[Z06] Please tell me the benefit of 4.10 gears
11-30-2010, 12:22 PM
#21
Tech Contributor
Some good gear discussion going on over in this thread, particularly when Spinmonster and Glass Slipper chime in.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-t...85-next-2.html
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-t...85-next-2.html
11-30-2010, 01:49 PM
#22
Burning Brakes
11-30-2010, 02:24 PM
#23
Instructor
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Your profile doesn't show what year Z you have. The 2008 and newer zo6 has a 30 spline tranny output shaft and there are no ring and pinion options. Only place I now about is RPM for the whole unit. So therefore if you have a 06-07 you can look to a speed shop to order and set up c6 4.10 gears..
11-30-2010, 03:24 PM
#24
Team Owner
I added gears (390's) to my C-6. I now have a Z-06. With the larger
427 with added A&A kit. I prefer the 3.42's. I would not switch my Z06
to lower gears. It doesn't need them. At my power level. I'd say think ahead if your going to up the horsepower. Try the gearing you have first. I enjoy the crosscountry better with the 3.42's.
427 with added A&A kit. I prefer the 3.42's. I would not switch my Z06
to lower gears. It doesn't need them. At my power level. I'd say think ahead if your going to up the horsepower. Try the gearing you have first. I enjoy the crosscountry better with the 3.42's.
11-30-2010, 03:35 PM
#25
Le Mans Master
I have the same tranny gears as a Z pretty much. MN6. and I wouldnt ditch my 4.10s for anything. gas milage does not change unless you are going a constant 90 mph on the highway..and really? who cares. If gas was your top priority, get a prius.
the car takes off more smooth, winds up faster, and has alot more acceleration. In 5th gear i can still go 180+....so plenty for any fun you want. If I had FI, like a turbo or blower, Id keep the stock 3.42 gear.
i had RPM build me a stage 3 with a ZR1 shaft, C6Z clutch packs, and a shot peened 4.10 gear with other goodies. RPM can do whatever you want. I think its the best mod a NA car can get
the car takes off more smooth, winds up faster, and has alot more acceleration. In 5th gear i can still go 180+....so plenty for any fun you want. If I had FI, like a turbo or blower, Id keep the stock 3.42 gear.
i had RPM build me a stage 3 with a ZR1 shaft, C6Z clutch packs, and a shot peened 4.10 gear with other goodies. RPM can do whatever you want. I think its the best mod a NA car can get
11-30-2010, 03:44 PM
#26
Burning Brakes
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to the OP. 3.91's would be nice. let me know where you find them.
11-30-2010, 04:44 PM
#27
Burning Brakes
Your profile doesn't show what year Z you have. The 2008 and newer zo6 has a 30 spline tranny output shaft and there are no ring and pinion options. Only place I now about is RPM for the whole unit. So therefore if you have a 06-07 you can look to a speed shop to order and set up c6 4.10 gears..
11-30-2010, 07:22 PM
#28
Burning Brakes
[QUOTE=BubbaDuss;1576077345]It makes the same power regardless of gears. the only thing that changes is the multiplier of force.[QUOTE]
I was talking getting into 4th for 1/4 mile performance .
I was talking getting into 4th for 1/4 mile performance .
11-30-2010, 11:36 PM
#29
Le Mans Master
Has anyone installed 4.10 gears?Ihear they do wonders for acceleration.I dont want to modify my car just a tune,intake and thinking of gears for the spring,right now its all stock and i love it and i know that headers and catback are a waste of money unless you cam it.Just trying to be alittle quicker than the next guy while keeping drivability and getting best bang for the buck results.I will however run it all stock on stock tires just to see how low an e.t i can get .Its cold out here so may is the earliest ill get to try it.
4.10 gears will make the effective torque you lay down higher, think of them as using a longer pry-bar to get your tires rolling rather than a short pry-bar.
4.10 gears may or may not whine annoyingly, like any aftermarket gear-install.
4.10 gears will make 6th gear more useful.
4.10 gears will prevent you from hitting 60mph in first.
4.10 gears will cause your in-town mileage to stay the same/go up and your highway mileage to drop.
4.10 gears just aren't something a 427ci car needs, in my opinion, unless it is an all-out drag car.
