[Z06] Michelin Pilot Sports PS2 SCARY WHEN COLD
03-27-2011, 09:40 PM
#43
Melting Slicks
This is an exerp from an very good book on performance tire technology:
http://insideracingtechnology.com/tirebkexerpt3.htm
03-27-2011, 09:53 PM
#44
Drifting
Thread Starter
I've got a question for all of you folks that have gone through different manufacturers tires........Have you found any real difference any that really do seem to throw less stones and road cinders? Or are they all pretty much the same especially when warmed up. I've only experience with original GY's which seem to me at least to throw quite a few stones.
All the tires for the Z are challenged when they are cold. The bridgestones are livable the the early goodyears and the michelins I had on the car were IMHO unacceptable. Select the tire that fits your needs
it helps to know what others have found
03-28-2011, 01:02 PM
#45
Team Owner
I don't know how you folks are driving, but I have driven my 07 Z w/the OEM GY's in temps down to single digits w/o and fuss or drama.
I do know that I can over power the rear tires with the right pedal, but like in any driving situation you have know the enviroment and drive accordingly.
I've never had ANY issues makin a turn or stopping in single digit weather. So I just adjust my driving style, why whould I expect the car to romp and stop in that kind of weather - I don't. Hell I attended a HSDE at Road America last April where the air temp was 32 degrees when we hit the track at 9:30 in the morning, after one warm up lap we were up and running w/o issues.
It all about the driver.
Tom
I do know that I can over power the rear tires with the right pedal, but like in any driving situation you have know the enviroment and drive accordingly.
I've never had ANY issues makin a turn or stopping in single digit weather. So I just adjust my driving style, why whould I expect the car to romp and stop in that kind of weather - I don't. Hell I attended a HSDE at Road America last April where the air temp was 32 degrees when we hit the track at 9:30 in the morning, after one warm up lap we were up and running w/o issues.
It all about the driver.
Tom
03-28-2011, 01:46 PM
#46
Pro
Both Discount Tire and Tire Rack have a small tech article on Tire Heat Cycling, but it is more of an add to sell you their service.
This is an exerp from an very good book on performance tire technology:
http://insideracingtechnology.com/tirebkexerpt3.htm
This is an exerp from an very good book on performance tire technology:
http://insideracingtechnology.com/tirebkexerpt3.htm
How very interesting! I appreciate you posting this link for me. Thank you kind sir!
Harry
03-28-2011, 02:15 PM
#47
I'll go along with the "scary when cold" observations. I read here that in the cold, the tires were like using hockey pucks while driving on ice. That was my first hint I should be very careful.
I live near Albany NY and have the OEM Eagles. This winter it was very rare to have a clear sunny day above 32 degrees. I did manage to take the ZO6 on the road a couple of times just to keep things going.
In the first couple of miles I could tell if I did anything "stupid" the car would respond in kind. Took it very easy until the tires got warm. I drove on the Interstate for about 10 miles came home and buttoned it up until next time. Maybe its because of my age or the fact I've had the Z less than a year, but "mundane" driving in winter sounds like a great rule.
Glad to say, its getting warmer. It will hit 50 Wednesday. Thursday and Friday forecast: snow/rain showers.
I live near Albany NY and have the OEM Eagles. This winter it was very rare to have a clear sunny day above 32 degrees. I did manage to take the ZO6 on the road a couple of times just to keep things going.
In the first couple of miles I could tell if I did anything "stupid" the car would respond in kind. Took it very easy until the tires got warm. I drove on the Interstate for about 10 miles came home and buttoned it up until next time. Maybe its because of my age or the fact I've had the Z less than a year, but "mundane" driving in winter sounds like a great rule.
Glad to say, its getting warmer. It will hit 50 Wednesday. Thursday and Friday forecast: snow/rain showers.
03-28-2011, 02:26 PM
#48
Le Mans Master
I don't know how you folks are driving, but I have driven my 07 Z w/the OEM GY's in temps down to single digits w/o and fuss or drama.
I do know that I can over power the rear tires with the right pedal, but like in any driving situation you have know the enviroment and drive accordingly.
I've never had ANY issues makin a turn or stopping in single digit weather. So I just adjust my driving style, why whould I expect the car to romp and stop in that kind of weather - I don't. Hell I attended a HSDE at Road America last April where the air temp was 32 degrees when we hit the track at 9:30 in the morning, after one warm up lap we were up and running w/o issues.
It all about the driver.
Tom
I do know that I can over power the rear tires with the right pedal, but like in any driving situation you have know the enviroment and drive accordingly.
I've never had ANY issues makin a turn or stopping in single digit weather. So I just adjust my driving style, why whould I expect the car to romp and stop in that kind of weather - I don't. Hell I attended a HSDE at Road America last April where the air temp was 32 degrees when we hit the track at 9:30 in the morning, after one warm up lap we were up and running w/o issues.
It all about the driver.
