cclive

It's important to note that the name "Top Tier" is just a name...a trademark. Although it implies that there are "tiers" in the gasoline business, actually there are not. While there are standards attached to being included in the "Top Tier" group, as well as payments to join, there are no "tiers" and gasoline included in the group is not the "top" of these nonexistent tiers. It is a very well designed marketing tool...that's all.

Premiumspeed

I work in Gas Processing.


It's all a crap shoot. There is a mixed bag of gas in the underground storage tanks.


You will never know what you are actually purchasing or how old it is. Just because it's tested once a year doesn't mean they follow code every delivery.


Buy the cheapest gas from a big name company. It's really not different enough for you to tell and if someone tells you they can tell the difference, ignore them. The only time Gas is going to cause issues is when it gets mixed with water sitting in the underground tanks.


You will never know.


Enjoy your car.

LDB

My my. Quite an explosion of anti-oil-company cynics in the last few posts. Believe what you want, but the reality is that top tier does make a difference. I know, as I’m a retired chemical engineer who spent a career in the refining business, including actually seeing the results of engine testing. The standard, EPA-mandated additive package that comes with cheapo gas is not terrible. Your engine is not going to self destruct, nor will your car run horribly. But if you run an engine 50,000 miles on top tier versus EPA standard additive packages, the engine run on top tier will be noticeably cleaner. And a can of Techron now and then will not make the cheapo gas as clean either. Is it worth it to you? Your choice. But the difference is real.

As far as “it all comes from the same tank and/or pipeline and/or refinery”, that’s true in some parts of the country, not true in others. In general, if you are near a big refining center like Houston, LA, Chicago, and so forth, you’ll be getting gas from that company’s refinery, but in more remote areas, exchanges are sometimes made. However, regardless of where the base gas comes from, if you buy Top Tier, you always, 100% of the time, are getting that company’s additive package, and you will get the clean engine performance. If you buy cheapo, even if the base gas is coming from a Chevron or Shell or Exxon refinery, it will have the basic EPA-mandated additive package, so you will not be getting the extra clean engine performance.

Finally, it is not an oil company gimmick. It was started by auto companies to reduce their warranty costs. True, an oil company has to pay something to get its gas qualified. But the payment is to demonstrate via engine testing that their additive package meets the cleanliness standards. There is no profit to either auto or oil companies from those payments. They are strictly to run the testing.

gmtech1234

^^^^^^^^^ A good logical answer.

RocketDawg

Is there any chance that the local stations or distributors are cheating? By that I mean, is there a chance of an unscrupulous local Chevron station, or distributor, not actually adding the Top Tier package?

HOXXOH

Thanks for jumping in here with the real facts.

LS WON

So Arco fuel is no worse or better than Chevron?

HOXXOH

It's not a requirement for all top tier fuels to be identical, but they all have to meet the same minimum standards to be rated top tier.

LDB

I suppose my “100% of the time” statement goes very slightly too far. If you’d told me a month ago that VW would be intentionally cheating on diesel emissions, I’d of said you were nuts. Dishonest people do exist, sometimes more than we’d like to admit. But I refuse to believe it’s a widespread problem. Additives are added into the delivery trucks as they are being filled with gas at distribution terminals, so an individual station owner doesn’t have much control. Even if there’s a dishonest person or company somewhere in the chain, records ought to catch up with him somewhere. A dishonest delivery truck operator wouldn’t be buying enough additives to match his delivery volume, and if the station owner tried to buy some of his gas from a non-approved distributor, his sales volume wouldn’t match deliveries from the normal source.
As Hoxxoh says, all are not identical. But they all must demonstrate by actual engine testing that they meet the cleanliness standards. Once they get things that clean, further improvements in cleanliness are not very significant, particularly if you use top tier regularly. What very small differences there are in various top tier packages relate mostly to catch-up ability, namely, the ability to clean up a dirty engine that has been running on cheapo gas for 10’s of thousands of miles.

Cooter Tech

NO, NO,none at all! That is why there are no laws, regulators, regulations, inspections, tests, or standards for gas stations. They do a daily calibration of all pumps to insure that you get a full gallon too. That was my point about non description tanker trucks delivering fuel to the stations. But I have never had the misfortune of purchasing bad fuel in my 60 years of driving. I do buy name brand fuel and avoid the discount gas stations.

LDB

Looking back over your posts in this thread, as far as unmarked tanker trucks in post #3, the business has simply evolved to the point where delivery to the station is usually handled by third party contractors rather than the oil company itself. Not sure what you mean in #12 about charging extra for winter/summer blends. Yes, winter gas has higher vapor pressure (more butane) to help cars start easier on cold mornings, but that’s not a factor in pricing. Also from that post, I categorically guarantee you that no refinery ever shuts down intentionally in the summer months. Scheduled maintenance is always done in fall, winter, or early spring, never late spring or summer. If a refinery is down then, it’s because of a problem, not because of a choice. Think about it. Suppose you shut down your refinery to drive prices up. Then at the very time prices are up, your refinery is down, so you can’t benefit. It’s illogical to think that a summer refinery shutdown is intentional.

In post #18, the government has nothing whatever to do with top tier. It’s a private organization started by auto companies. And in post #30, I guess NO, NO, not at all really means Yes, Yes, of course. As I conceded in post #29, there are dishonest people out there, but systematic, widespread cheating at the senior corporate level like the VW diesel scandal is rare. Seems like your own observation that you’ve never gotten bad gas runs contrary to all your other little digs. But we do seemingly agree on one thing. I certainly support the notion that there need to be laws, regulations, and inspections to reduce the probability that the bad side of human nature will lead things astray. Sure, I think some regulations go too far, and many on the forum rant about that. While there’s certainly room for debate on which regulations are appropriate versus going too far, we’d pretty clearly be much worse off if all regulations suddenly went away.

