.
Racer
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 400
Likes: 28
From: St. Paul (smokey!) MN
I'm not saying there are no advantages to mid engine, I'm saying higher output engines is not one them, which some seem to be claiming. And I'm not convinced it is worth the disadvantages.
Safety Car
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,148
Likes: 392
And you are ignoring practical considerations, like some people drive places other than a track, and sometimes take stuff with them.
I'm not saying there are no advantages to mid engine, I'm saying higher output engines is not one them, which some seem to be claiming. And I'm not convinced it is worth the disadvantages.
I'm not saying there are no advantages to mid engine, I'm saying higher output engines is not one them, which some seem to be claiming. And I'm not convinced it is worth the disadvantages.
I have traveled in a 430 Ferrari on long distance road trips and we find it allows luggage for 2 people. If you need to "take stuff " buy a minivan.
Porsche Cayman-Boxster have front and rear trucks, both are mid engine My Pantera had front and rear trunks, also v8 mid engine..
Not trying to convince you about anything, but, mid engine packaging can include high horsepower engines and room for your "stuff", plus state of the art handling dynamic's way beyond front engine placement.
This debate jumps from cargo storage area to high performance depending on what side people want to be on . You can get more comfort and cargo area in an Escalade, but you get more performance in a mid engine configuration. Both are a compromise in each other's area.
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Racer
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 400
Likes: 28
From: St. Paul (smokey!) MN
Engine output has no bearing on placement of the engine.
I have traveled in a 430 Ferrari on long distance road trips and we find it allows luggage for 2 people. If you need to "take stuff " buy a minivan.
Porsche Cayman-Boxster have front and rear trucks, both are mid engine My Pantera had front and rear trunks, also v8 mid engine..
Not trying to convince you about anything, but, mid engine packaging can include high horsepower engines and room for your "stuff", plus state of the art handling dynamic's way beyond front engine placement.
This debate jumps from cargo storage area to high performance depending on what side people want to be on . You can get more comfort and cargo area in an Escalade, but you get more performance in a mid engine configuration. Both are a compromise in each other's area.
I have traveled in a 430 Ferrari on long distance road trips and we find it allows luggage for 2 people. If you need to "take stuff " buy a minivan.
Porsche Cayman-Boxster have front and rear trucks, both are mid engine My Pantera had front and rear trunks, also v8 mid engine..
Not trying to convince you about anything, but, mid engine packaging can include high horsepower engines and room for your "stuff", plus state of the art handling dynamic's way beyond front engine placement.
This debate jumps from cargo storage area to high performance depending on what side people want to be on . You can get more comfort and cargo area in an Escalade, but you get more performance in a mid engine configuration. Both are a compromise in each other's area.
I do find my corvette to be very practical. It has a big enough trunk to carry my stuff, is fast enough, and handles good enough for me. It has more trunk space than either of the cayman's trunks separately, maybe even combined. The corvette trunk will hold bulkier stuff than the cayman will. The corvette has more legroom, I need a little more in the cayman to be comfortable.
I was never much interested in a sports car, they seemed impractical to me. My dad got his new cayman and had no need for the vert, so I have it now. I've been pleasantly surprised at how easy it is to live with.
I guess I've viewed the corvette as the sports car that can be used. I'm not opposed to going mid engined, as long as it doesn't lose the every day liveability. I have my doubts that it can be done and still keep the cost reasonable.
Safety Car
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,295
Likes: 153
From: Antioch Ca
Finalist 2020 C4 of the Year - Unmodified
I all for a mid engine vette thought I will never be able to afford such a version. I don't know with GM's reputation if many will be willing to buy a $150,000 Vette. They would expect better quality, finish and dealer service at that price point. Not sure GM can deliver that!
I like the artist rendering but I hope it looks a lot less like a Lotus which I think the rendering is very similar too. Maybe a clear window as well would be nice althought the LS motors are not very pretty.
I like the artist rendering but I hope it looks a lot less like a Lotus which I think the rendering is very similar too. Maybe a clear window as well would be nice althought the LS motors are not very pretty.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,079
Likes: 1,922
From: DFW, Tejas!
....I hope they don't call it a Corvette when it comes down to it. I don't even want that to be called a model of Corvette...like the ME Corvette Stingray.
Call it something else...like Fiero...
All kidding aside I have never been in a mid engine really fast sports car but what is it like inside driving it from a noise and odor/smell standpoint? The engine is right in there in the driving compartment with you does technology take care of those things?
Call it something else...like Fiero...
All kidding aside I have never been in a mid engine really fast sports car but what is it like inside driving it from a noise and odor/smell standpoint? The engine is right in there in the driving compartment with you does technology take care of those things?
The purpose of putting the engine in the middle (and making the cabin cramped) was to balance the weight front to rear. GM already did that when they moved the transmission to the rear in the C5. Putting them back together in the middle where the driver sits now is silly. There are a lot of things that could be done to really make a high performance C8. Imagine a 200hp electric motor mounted at each wheel location? The C6 has more than 200hp per driven tire and existing tire tech can handle that. 800 usable hp from off the shelf parts still having the same 50/50 weight balance of the C6. And the passenger cabin could be even larger. Mid-engine is 50 years behind the times. Ever driven a Fiero?
Drifting
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,307
Likes: 25
From: NY NY
The C8 Zora will come out just in time...Ford announced the new GT has been unveiled at the Detroit motor show, and it's packing at least 600bhp from a mid-mounted twin-turbo V6 engine for 2017.
