[Z06] Procharger C6 ZO6 test car grenades engine on 6psi !!! (1st ride home after dyno)
02-23-2006, 10:37 PM
#41
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I moonlight with NHRA teams when they stop by Pomona. I have seen plenty of engines disintegrate under boost and the only thing that is certain is that the internals give up and separate in all kinds of wierd ways that seem to defy the laws of physics. Piston parts coming thru the side of the block was commonplace, and these are iron race blocks.
Even saw a 4-71 blower barf up piston parts once. Go figure.
This blown LS7 sounds like a messed-up tune to me, but I have to agree with those concerned about pushing boost thru a 11-1 CR LS7 with the stock internals. You know what they say - pay now or pay later.
We def. need more info. Shouldn't have happened that fast at 6psig
Even saw a 4-71 blower barf up piston parts once. Go figure.
This blown LS7 sounds like a messed-up tune to me, but I have to agree with those concerned about pushing boost thru a 11-1 CR LS7 with the stock internals. You know what they say - pay now or pay later.
We def. need more info. Shouldn't have happened that fast at 6psig
Last edited by GM Wrench; 02-23-2006 at 10:41 PM.
02-23-2006, 10:49 PM
#42
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I'm amazed at the lack of knowledge in some of these replies, regarding boost, pistons, etc...
"only 6 psi" is quite a bit considering the compression ratio is a full point higher than an LS1, on an engine that is already making 505 hp from the factory. The base kits for LS1s are set at 6 psi, with 10.1 CR, and target 450 HP. All safe limits on the hypereutectic pistons. So "only 6 psi" is plenty to destroy an engine that isn't designed for it.
"only 6 psi" is quite a bit considering the compression ratio is a full point higher than an LS1, on an engine that is already making 505 hp from the factory. The base kits for LS1s are set at 6 psi, with 10.1 CR, and target 450 HP. All safe limits on the hypereutectic pistons. So "only 6 psi" is plenty to destroy an engine that isn't designed for it.
02-23-2006, 11:33 PM
#43
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Everyone needs to calm down about the 6psi and 11.1 CR. It can certainly be done with the proper tuning. ATI is one of the only companies I know of stupid enough to attempt to do this without the proper tuning, thats why I am almost certain that was the problem.
BTW, the titanium rods are not a weak point. In fact they are quite a bit stronger than they need to be. Do you think GM would risk running these fancy new parts if they were barely strong enough? Especially one that has gotten so much press? OF COURSE NOT! They made them plenty strong so that there would not be any problems with the new technology they are implementing.
The lack of tuning in general has lead to two known engine failures in power adder C6Zs (assuming this ATI incident did in fact happen). You people should know better than anyone that these high compression, hypereutectic piston LSX motors can take more abuse on the stock bottom end than seems logical. Quit crying wolf already.
RANT OFF
BTW, the titanium rods are not a weak point. In fact they are quite a bit stronger than they need to be. Do you think GM would risk running these fancy new parts if they were barely strong enough? Especially one that has gotten so much press? OF COURSE NOT! They made them plenty strong so that there would not be any problems with the new technology they are implementing.
The lack of tuning in general has lead to two known engine failures in power adder C6Zs (assuming this ATI incident did in fact happen). You people should know better than anyone that these high compression, hypereutectic piston LSX motors can take more abuse on the stock bottom end than seems logical. Quit crying wolf already.
RANT OFF
02-23-2006, 11:47 PM
#44
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My C6 is stock compression and stock bottom end, with 5.5psi = 620rwhp and 518rwtq... It is tuned VERY conservative... I drive it @ 200 miles a week... ZERO problems here... just FYI
Jeremy
Jeremy
02-23-2006, 11:48 PM
#45
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Originally Posted by korvetkeith
Everyone needs to calm down about the 6psi and 11.1 CR. It can certainly be done with the proper tuning. ATI is one of the only companies I know of stupid enough to attempt to do this without the proper tuning, thats why I am almost certain that was the problem.
BTW, the titanium rods are not a weak point. In fact they are quite a bit stronger than they need to be. Do you think GM would risk running these fancy new parts if they were barely strong enough? Especially one that has gotten so much press? OF COURSE NOT! They made them plenty strong so that there would not be any problems with the new technology they are implementing.
The lack of tuning in general has lead to two known engine failures in power adder C6Zs (assuming this ATI incident did in fact happen). You people should know better than anyone that these high compression, hypereutectic piston LSX motors can take more abuse on the stock bottom end than seems logical. Quit crying wolf already.
RANT OFF
BTW, the titanium rods are not a weak point. In fact they are quite a bit stronger than they need to be. Do you think GM would risk running these fancy new parts if they were barely strong enough? Especially one that has gotten so much press? OF COURSE NOT! They made them plenty strong so that there would not be any problems with the new technology they are implementing.
The lack of tuning in general has lead to two known engine failures in power adder C6Zs (assuming this ATI incident did in fact happen). You people should know better than anyone that these high compression, hypereutectic piston LSX motors can take more abuse on the stock bottom end than seems logical. Quit crying wolf already.