Tom
03-28-2011, 02:29 PM
#49
Tech Contributor
Member Since: Mar 1999
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"Ask Tadge" Producer
You sound like you should track your car. You'll learn a bunch more about it than you ever thought possible in day-to-day driving, in any of the work you've done, etc. Really, there's no better better automotive education available than what's on the race track.
And you'll have so much fun there, you'll wonder how it could possibly be legal.
One of many lessons you'll learn on the track is that the pedal on the right side of your foot well can't be treated like an on and off switch. Based purely on what you've written in this post, you sound like you are making that mistake.
For what little it's worth, I've driven my ZR1 all winter long, as long as no precip was called for. That includes days where the morning temperatures were in the teens; in VA that's damn cold. I never once wiped out or became "scared" of my PS2s. And my car is producing far more low-end torque than yours is.
The difference is that I understand how and when to get on it, and when not to. A good portion of that know-how came from the race track, pure and simple. Yes, you can say, "But I have so-and-so many years of driving experience, and I know how to drive my Corvette!" If that's the case, then don't be "scared" of the PS2s. They're a far better tire overall than the Bridgestones or the Goodyears are. They work fine in the cold and wet. In the summer, they're superb. But this all assumes you can extract the right performance from them without risking you and/or your car.
jas
03-28-2011, 05:00 PM
#50
Le Mans Master
I'm going to be the ******* here and say:
You sound like you should track your car. You'll learn a bunch more about it than you ever thought possible in day-to-day driving, in any of the work you've done, etc. Really, there's no better better automotive education available than what's on the race track.
And you'll have so much fun there, you'll wonder how it could possibly be legal.
One of many lessons you'll learn on the track is that the pedal on the right side of your foot well can't be treated like an on and off switch. Based purely on what you've written in this post, you sound like you are making that mistake.
For what little it's worth, I've driven my ZR1 all winter long, as long as no precip was called for. That includes days where the morning temperatures were in the teens; in VA that's damn cold. I never once wiped out or became "scared" of my PS2s. And my car is producing far more low-end torque than yours is.
The difference is that I understand how and when to get on it, and when not to. A good portion of that know-how came from the race track, pure and simple. Yes, you can say, "But I have so-and-so many years of driving experience, and I know how to drive my Corvette!" If that's the case, then don't be "scared" of the PS2s. They're a far better tire overall than the Bridgestones or the Goodyears are. They work fine in the cold and wet. In the summer, they're superb. But this all assumes you can extract the right performance from them without risking you and/or your car.
jas
You sound like you should track your car. You'll learn a bunch more about it than you ever thought possible in day-to-day driving, in any of the work you've done, etc. Really, there's no better better automotive education available than what's on the race track.
And you'll have so much fun there, you'll wonder how it could possibly be legal.
One of many lessons you'll learn on the track is that the pedal on the right side of your foot well can't be treated like an on and off switch. Based purely on what you've written in this post, you sound like you are making that mistake.
For what little it's worth, I've driven my ZR1 all winter long, as long as no precip was called for. That includes days where the morning temperatures were in the teens; in VA that's damn cold. I never once wiped out or became "scared" of my PS2s. And my car is producing far more low-end torque than yours is.
The difference is that I understand how and when to get on it, and when not to. A good portion of that know-how came from the race track, pure and simple. Yes, you can say, "But I have so-and-so many years of driving experience, and I know how to drive my Corvette!" If that's the case, then don't be "scared" of the PS2s. They're a far better tire overall than the Bridgestones or the Goodyears are. They work fine in the cold and wet. In the summer, they're superb. But this all assumes you can extract the right performance from them without risking you and/or your car.
jas
The Bridgestone was actually developed for the Z06 (for whatever reason, GM decided to stick with GY).
The Bridgestone PP is an outstanding tire, and an equal to the PS2 in almost all conditions (and apparently better in very cold).
Another advantage, since it was designed for the Z06, the tire has the same big look in the rear, unlike the PS2 which looks a little wimpy.
I chose the Bridgestones and I'm happy I did. Besides, they're about $500 cheaper than the PS2 ZP.
03-28-2011, 05:16 PM
#51
Racer
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PS2's just installed with 550 rwhp in New York, I use my car on a daily basis whether snow on the ground, 25 degree weather to get to work in westchester.
The Goodyears were loud and awful tires, almost did a 180 on the hwy doing 70, very dangerous and it was time for the run craps to go!
The Ps2's are a lot quieter and ride better but not sure yet on the performance although i do notice 2nd gear can hook a lot better.
I'll have to wait until summer to put my .02 cents in
The Goodyears were loud and awful tires, almost did a 180 on the hwy doing 70, very dangerous and it was time for the run craps to go!
The Ps2's are a lot quieter and ride better but not sure yet on the performance although i do notice 2nd gear can hook a lot better.
I'll have to wait until summer to put my .02 cents in
Last edited by drewcorvette; 03-28-2011 at 05:18 PM.
03-29-2011, 12:22 PM
#52
Team Owner
I agree with much of what you say, except for the statement in bold.
The Bridgestone was actually developed for the Z06 (for whatever reason, GM decided to stick with GY).