12-01-2010, 12:21 AM
#30
Burning Brakes
Joe_G -
How much RPM do you really gain from the 3.90's? And how many mph do you lose in a given gear?
I'm thinking of doing 3.90's but I want the hard data on how much my cruising rpms will rise, and what some examples of speeds-in-gear are.
- Tim
How much RPM do you really gain from the 3.90's? And how many mph do you lose in a given gear?
I'm thinking of doing 3.90's but I want the hard data on how much my cruising rpms will rise, and what some examples of speeds-in-gear are.
- Tim
12-01-2010, 06:11 AM
#31
Tech Contributor
This website will allow you to select your trans type, then change gear ratio and it will calculate exactly what you are after for you.
http://www.xse.com/leres/ss/calculator.html
12-01-2010, 11:03 AM
#32
Instructor
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No you werent... but thats ok. For what its worth the gear you dyno your car in and grabbing 4th in the 1/4 have absolutely no corrolation.
You know not what you speak. Posting info on things you clearly have no understanding of helps noone.
Maybe you should ask your tuner why he dyno's YOUR car in 4th rather than guessing.
You know not what you speak. Posting info on things you clearly have no understanding of helps noone.
Maybe you should ask your tuner why he dyno's YOUR car in 4th rather than guessing.
12-01-2010, 11:12 AM
#33
What BSSN said, although I haven't seen that big of losses on the dyno. closer to 0-5rwhp, but YMMV.
Would never recommend anything steeper than stock gears to a customer for a z06, unless they are running on sticky tires at the track.
Would never recommend anything steeper than stock gears to a customer for a z06, unless they are running on sticky tires at the track.
12-01-2010, 11:51 AM
#34
Useless unless you drag race with full slicks. My car can easily overpower the drag radials on a prepped track and the street is a joke for first gear. Why anyone would want shorter gears on a car that can already spin the tires to 75 is beyond me.
12-01-2010, 01:26 PM
#35
Le Mans Master
Q:
Why does the dyno show a power loss after a differential gear change (say a 3.42 to 4.10 gear)?
A:
The Chassis Dynamometer measures power that reaches the tires, not Engine Power. Therefore, any changes you make to your drivetrain may result in a change in your chassis Dynamometer results. A steeper gear ratio will provide the following,
1. Higher peak force to the ground
2. Higher average force to the ground
3. Lower top speed (MPH)
4. Higher peak acceleration rate in all gears
5. Lower peak horsepower
The reason you lose your peak hp is based on higher acceleration rates, increased gear mesh/losses, higher tire losses. These will affect your peak horsepower number in a negative fashion. Losing approx. 5% is expected when changing to a significantly steeper rear gear. Engine power was not reduced, power to the ground was. In exchange, you have more force available which is what allows you to accelerate faster off the line. If you enjoy the feeling of Gs forces as you accelerate, you made a wise choice. Do not be discouraged by the peak power numbers�they are just a reference.
Why does the dyno show a power loss after a differential gear change (say a 3.42 to 4.10 gear)?
A:
The Chassis Dynamometer measures power that reaches the tires, not Engine Power. Therefore, any changes you make to your drivetrain may result in a change in your chassis Dynamometer results. A steeper gear ratio will provide the following,
1. Higher peak force to the ground
2. Higher average force to the ground
3. Lower top speed (MPH)
4. Higher peak acceleration rate in all gears
5. Lower peak horsepower
The reason you lose your peak hp is based on higher acceleration rates, increased gear mesh/losses, higher tire losses. These will affect your peak horsepower number in a negative fashion. Losing approx. 5% is expected when changing to a significantly steeper rear gear. Engine power was not reduced, power to the ground was. In exchange, you have more force available which is what allows you to accelerate faster off the line. If you enjoy the feeling of Gs forces as you accelerate, you made a wise choice. Do not be discouraged by the peak power numbers�they are just a reference.
Last edited by BSSN; 12-01-2010 at 01:32 PM.
12-01-2010, 01:40 PM
#36
Tech Contributor
Here is some more good info from SpinMonster
For those interested, this is from this thread where there is more good info from Glass Slipper.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-t...-e85-next.html
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-t...-e85-next.html
The key word is street tires. The gearing isnt what is causing the lack of traction. Increasing power breaks tires loose and handicapping gearing is about as smart as starting in third gear because you cant break it loose. 4.10's or 3.90's is effectively creating a gear ratio that is under first gear. If you did do a launch in 2nd gear and it broke loose, you cant rehook.....ever....until you come off the gas pedal. Same principal applies to 3.90's or 4.10's. keeping gears stock is the same as 4.10's and starting in 2nd gear.