RANT OFF
Jeremy
02-24-2006, 02:03 AM
#46
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Originally Posted by TT C6
Ya heard it here 1st.
Source does not want to be identified.
The 06 ZO6 was the Procharger "test" car that was on loan to Procharger from the cusomer since 1st delivered. (6 months?)
The ZO6's owner says 6psi totally grenaded the piston (#7?) while the customer was driving it home from the dyno session.
PISTON SHOT THROUGH THE SIDE OF THE BLOCK !!!!!!!!
He claims the titanium rods were undamaged.
Dyno recorded 620 rwhp before the car left with the customer. (D1?)
I don't know folks.
It seems like maybe it would be wise to stop modding the 06 ZO6 with a cam and headers.
I had planned cam, headers, and a 100 shot on a 06 Z for the weekends.
But after what I have been hearing lately,
I believe the LS7 should be left to natural aspiration.
But,
what the hell do I know?
Source does not want to be identified.
The 06 ZO6 was the Procharger "test" car that was on loan to Procharger from the cusomer since 1st delivered. (6 months?)
The ZO6's owner says 6psi totally grenaded the piston (#7?) while the customer was driving it home from the dyno session.
PISTON SHOT THROUGH THE SIDE OF THE BLOCK !!!!!!!!
He claims the titanium rods were undamaged.
Dyno recorded 620 rwhp before the car left with the customer. (D1?)
I don't know folks.
It seems like maybe it would be wise to stop modding the 06 ZO6 with a cam and headers.
I had planned cam, headers, and a 100 shot on a 06 Z for the weekends.
But after what I have been hearing lately,
I believe the LS7 should be left to natural aspiration.
But,
what the hell do I know?
LOL 11-1 Compression what the hell did they ****tard think was going to happen ?
this is not a engine to be adding super chargers to. that is sooo funny. at least tear the engine apart and do it right, back the timing out or whatever you have to lower the compression
02-24-2006, 08:25 AM
#48
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Originally Posted by Mr.Big
My C6 is stock compression and stock bottom end, with 5.5psi = 620rwhp and 518rwtq... It is tuned VERY conservative... I drive it @ 200 miles a week... ZERO problems here... just FYI
Jeremy
Jeremy
02-24-2006, 08:40 AM
#49
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Originally Posted by korvetkeith
They made them plenty strong so that there would not be any problems with the new technology they are implementing.
RANT OFF
RANT OFF
GM's durability standard test consists of nearly 300 hours of operation at WOT with the engine cycling back and forth between peak horsepower and torque under maximum load on this motor. It also goes through thermal shock testing between 250 degrees F and -40 degrees F while the engine is running. The stock bottom end is far better than the Gen III's for sure, and I can't count how many Gen III's are running 6psi. on the stock bottom end successfully.
02-24-2006, 09:08 AM
#50
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Originally Posted by EuG
Sorry for the owner, but what the hell did you expect.
11:1 CR FFS!
I always said this would happen.
If you wanna boost you gotta drop CR to at least ~9:1
11:1 CR FFS!
I always said this would happen.
If you wanna boost you gotta drop CR to at least ~9:1
02-24-2006, 09:15 AM
#51
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Originally Posted by TT C6
Ya heard it here 1st.
The ZO6's owner says 6psi totally grenaded the piston (#7?) while the customer was driving it home from the dyno session.
PISTON SHOT THROUGH THE SIDE OF THE BLOCK !!!!!!!!
The ZO6's owner says 6psi totally grenaded the piston (#7?) while the customer was driving it home from the dyno session.
PISTON SHOT THROUGH THE SIDE OF THE BLOCK !!!!!!!!
from me until the OWNER-CUSTOMER post some photos and more detail.
02-24-2006, 10:09 AM
#52
Team Owner
Originally Posted by zo6vetteman2003
GM's durability standard test consists of nearly 300 hours of operation at WOT with the engine cycling back and forth between peak horsepower and torque under maximum load on this motor. It also goes through thermal shock testing between 250 degrees F and -40 degrees F while the engine is running. The stock bottom end is far better than the Gen III's for sure, and I can't count how many Gen III's are running 6psi. on the stock bottom end successfully.
02-24-2006, 10:30 AM
#54
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I believed that the LS7 could have handled 6psi with proper tuning and fuel.
I hope that some of you are right and it was just lack of tuning that genaded this motor.
I say this because I believe that an new ZO6 with 6psi or a base C6 with 6+psi would be the ultimate daily driver.
In addition,
there was talk that the liners themselves, followed by the block, might be the weak link in the LS7.
The questions about the LS7 block and liners under forced induction is what REALLY concerns me.
Anyone who doesn't know what they are doing can easily grenade ANY motor with forced induction, so the failure itself isn't that big of a deal.
The LS7's ability to withstand boost when PROPERLY TUNED is.
I guess time will tell whether it was a poor tune or not that killed this motor.