Cooter Tech

Sorry, but I am skeptical of big business and things they do to save a buck. This is because in my area, gas prices go down because of the decease of oil prices, then they go up because of the switch to summer or winter blend mixture or change over to the different blends. A refinery early in the summer goes down for maintenance in a midwest state and fuel prices go up the next day because of gas shortages, when legislators began to complain and threaten about gas price gouging, the prices seemed to go down. If corporations would conduct business in a reputable manner, there would be no need for laws and regulations.

simplegto

I have seen the spread between 87 and 93 as high as a dollar. What would stop a small station owner from paying a delivery driver to dump 87 in the 93 tank? I have a few times thought I got lower octane than I paid for.

LDB

Price fluctuations are mostly driven by the commodities markets, not the oil companies, and they anticipate shortages. For example, if there’s a freeze in Florida, orange juice prices go up immediately, anticipating a shortage later. There’s obviously not a shortage yet. Same thing with an emergency summer refinery shutdown. As far as summer/winter blends, that continues to mystify me. I’ve never heard that story before, and can’t imagine any reason for it to occur. Perhaps the news media in your neck of the woods got hold of a rumor and won’t let it go. I certainly don’t believe that either corporations or people in general are squeaky clean. But I think most of the time, most people try to do the right thing. Regulations are there to protect us when they don’t, but I view them as the backstop or safety factor. I think it’s overly cynical to think that large numbers of people or corporations are constantly trying to dream up new and better ways to screw people. Most of the time, there are perfectly rational explanations for things.

SmileyOr

ARCO may have changed their mix of what they put into their gas lately, but I used to use their gas in my boat (outboard) 20 years ago. After one year of use I lost 2 cylinders. I had those 2 repaired and ran the engine only on non-ARCO gas like Chevron, Shell, Texaco and the third cylinder lasted another 6 years before it finally gave up.

I have never gone back to ARCO unless they were closest to a rental car agency I happened to be using. But I never put ARCO in any of my vehicles since then.

scott1094

LBD, with all due respect, I also live in Michigan and can concur completely with Cooter Tech. We are under the thumb of Speedway, Ashland, Marathon and prices do indeed get raised every fall for the winter blend, usually after a price spike while they "change over". They also have a habit at their branded stations of raising the price on Wed. or Thur. night by a dime or more just to catch the weekend buyers. By Mon. or Tues. the price has fallen a little and they do it again a few days later. I also can't understand why if there is a supply price spike stations raise their price immediately. Price drop and the price drops slowly by a penny or so every few days. The excuse is always the same. They bought the gas in their tank when the price was high and they can't afford to take the loss selling at the new price. Do they never have gas in their tanks when the price goes up??? I call B/S on that one and can't understand why the media accepts it over and over again.
On another note. You have often written about the cost gap between regular and premium. And, while I found your explanation interesting and insightful, I was just a bit (a very little bit) unsure just how accurate it was. Two days ago there was a published study about what people were doing with the money in their gasoline savings since the price drop. More that 46% of people used that savings to upgrade from regular to premium. Even when their vehicle did not require premium or experience had shown that their vehicle ran just fine on regular. Kudos on that observation LBD, you were spot on.

Scott

LDB

Two things prevent that. First, you’d get caught quickly. Enough people really need premium that they would notice knocking and complain. Your station would be then be tested, and you’d be in deep trouble. Second, the refinery only charges and gets paid slightly more than the extra cost of making premium. The cost is about 5-10 cents per gallon and the refineries only get a penny or so more than that. So if the gas station owner took a chance and had regular put in his premium tank, he’d only be saving about 10 cents per gallon, not the huge markups that you see in the retail price. The huge markups go to the marketing outfit. They price premium extra high so they can charge and advertise a lower price on regular.

LDB

Since two Michigan people have mentioned the winter blend price increase, and I have no experience with those companies or Michigan, I can’t very well deny it. But I can’t imagine what drives it. If anything, winter gas should be cheaper, both because there is less demand in the winter, and because the butane that is used to raise vapor pressure in the winter is cheaper than gasoline. Indeed, I Googled the question and found that several states are considering allowing the switch to winter gas earlier than usual to lower prices because winter gas is pretty universally recognized as being cheaper. I found a few references to currently high Michigan prices due to operating problems at BP’s Whiting refinery, but that has nothing to do with winter. So I’m at a loss. I still think there’s some possibility that somebody in the media has gotten hold of a false explanation for high Michigan winter gas prices and keeps passing it around. But I can’t rule out the possibility that there is something unusual about Michigan butane supply and/or regulations. I just couldn’t find anything, either from my past experience or a 10 minute internet search.

On your other topic, people buying premium who don’t need it drive the price up for those of us who do need it. I don’t remember the exact statistics, but I think less than 5% of cars actually need premium, while premium sales run about 25% for the majors. Independents sell less premium, but I don’t know the exact figures. But for those of us who actually need premium, it sure would be nice if the dummies would stop buying it so the price would fall closer to the true extra cost of making it, which is in the range of 5-10 cents (a bit more than that in the west due to California’s olefins regulations that make it more costly to generate octane there).

Cooter Tech

They do say that winter blends are cheaper to produce, but I don't think the consumer will ever see it, as the refineries are very slow to reduce prices, but quick to raise them. The refineries also seem to always create a shortage while converting the different blends, causing price changes. My area gas prices are about 2.25 for regular, which is not too bad. I say refineries only because I do not know if it is the gas station, distributor or the refineries that ultimately control the price of gas.

Hey Joe

I usually get the best gas from Taco Bell...