If you calculate the final gear ratio, you will be amazed at just how close 4.10's in secod gear is to 3.42's in first. You arent faster because it doesnt break loose, you killed your 60'.
Its been my first hand experience that a geared car with less power will destroy an overpowered car with stock gears 0-60 or 0-100. i have found now at 800+rwhp that my car (a Z51 with 4.10's) hooks awesome in 1st gear and if it does break loose, it rehooks almost instantly. If my car with 700rwtq doesnt have a useless first gear then the gears arent the issue, the tire is when you match it with the wrong power level. Gears aid traction by rehooking way faster if you do break loose.
My age old statement: get gears and stop adding power when your tire choice doesnt let you get it to the ground.
If you keep stock gears with 50 more HP, the car will be slower.
Guys claiming useless 1st and 2nd gears are overpowered for the tire they use. They do not have too much gear. In fact getting 4.10's for such a car will show that it rehooks almost instantly. As a 471rwhp H/C car I was able to drop the clutch in 1st at 3500rpms and it would spin 1.5 rotations and hook with nitto 555r2s.
For those who didnt read it 100 times before. At 700rwhp my dart was running 11.2's at 138 with 4.30's spinning out of the line in 2 gears. With no changes, the car ran 10.9 with 4.88's and then 10.6 with 5.30's still spinning off the line. Thinking the same as forum members here refuse to change, I resisted but then went with a max of 6.13's and the car pulled a wheelie out of the hole cutting a 1.29 60' with a 9.97 at 138.
Gears where the only change and the common myth was of course since it was spinning with the 4.88's that it was overgeared. Believe what you want with power vs gears. My cars hook becuase I match the tire to the set up and cars get built from the back to the front. You gear for your trap speed and power has nothing to do with it.
Move the battery to the trunk, use a thinner front sway from the base car and use cheap 90/10 shocks and the only thing that will limit your launch is the 1/2 shafts and I have a collection of them broken. If you insist on street tires, that and only that is your limiting factor.
If you calculate the final gear ratio, you will be amazed at just how close 4.10's in secod gear is to 3.42's in first. You arent faster because it doesnt break loose, you killed your 60'.
Its been my first hand experience that a geared car with less power will destroy an overpowered car with stock gears 0-60 or 0-100. i have found now at 800+rwhp that my car (a Z51 with 4.10's) hooks awesome in 1st gear and if it does break loose, it rehooks almost instantly. If my car with 700rwtq doesnt have a useless first gear then the gears arent the issue, the tire is when you match it with the wrong power level. Gears aid traction by rehooking way faster if you do break loose.
My age old statement: get gears and stop adding power when your tire choice doesnt let you get it to the ground.
If you keep stock gears with 50 more HP, the car will be slower.
Guys claiming useless 1st and 2nd gears are overpowered for the tire they use. They do not have too much gear. In fact getting 4.10's for such a car will show that it rehooks almost instantly. As a 471rwhp H/C car I was able to drop the clutch in 1st at 3500rpms and it would spin 1.5 rotations and hook with nitto 555r2s.
For those who didnt read it 100 times before. At 700rwhp my dart was running 11.2's at 138 with 4.30's spinning out of the line in 2 gears. With no changes, the car ran 10.9 with 4.88's and then 10.6 with 5.30's still spinning off the line. Thinking the same as forum members here refuse to change, I resisted but then went with a max of 6.13's and the car pulled a wheelie out of the hole cutting a 1.29 60' with a 9.97 at 138.
Gears where the only change and the common myth was of course since it was spinning with the 4.88's that it was overgeared. Believe what you want with power vs gears. My cars hook becuase I match the tire to the set up and cars get built from the back to the front. You gear for your trap speed and power has nothing to do with it.
Move the battery to the trunk, use a thinner front sway from the base car and use cheap 90/10 shocks and the only thing that will limit your launch is the 1/2 shafts and I have a collection of them broken. If you insist on street tires, that and only that is your limiting factor.
