Amsoil= Awesome
Drifting
Joined: May 2015
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From: Martinez CA
Thanks for sharing your knowledge 
While we got you here, do you know if there has been any formula changes due to changes in oxygenates (MTBE to ethanol) if that was necessary? Or changes to additives link zinc, etc to extend catalyst life?
TIA
While we got you here, do you know if there has been any formula changes due to changes in oxygenates (MTBE to ethanol) if that was necessary? Or changes to additives link zinc, etc to extend catalyst life?
TIA
I’ve written many posts on the topic of “real” synthetics. I’m a chemical engineer, retired from a career in the refining business. The original synthetics were poly-alpha-olefins, which were molecules that started out as dino oil, were then cracked all the way down to ethylene, and then built back up into lubricants. They were (and are) very good as base oils.
The stuff that people rant and rave about as being fake synthetic starts out as dino oil, but goes through extremely severe processing called hydrocracking to remove all of the aromatics, sulfur, and nitrogen in dino oil. Those are the bad components, and they are totally gone, literally to zero, in the “fake” synthetic. There is only one type of molecule left that is somewhat worse than the “real” synthetics, namely naphthenes. But those molecules aren’t nearly as bad as aromatics, sulfur, and nitrogen, and there aren’t many of them anyway. So if you said the “real” synthetics were 10 and dino oil was 1 on some scale of quality, the “fake” synthetics would be about 9.8 or 9.9. So in the infamous Castrol/Mobil lawsuit, the judge ruled that the “fake” synthetics could call themselves full synthetics.
Once that was done, everyone started using various mixes of the “real” and “fake” synthetics in what they marketed as full synthetic oil. There is no oil out there any more that is 100% “real” synthetic. Not Amsoil, not Redline, not Pennzoil Platinum, not Mobil 1, not any of them. They all use blend of “real” and “fake” synthetics. Two factors are most important in making them better than dino oil, and the two things are equally true of both “real” and “fake” synthetics. They both have zero aromatics, sulfur, and nitrogen, and they both have very high VI, which means they do not need much, if any VI improver additive, which isn’t very robust, and is the biggest single Achilles’ heel of motor oils.
What is marketed as a synthetic blend, as opposed to a full synthetic is different and inferior. Rather than being a blend of “real” and “fake” synthetics as described above, it is a blend of synthetics and dino oil. The dino oil brings in non-trivial amounts of aromatics, sulfur, and nitrogen, and because its VI is lower, requires much more of the non-robust VI improver additive.
So my advice to people is to use a full synthetic, not worry about the “real” versus “fake” synthetic issue, but also not confuse it with oils marketed as synthetic blends, which really are inferior. As to which brand of full synthetic, I stay out of that one. Some people swear by the boutiques like Amsoil or Redline, while others go with the big oil companies. I personally prefer the latter because they have bigger budgets to do actual engine testing, but I don’t think you’ll go wrong with any of them. Pretty much any full synthetic is going to be better than any synthetic blend or dino oil, and since even with dino oil, oil-related failures are rare, odds you will get in trouble with any full synthetic are very low.
The stuff that people rant and rave about as being fake synthetic starts out as dino oil, but goes through extremely severe processing called hydrocracking to remove all of the aromatics, sulfur, and nitrogen in dino oil. Those are the bad components, and they are totally gone, literally to zero, in the “fake” synthetic. There is only one type of molecule left that is somewhat worse than the “real” synthetics, namely naphthenes. But those molecules aren’t nearly as bad as aromatics, sulfur, and nitrogen, and there aren’t many of them anyway. So if you said the “real” synthetics were 10 and dino oil was 1 on some scale of quality, the “fake” synthetics would be about 9.8 or 9.9. So in the infamous Castrol/Mobil lawsuit, the judge ruled that the “fake” synthetics could call themselves full synthetics.
Once that was done, everyone started using various mixes of the “real” and “fake” synthetics in what they marketed as full synthetic oil. There is no oil out there any more that is 100% “real” synthetic. Not Amsoil, not Redline, not Pennzoil Platinum, not Mobil 1, not any of them. They all use blend of “real” and “fake” synthetics. Two factors are most important in making them better than dino oil, and the two things are equally true of both “real” and “fake” synthetics. They both have zero aromatics, sulfur, and nitrogen, and they both have very high VI, which means they do not need much, if any VI improver additive, which isn’t very robust, and is the biggest single Achilles’ heel of motor oils.
What is marketed as a synthetic blend, as opposed to a full synthetic is different and inferior. Rather than being a blend of “real” and “fake” synthetics as described above, it is a blend of synthetics and dino oil. The dino oil brings in non-trivial amounts of aromatics, sulfur, and nitrogen, and because its VI is lower, requires much more of the non-robust VI improver additive.
So my advice to people is to use a full synthetic, not worry about the “real” versus “fake” synthetic issue, but also not confuse it with oils marketed as synthetic blends, which really are inferior. As to which brand of full synthetic, I stay out of that one. Some people swear by the boutiques like Amsoil or Redline, while others go with the big oil companies. I personally prefer the latter because they have bigger budgets to do actual engine testing, but I don’t think you’ll go wrong with any of them. Pretty much any full synthetic is going to be better than any synthetic blend or dino oil, and since even with dino oil, oil-related failures are rare, odds you will get in trouble with any full synthetic are very low.
