LDB

I think it’s about time to agree to disagree on the remaining point. I’ve explained most of your issues, but I admit that I have no clue why Michigan gas prices should increase in the winter. Unless there’s something weird about Michigan regulations that I don’t know about, winter blends are cheaper to make, demand is lower, and blend switchover shortage makes no sense. I’ll even concede that I can’t rule out the remote possibility that there is collusion, dishonesty, and/or gouging going on. As I said in an earlier post, if you’d told me a month ago that VW systematically and knowingly cheated on diesel emissions tests, I’d of said you were nuts. But I was high enough in the organization of the oil company I worked for to know of its fundamental integrity, and I’m enough of an optimist to think that both with mine and with other oil companies, sinister explanations are among the least likely.

Larry Myers

Ahh, the voice of reason and knowledge floats to the top. How refreshing.

Suns_PSD

The fuel here in Austin is dumped in to private contractors haul trucks at the racks in east Austin. It all comes by pipeline from Deer Park (near Houston) and at that stage, it's all the same.

They add the additives right there at the racks based on what the customer (the fuel station) pays for/ requires. I am well aware as I sell these haul trucks. The driver's have told me they won't use anything besides Chevron in their personal gasoline vehicles.

Anyways, as far as quantity of additives, yes Chevron gets way more of the stuff. I assume that is better.

LDB

I certainly won’t attack Chevron. It is a fine gas and Techron is a fine additive package. But one should not equate quantity of additives with effectiveness. The actual additive content of any additive package is small. Most of it is carrier, meaning solvent required to keep the active ingredients in solution. Techron may well require more solvent to keep it in solution, hence the tanker driver thinks he is adding more. But the key is not quantity of additive package added, it is the effectiveness of the package. All top tier brands must demonstrate very high levels of cleanliness in actual engine testing. My actual observation of engine testing at my company stopped with retirement 5 years ago. At that time, Chevron/Techron was neither top nor bottom among the top tier brands. While I can no longer say it from first hand observation of actual data, odds are, that statement remains true today. And more importantly, any and all top tier brands will keep your engine very clean.

HOXXOH

Since my issue with ARCO was 7 years ago, when I assume they hadn't qualified to meet the top tier specs, and was related to the fuel tank sending unit, does the top tier fuel get tested for those types of conditions?
In one respect, nearly every fuel gauge complaint on this forum, seems to have been resolved by the use of Techron in either the bottle form or the continued use of Chevron. People are quick to blame GM for using bad sensors, but the evidence points to the fuel.
Any knowledge in that area?

LS WON

LDB

I know of one problem with gas gauges, but do not know if this is the whole story. When the regulations started requiring gas to have less than 30ppm sulfur in 2005, refineries installed gasoline desulfurization units. It was not known at the time that there was a particular combination of operating circumstances that caused very small amounts of very chemically aggressive sulfur to be formed. When that happened, the gas would still be on spec regarding 30ppm total sulfur, but the type of sulfur was very reactive and could cause gas gauges to fail. As that phenomenon became better understood, we became better at avoiding the combinations of circumstances that caused it to happen. It was not something that occurred slowly over a long time, it happened quickly if you got a batch of gas where the desulfurizers were operating in that specific regime.

What I don’t know is whether there are other problems that can also cause gas gauge issues. It’s possible to believe this is the only problem, and the fact that these issues still crop up from time to time indicates that while refineries are getting better at avoiding the regime, they are not yet perfect at it. It’s also possible to believe there is some other problem causing the continuing gas gauge issues. The curious thing is, while I don’t have access to repair data on all gas gauges, it certainly seems to be more of a problem with Vettes than other cars. That would imply that Vettes either use different materials in their gauges, or something else about the Vette gas gauge installation is different. My company only had one incident where cars in general were affected and we paid for those repairs. But occasional Vette problems apparently continue to occur. Having retired 5 years ago, I don’t have any recent statistics.