12-01-2010, 08:25 PM
#37
Melting Slicks
12-01-2010, 09:28 PM
#38
Pro
12-01-2010, 09:46 PM
#39
Tech Contributor
12-01-2010, 10:02 PM
#40
Tech Contributor
Here's the answer courtesy of Glass Slipper.
From the other thread for those not following. A little math to make some sense of why gears are great for us drag racers but not as important for roll racers or road course guys.
Yes, I intentionally mixed them to show the difference the transmission makes too but I was very up front about it. The MZ6 2.97 1st gear is better for drag racing than the 2.66 1st gear of the MN6 but the wide ratio spread hurts in a roll race. I also said I picked the race so he was at the bottom of a gear which is relevant to the roll race as you'll see below. Let's go ahead and compare MZ6/4.10 to MN6/3.42. The overall gear ratio with the MZ6/4.10 1st-5th is 12.18, 8.49, 5.86, 4.10, and 2.91 while the MN6/3.42 1st-5th is 10.16, 7.08, 4.89, 3.42, 2.43. If we have a race where the 4.10 car uses 3rd-5th (5.86, 4.10, 2.91) and the 3.42 car uses 2nd-4th (7.08, 4.89, 3.42) and the 3.42 car catches the 4.10 car right after it shifts to 3rd (~65 MPH), the 3.42 car now has the advantage of "gears". The rear gear ratio is meaningless in a roll race without combining the transmission ratios to see who's going to have the advantage at any particular speed. You can pick speeds where the 4.10 car will have the advantage just as easily...my intent was to show the rear gear ratio is not an absolute advantage/disadvantage in a roll race. Hopefully this has made it clearer.
Gears give you the opportunity to run through peak power more often than a non-geared car only from a standing start up to ~130 MPH...you might be surprised what a run from 0-158 MPH would look like.
I roll raced when I was young and dumb and while I didn't have a sign for any specific speed range, I knew how to play the game. I always gave the other guy the "break of the wheels" but only after he got the "nod" from me and they were only too eager to receive my "gift" of letting them go first. I also told them the race was over when they saw me hit my brakes and to watch for my front end to dip...gave them the impression they were going to beat me and got their mind off the actual race. What they didn't realize was I was listening to their engine as we slowly accelerated up to the "start" of the race...as soon as I heard them shift to the next gear, I nodded my head and even let them pull me a few feet before I nailed it. I had just put them at the very bottom of their HP curve where they were lucky to be making 200 HP while I was coming up on top of mine making 300+ HP. What do you think happened??? I blew past them like they were sitting still and always hit my brakes before they could catch me...I determined the start and the end of the race making the other guy run "my race". I could beat cars with 100 HP more than me using this simple technique leading many to believe I had 200 HP more than what I actually had. Guys would crawl all over my car looking for secret HP adders but all I had was the stock cam I had custom ground to add lift/duration (but sound stock) and lots of time tuning the carb/ignition. It looked and sounded stock and I would tell them it was all stock.
The funniest part was I had single exhaust with a very quiet muffler...just added to the effect.
Nobody ever figured it out and I won many races just because I was smarter than the other guy.
Most people understand the concept of torque, very few people understand the concept of HP. Most people think in terms of torque accelerating the car. Gears multiply torque giving a linear equation that results in a straight line and then there's the simple linear equation of F=mA or A=F/m which results in another straight line. For as simple as straight lines are, it gets real messy trying to find/combine all the terms and make any sense out of any of it. I think in terms of HP accelerating the car by increasing its kinetic energy. The faster we increase the KE of the car, the quicker it accelerates...the more HP we have, the faster we can increase KE. So if the car sees peak HP in each gear, why doesn't it accelerate the same in each gear??? KE=½mV² which is an exponential equation resulting in a curve. If we look at a 3000 lb car accelerating from 0-10 MPH, we have KE=½*3000*(10)²=150,000 units. (You can convert lbs-mile²/hour² to your favorite units of energy whether it's joules, HP-hour, BTU, ergs, calorie, or even ft-lb if you want, the relative number is the important thing.) If we look at the same car accelerating from 50-60 MPH, we have KE=½*3000*(60²-50²)=1,650,000 units. So it takes 11 times more energy to accelerate from 50-60 MPH than 0-10 MPH even though the increase in speed is the same 10 MPH. You can see one of the units of energy I listed is HP-hour which makes the HP/KE concept very easy to understand. Whoever adds HP to their car the quickest, wins! That's why gears are great for drag racing because they get you up on top of the HP curve quicker where you can increase KE quicker at a point in the run where it has much bigger impact...at the lower speeds. It'll cut your ET significantly but won't have much impact on your MPH because it's such a small part of the overall run where MPH is concerned. Once you're past 1st gear, your rear gear ratio really has no impact.