Last edited by Chiselchst; Sep 15, 2016 at 05:56 PM.
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2014
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From: Below the bottom of Berby Hollow, NYS
As usual, with car waxes, computers, phones, foods, etc. etc. etc. -- including lubricants -- no manufacturer has any real game-changing secrets.
And as for testing anything, anecdotal examples are pretty worthless.
And of course the old scientific standard that correlation does not prove causation always holds true (like the elephant gun example someone posted above.)
"I have a 2005 Zephyr with 200,000 miles on it and I've only ever run Quiky-Jack's Secret Motor Oil and the engine has no wear. Therefore Quiky-Jack's is a superior oil."
And as for testing anything, anecdotal examples are pretty worthless.
And of course the old scientific standard that correlation does not prove causation always holds true (like the elephant gun example someone posted above.)
"I have a 2005 Zephyr with 200,000 miles on it and I've only ever run Quiky-Jack's Secret Motor Oil and the engine has no wear. Therefore Quiky-Jack's is a superior oil."
Drifting
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,942
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From: Houston Tx
Zinc is another place where folks rant and rave, but there’s not much of substance for most people. True, zinc was the first, and many still consider it the best additive for resisting extreme pressure such as flat tappet lifters. But two things make that pretty much insignificant for most people. First, almost all engines now (including Vettes) use roller tappets, so don’t have extreme pressure points, and second, recent additive developments are comparable in effectiveness to zinc.
The reason zinc and other metallics are limited is that small amounts of oil get into the combustion chamber via PCV vapors and worn rings and valve seals, and the metals in any such oil end up on the catalytic converter catalyst, poisoning it. Some don’t like PCV for various reasons and disconnect it, but they are shooting themselves in the foot. While they don’t care about the fact that it makes a huge difference in engine emissions, what they don’t realize is that the steady flow of air through the crankcase that it provides, greatly reduces concentrations of acidity and corrosion in the crankcase. So an engine with PCV disabled will not only put out about 10 times more pollution, it will also corrode and break down much sooner.
Team Owner
Joined: Feb 2000
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From: Texas
CI 1-4-5-8-9-10 Vet
St. Jude Donor '03 thru '10, '17
As usual, with car waxes, computers, phones, foods, etc. etc. etc. -- including lubricants -- no manufacturer has any real game-changing secrets.
And as for testing anything, anecdotal examples are pretty worthless.
And of course the old scientific standard that correlation does not prove causation always holds true (like the elephant gun example someone posted above.)
"I have a 2005 Zephyr with 200,000 miles on it and I've only ever run Quiky-Jack's Secret Motor Oil and the engine has no wear. Therefore Quiky-Jack's is a superior oil."
And as for testing anything, anecdotal examples are pretty worthless.
And of course the old scientific standard that correlation does not prove causation always holds true (like the elephant gun example someone posted above.)
"I have a 2005 Zephyr with 200,000 miles on it and I've only ever run Quiky-Jack's Secret Motor Oil and the engine has no wear. Therefore Quiky-Jack's is a superior oil."
It was the Slick 50 that made it go 200K
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 21,631
Likes: 1,144
From: Below the bottom of Berby Hollow, NYS
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Team Owner
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From: Below the bottom of Berby Hollow, NYS
Team Owner
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From: Texas
CI 1-4-5-8-9-10 Vet
St. Jude Donor '03 thru '10, '17
Team Owner
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 45,380
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From: Texas
CI 1-4-5-8-9-10 Vet
St. Jude Donor '03 thru '10, '17
Race Director
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Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2014
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From: Below the bottom of Berby Hollow, NYS
Yup, a classic scene. I looked for a short Youtube of that but there isn't any, so I posted the still. 
Natural vs. synthetic lube . . . hmm 
Adrienne was sure hot in her day.
Adrienne was sure hot in her day.
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And good luck with your elephants too
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From: Missouri City, TX
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From: SC
PAOs are derived from a chemical process that combines small molecules to make larger complex molecules of a desired type.
http://www.lubrication-filtration.co...-synthetic.asp
http://www.lubrication-filtration.co...-synthetic.asp
Drifting
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,942
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From: Houston Tx
PAOs are derived from a chemical process that combines small molecules to make larger complex molecules of a desired type.
http://www.lubrication-filtration.co...-synthetic.asp
http://www.lubrication-filtration.co...-synthetic.asp
Bottom line is that you’re living in the world of 20 or 30 years ago. At that time, there were two choices, dino and poly alpha olefin, and the latter was the clear winner. What so many keep badmouthing as today’s fake synthetics are essentially as good for around half the cost. Just remember in all this jargon that the buzzwords that do matter are full synthetic versus synthetic blend. While full synthetics are blends of poly alpha olefins and the “fake” synthetics, they do not contain conventional dino oil. Synthetic blends do have about 50% conventional dino oil.
Race Director
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From: Missouri City, TX
Yes, but I think their point is that the small molecules (ie, ethylene) come from dino oil, they don’t grow on trees or come from cornfields. I agree that by the time the molecules go from dino oil, cracked down to ethylene, and built back up to poly alpha olefins, they don’t very closely resemble dino........................
What some are missing is that ethylene is produced in huge world scale petrochemical plants by steam cracking ethane which is a fractional component of crude oil. So disavowing any connection whatsoever between petroleum crude oil and PAO is incorrect.