You asked whether we tested gas gauges and the answer is mostly no, not in our routine engine testing program. We did try a variety of additives on failed gauges to see if anything would fix them. I don’t remember whether any Vette gauges were among those tested, but I do remember there was not much difference in the effectiveness of the various additives. Sometimes they helped, and other times not, depending on how severe an incident the gauge had been exposed to. Techron probably has the good reputation on the forum because it is the one that is most available over the counter, but it was no better than others in fixing a failed gauge. With this kind of problem, small, preventive doses used all the time would not help. The problem was not something that built up slowly, all the time. It was something that happened all at once from a batch of gas where the desulfurizer was operating in the specific regime. Then, depending on how severe the incident was, a heavy dose of any detergent, Techron or others, might help. So my advice would be, if your gas gauge fails, by all means, try a can of Techron or some other additive. It’s cheap and might help. But there’s no point in dosing continuously as a preventive measure, as that’s not the kind of problem it is.

Cooter Tech

Did they do any testing on fuel stabilizers for winter storage, three to four months? Are any over the counter additives harmful to the engine or components, thanks for the feedback.

LDB

We didn’t do any testing on those issues since we didn’t sell any of those products. On stabilizers, just be sure that if your gas contains ethanol, you do not use a stabilizer based on IPA. Those worked fine in the gasoline-only days, but will not prevent water separation if ethanol is present. I’ve seen at least one stabilizer that claims compatibility with ethanol but is based on IPA, so an “OK for ethanol” claim on the label doesn’t necessarily mean ok. Stabilizer manufacturers claim a laundry list of benefits that you don’t need, and IPA based products may provide some of those unneeded “benefits” even with ethanol. But only water separation in storage matters, so if ethanol is in your gas, you must avoid IPA to get any benefit on the issue that matters. If the can’s label seems vague, see if their web site has a material safety data sheet (MSDS). That will usually tell. Also remember that stabilizer is only an issue for storage over the winter. It’s a waste of money in routine use. Usually even in winter storage, you will be ok without stabilizer, but stabilizer gives you insurance against being unlucky enough to get a last tank of gas with dissolved water, and then having the temperature drop substantially.

scott1094

LDB,
Just want to take a minute to offer my thanks for all the great information you share. I can tell by the way you phrase your responses that you are walking a fine line between fact for us and perhaps problems for yourself. You have given me much to think about and a much better understanding of the fuels we put in our tank. Continued good health and enjoy your retirement and Vette.

Scott

LouieM

My '07 and '67 Vettes and '06 Miata love Valero, have for years. Sell your duffus truck and get something decent.

Mikado463

sorry, that's inadequate , you'll need the .50 S&W ...........

LDB

Thanks. I wouldn’t say I never got in warm water for raising uncomfortable issues. But my experience was that as long as it was done on a rational basis with intent to help, things eventually worked out for the best.

cclive

I don't use ARCO gasoline because it is now a brand of BP and I think BP is a poorly run company. ARCO is a long way from when it was headquartered in the ARCO plaza in downtown LA. With a product that is as generic as gasoline, I have to like the company and its' record in order to buy the product. BP is a lousy company, so it's easy for me to avoid its' gasoline.

Gearhead Jim

With all that Walmart gas, your car must be speaking Chinese.

Side note-
With all the discussion in this thread about business ethics in the U.S, my experience over there indicates that the term "Chinese Business Ethics" is an oxymoron.

TxLefty

Same here. If they are on the list I don't believe they have been there long. Best price in my area for top tier is QT.

TxLefty

Just guessing, but the winter blend specified by the EPA for your area may be something that for whatever reason is not made by local refineries or may be "special" in some manner we are not aware of. It's hard to know. We need to get rid of ethanol and get back to straight summer/winter, high altitude/low altitude blends.

scott1094

Amen on the alcohol going away. As far as a fuel it serves a purpose when high octane ratings are required but for daily driving I think it is a waste of both corn and gasoline (petroleum) to produce the stuff. Politics most surely is at the bottom of this idea. Here in Michigan the price difference between E-10 and (basic unleaded regular) and E-85 is down to $.10 per gallon. Why would anyone give up 30% of their potential mileage for less than a 5% savings?

Scott

cclive

My understanding is that it takes 4 gallons of diesel to farm the corn to produce a gallon of ethanol. Government subsidies make up the difference. Crazy.

bikingles

[QUOTE=LS WON;1590716392]That is what ARCO advertises now for months. Has anyone here used it with any problems or no problems using it?
I know Chevron gasoline is the preferred gas here on forum.
I've been using Costco Premium since June when I got my car and it runs great. Also less expensive then the branded stations.