PS There may be some who notice my list of units of energy above includes "ft-lb". The term ft-lb is in fact a unit of energy not to be confused with the term lb-ft...a unit of torque which is a force. Put simply, torque is a cross product of two vectors resulting in a vector with magnitude and direction while energy is a dot product of two vectors resulting in a scalar that has magnitude but no direction.
Gears give you the opportunity to run through peak power more often than a non-geared car only from a standing start up to ~130 MPH...you might be surprised what a run from 0-158 MPH would look like.
I roll raced when I was young and dumb and while I didn't have a sign for any specific speed range, I knew how to play the game. I always gave the other guy the "break of the wheels" but only after he got the "nod" from me and they were only too eager to receive my "gift" of letting them go first. I also told them the race was over when they saw me hit my brakes and to watch for my front end to dip...gave them the impression they were going to beat me and got their mind off the actual race. What they didn't realize was I was listening to their engine as we slowly accelerated up to the "start" of the race...as soon as I heard them shift to the next gear, I nodded my head and even let them pull me a few feet before I nailed it. I had just put them at the very bottom of their HP curve where they were lucky to be making 200 HP while I was coming up on top of mine making 300+ HP. What do you think happened??? I blew past them like they were sitting still and always hit my brakes before they could catch me...I determined the start and the end of the race making the other guy run "my race". I could beat cars with 100 HP more than me using this simple technique leading many to believe I had 200 HP more than what I actually had. Guys would crawl all over my car looking for secret HP adders but all I had was the stock cam I had custom ground to add lift/duration (but sound stock) and lots of time tuning the carb/ignition. It looked and sounded stock and I would tell them it was all stock. The funniest part was I had single exhaust with a very quiet muffler...just added to the effect. Nobody ever figured it out and I won many races just because I was smarter than the other guy.Most people understand the concept of torque, very few people understand the concept of HP. Most people think in terms of torque accelerating the car. Gears multiply torque giving a linear equation that results in a straight line and then there's the simple linear equation of F=mA or A=F/m which results in another straight line. For as simple as straight lines are, it gets real messy trying to find/combine all the terms and make any sense out of any of it. I think in terms of HP accelerating the car by increasing its kinetic energy. The faster we increase the KE of the car, the quicker it accelerates...the more HP we have, the faster we can increase KE. So if the car sees peak HP in each gear, why doesn't it accelerate the same in each gear??? KE=½mV² which is an exponential equation resulting in a curve. If we look at a 3000 lb car accelerating from 0-10 MPH, we have KE=½*3000*(10)²=150,000 units. (You can convert lbs-mile²/hour² to your favorite units of energy whether it's joules, HP-hour, BTU, ergs, calorie, or even ft-lb if you want, the relative number is the important thing.) If we look at the same car accelerating from 50-60 MPH, we have KE=½*3000*(60²-50²)=1,650,000 units. So it takes 11 times more energy to accelerate from 50-60 MPH than 0-10 MPH even though the increase in speed is the same 10 MPH. You can see one of the units of energy I listed is HP-hour which makes the HP/KE concept very easy to understand. Whoever adds HP to their car the quickest, wins! That's why gears are great for drag racing because they get you up on top of the HP curve quicker where you can increase KE quicker at a point in the run where it has much bigger impact...at the lower speeds. It'll cut your ET significantly but won't have much impact on your MPH because it's such a small part of the overall run where MPH is concerned. Once you're past 1st gear, your rear gear ratio really has no impact.
PS There may be some who notice my list of units of energy above includes "ft-lb". The term ft-lb is in fact a unit of energy not to be confused with the term lb-ft...a unit of torque which is a force. Put simply, torque is a cross product of two vectors resulting in a vector with magnitude and direction while energy is a dot product of two vectors resulting in a scalar that has magnitude but no direction.