I HOPE that is was a bad tune and not the inability of the LS7 to run boost.
Either way, I believe the C6 coupe is the way to go for forced induction and the ZO6 is better if you are going to remain stock.
You conspiracy theory guys crack me up.
I have to admit, that I don't believe anything I read at first as well.
I first got the info from an employee who told me I didn't hear it from him.
Then I got the same info from another source with additional details.
I'm not saying this info is FACT.
I'm sharing the info because I feel it's credible and I would want all of you to share info like this with the rest of us if you get it in the future.
Take it or leave it.
I hope that some of you are right and it was just lack of tuning that genaded this motor.
I say this because I believe that an new ZO6 with 6psi or a base C6 with 6+psi would be the ultimate daily driver.
In addition,
there was talk that the liners themselves, followed by the block, might be the weak link in the LS7.
The questions about the LS7 block and liners under forced induction is what REALLY concerns me.
Anyone who doesn't know what they are doing can easily grenade ANY motor with forced induction, so the failure itself isn't that big of a deal.
The LS7's ability to withstand boost when PROPERLY TUNED is.
I guess time will tell whether it was a poor tune or not that killed this motor.
I HOPE that is was a bad tune and not the inability of the LS7 to run boost.
Either way, I believe the C6 coupe is the way to go for forced induction and the ZO6 is better if you are going to remain stock.
You conspiracy theory guys crack me up.
I have to admit, that I don't believe anything I read at first as well.
I first got the info from an employee who told me I didn't hear it from him.
Then I got the same info from another source with additional details.
I'm not saying this info is FACT.
I'm sharing the info because I feel it's credible and I would want all of you to share info like this with the rest of us if you get it in the future.
Take it or leave it.
02-24-2006, 11:03 AM
#55
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Originally Posted by zo6vetteman2003
GM's durability standard test consists of nearly 300 hours of operation at WOT with the engine cycling back and forth between peak horsepower and torque under maximum load on this motor. It also goes through thermal shock testing between 250 degrees F and -40 degrees F while the engine is running. The stock bottom end is far better than the Gen III's for sure, and I can't count how many Gen III's are running 6psi. on the stock bottom end successfully.
02-24-2006, 11:37 AM
#56
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Originally Posted by DDSLT5
Dude - the piston isn't part of the bottom end.
When you purchase a forged bottom end, doesn't include the pistons
02-24-2006, 11:46 AM
#57
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Originally Posted by JasonR1974
Then where do you think its part of, the transmission
When you purchase a forged bottom end, doesn't include the pistons
When you purchase a forged bottom end, doesn't include the pistons
02-24-2006, 11:56 AM
#58
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Originally Posted by JasonR1974
Then where do you think its part of, the transmission
When you purchase a forged bottom end, doesn't include the pistons
When you purchase a forged bottom end, doesn't include the pistons
You're talking about the rotating assembly, or the short block. The bottom end consists of the crank, rods, and the physical assembly of the block (2 or 4 or 6 bolt, studding etc, etc) for the purposes of this conversation -i.e., the strong bottom end of an LS7 is the strong cross webbed block, 6 bolt main, forged crank, ti rods. The pistons is hypereutectic - which is fabulous for N/A, and quiet operation - but not so great for F/I.
02-24-2006, 12:12 PM
#59
Drifting
Originally Posted by Garry Luterek
As an engine engineer I have seen pistons come through the side of blocks, so road rebel comments are not correct. The fact is we do not have enough info from what little was said to really tell what happened. Lets wait till we get more details before we draw any solid conclusions to make serious decisions on.
While the piston is the most likely primary failure candidate in most cases there is the possiblity of another component failure as well. Liner, rings, etc. working in conjunction to untimately cause the final effect as described.
We need pictures of the failed parts and more detailed information.
But, I have to agree we should be cautious in the mods for now & the cam and header route seems most logical and best bang for the buck at this point.
While the piston is the most likely primary failure candidate in most cases there is the possiblity of another component failure as well. Liner, rings, etc. working in conjunction to untimately cause the final effect as described.
We need pictures of the failed parts and more detailed information.
But, I have to agree we should be cautious in the mods for now & the cam and header route seems most logical and best bang for the buck at this point.
The LS7 is WHORRIBLE platform for FI...Siamese cylinder walls, 11.0:1 cr, hypereutectic pistons.... There is a reson that the rumored blue devil is rumored to have less than 7.0L of displacement & have a price tag of 100K... To go FI the entire platform will change.
02-24-2006, 12:51 PM
#60
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Originally Posted by fgordon
Are the OWNER and CUSTOMER different people? This post will get a big from me until the OWNER-CUSTOMER post some photos and more detail.
from me until the OWNER-CUSTOMER post some photos and more detail.I just got a response back over at the Z06Vette.com site from someone "in the know" at ATI and he confirmed that there was a C6-Z with a Procharger on it that "grenaded" a piston. Of course, he indicated that there was a whole lot more to the story than what has been posted so far here.