Last edited by myfunz; Jan 12, 2015 at 10:06 PM.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 8,514
Likes: 235
From: Currently somewhere in IL,IN,KY,TN,MO,AR,MS,AL, or FL
It's fine, probably less noisy because there is no exhaust going under you.
That would be fine, if we drove cars by parking them on scales. You want the weight centered, not just balanced. Aside from dynamic weight distibution, the Corvette is a farking pendulum. While it's close to 50-50, it's got weight at the extreme ends, which isn't good for handling (or spinning when you screw up).
That would be fine, if we drove cars by parking them on scales. You want the weight centered, not just balanced. Aside from dynamic weight distibution, the Corvette is a farking pendulum. While it's close to 50-50, it's got weight at the extreme ends, which isn't good for handling (or spinning when you screw up).
Center of mass is center of mass. Yes, with two large masses divided on each side of the passenger compartment the car has more rotational inertia than if a single mass were located in the center of mass. But the difference is insignificant which is why this has been nothing but talk for more than 50 years. If isn't that GM can't figure out how to do it. It isn't that it is too expensive. It is that people won't buy it because it has too many disadvantages compared to the minor improvement in handling. Spend $200 more on a set of tires and you can handle better than a mid-engine version.
Race Director
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 13,592
Likes: 187
From: Hudson WI
NCM Sinkhole Donor
Trust me, been reading about mid engine Corvettes since the 60's, still haven't seen one.
Send me a PM when you see one at dealer.....
However, we did get the SSR Truck and the fake IMSA Monza. The SSR was built on a Trailblazer platform and the IMSA Monza, was a poor joke.
Send me a PM when you see one at dealer.....
However, we did get the SSR Truck and the fake IMSA Monza. The SSR was built on a Trailblazer platform and the IMSA Monza, was a poor joke.
Drifting
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 1,906
Likes: 51
From: Tampa Florida
Why would you say that? The whole reason for a mid engine design is for better performance. It allows for a more centralized weight distribution, and more importantly to put more weight over the rear wheels for better traction. I've read reports that the reason they are going to a mid engine flagship model is the fact that they are at the hitting the hp limit for a front engine platform.
Drifting
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 1,906
Likes: 51
From: Tampa Florida
I don't understand the claim that the engine needs to be put in the middle to get better performance. It is done for weight distribution, not improved engine output.
The consequence of going mid engine is likely to be smaller engines, otherwise the car will either be very big, or have much less cabin room. You don't gain any trunk space. You may gain a cubbyhole up front, but will mostly be taken up by radiators, steering rack, and all the other stuff up that still needs to be there. Add AWD and there won't be much space at all.
What is the definition of mid engine? The current engine is between the axles, and weight distribution is nearly 50/50.
The consequence of going mid engine is likely to be smaller engines, otherwise the car will either be very big, or have much less cabin room. You don't gain any trunk space. You may gain a cubbyhole up front, but will mostly be taken up by radiators, steering rack, and all the other stuff up that still needs to be there. Add AWD and there won't be much space at all.
What is the definition of mid engine? The current engine is between the axles, and weight distribution is nearly 50/50.
This model is going to be developed for the true sports car enthusiast, not just a corvette enthusiast. This is for those of us looking for the best performance can GM had ever made. This is not being developed for the guy asking "where are my golf clubs going to fit". That is why it will, IMHO, for a while at least, be sold alongside the C7 for the next 6-8 years as a limited hi-po car.
I had a Gallardo for about 4 years. I can't wait for a mid engine variant of the corvette, or whatever they want to classify it as. As far as fit and finish, GM really stepped up their game with the C7 as far as the interior goes and I imagine it would be even better on a car in the 150k range.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,079
Likes: 1,922
From: DFW, Tejas!
Noise? Ever driven a mid engine car with the engine a foot from your ear?
Center of mass is center of mass. Yes, with two large masses divided on each side of the passenger compartment the car has more rotational inertia than if a single mass were located in the center of mass. But the difference is insignificant which is why this has been nothing but talk for more than 50 years. If isn't that GM can't figure out how to do it. It isn't that it is too expensive. It is that people won't buy it because it has too many disadvantages compared to the minor improvement in handling. Spend $200 more on a set of tires and you can handle better than a mid-engine version.
Center of mass is center of mass. Yes, with two large masses divided on each side of the passenger compartment the car has more rotational inertia than if a single mass were located in the center of mass. But the difference is insignificant which is why this has been nothing but talk for more than 50 years. If isn't that GM can't figure out how to do it. It isn't that it is too expensive. It is that people won't buy it because it has too many disadvantages compared to the minor improvement in handling. Spend $200 more on a set of tires and you can handle better than a mid-engine version.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 8,514
Likes: 235
From: Currently somewhere in IL,IN,KY,TN,MO,AR,MS,AL, or FL
I am sorry if I used words that were too big. I will try again.
GM and their friends have built cars with engines in the center of the car. GM does not build cars with engines in the center any more. GM has learned that talking about a car with an engine in the center sells more cars than building them. When they build them people find out why they do not like them and then the people do not buy them.
GM and their friends have built cars with engines in the center of the car. GM does not build cars with engines in the center any more. GM has learned that talking about a car with an engine in the center sells more cars than building them. When they build them people find out why they do not like them and then the people do not buy them.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,079
Likes: 1,922
From: DFW, Tejas!
it was more the "center of mass is center of mass" nonsense and the difference being insignificant.
The Corvette handles like a front engine car. It does not behave like a mid engine car. The difference is not insignificant.
The Corvette handles like a front engine car. It does not behave like a mid engine car. The difference is not insignificant.