The Bridgestone PP is an outstanding tire, and an equal to the PS2 in almost all conditions (and apparently better in very cold).
Another advantage, since it was designed for the Z06, the tire has the same big look in the rear, unlike the PS2 which looks a little wimpy.
I chose the Bridgestones and I'm happy I did. Besides, they're about $500 cheaper than the PS2 ZP.
The Bridgestone was actually developed for the Z06 (for whatever reason, GM decided to stick with GY).
The Bridgestone PP is an outstanding tire, and an equal to the PS2 in almost all conditions (and apparently better in very cold).
Another advantage, since it was designed for the Z06, the tire has the same big look in the rear, unlike the PS2 which looks a little wimpy.
I chose the Bridgestones and I'm happy I did. Besides, they're about $500 cheaper than the PS2 ZP.
03-29-2011, 01:44 PM
#53
Le Mans Master
You are correct. I paid $1600 otd.
03-29-2011, 03:30 PM
#54
Drifting
I don't know how you folks are driving, but I have driven my 07 Z w/the OEM GY's in temps down to single digits w/o and fuss or drama.
I do know that I can over power the rear tires with the right pedal, but like in any driving situation you have know the enviroment and drive accordingly.
I've never had ANY issues makin a turn or stopping in single digit weather. So I just adjust my driving style, why whould I expect the car to romp and stop in that kind of weather - I don't. Hell I attended a HSDE at Road America last April where the air temp was 32 degrees when we hit the track at 9:30 in the morning, after one warm up lap we were up and running w/o issues.
It all about the driver.
Tom
I do know that I can over power the rear tires with the right pedal, but like in any driving situation you have know the enviroment and drive accordingly.
I've never had ANY issues makin a turn or stopping in single digit weather. So I just adjust my driving style, why whould I expect the car to romp and stop in that kind of weather - I don't. Hell I attended a HSDE at Road America last April where the air temp was 32 degrees when we hit the track at 9:30 in the morning, after one warm up lap we were up and running w/o issues.
It all about the driver.
Tom
Gary
P.S. Sorry for running on but I have decided to add a couple of things. First of all, Bob Bondurant gave our racing organization a one day special deal of skid pad, accident avoidance, road course and autocross instruction and practice and it is the best thing I have ever done in support of my racing as well as my daily commuter driving. Thank you Bob, and I highly recommend any kind of professional training to anyone, regardless of their driving plans, racing or not. Also, the OP was on his third set of tires in 36,000 miles. Now, I use my Z as a daily driver mostly, race never and get "happy" with my car only on occaision. I put 11,000 miles on my original GoodYears and I never considered them quite as bad as most people claim. I took them off the car and they still had exactly half the tread left. I put 295 and 345 Michelin PS 2's on and even though I felt that they were a worth-while improvement, I didn't feel that the difference was "monumental". I now have 36,000 miles on them and they have about half the stock tread left. I am now replacing them with another identical set just because I would like to freshen up the tread compound and get back to the original level of grip. Is there a better tire out there? I don't claim to know. I am buying another set because, as far as I am concerned, they are perfect for what I need a tire to do for my car and my usage. Does that make me smarter than him? Absolutely not. Does that make me better at choosing a tire for my high-performance car? I think so.
Last edited by 40YRW8; 03-29-2011 at 03:59 PM.
03-30-2011, 05:52 AM
#55
Le Mans Master
[QUOTE=JoesC5;1577169455]
I hear you & agree that bad things can happen if one is too hard on the throttle at the wrong temp, but no matter the tire, you can't do anything about stupidity. When I drive my 10 GS with LPE 650 forged bottom end Maggie supercharger package( stock ZR1 power & then some) in cold or wet conditions with the OEM Goodyears, I use grandma throttle settings & just cruise( I'm having a set of Michelin PS2 RF's installed today).
Ii live in the Pacific Northwest and our temps this time of year have been in the 30's to low 40's and when I drive with the PS2's I just don't try anything crazy handling-wise while the tires and car are cold and I haven't observed any issues. Compared to the OEM GY GEN II runflats, they are smoother, quieter and although they pick up some road debri when driving it is 10 times less than the OEM runflats.
Each to their own, but I would personally still recommend the PS2's to anyone over the OEM runflats......GM puts PS2's on the Z07 & ZR1 and I don't recall hearing anyone wrecking their car or losing control of it with these tires on them based on poor cold weather handling performance![/QUOTE]
There is a guy in a little town about 50 miles from me that won a new ZR1 in a NCM raffle. Not long after he got it he left his house when the temp was in the low twenties. Lost it, went through a chain link fence and did ~$40,000 damage. Now you have heard of someone wrecking their car.
Each to their own, but I would personally still recommend the PS2's to anyone over the OEM runflats......GM puts PS2's on the Z07 & ZR1 and I don't recall hearing anyone wrecking their car or losing control of it with these tires on them based on poor cold weather handling performance![/QUOTE]
There is a guy in a little town about 50 miles from me that won a new ZR1 in a NCM raffle. Not long after he got it he left his house when the temp was in the low twenties. Lost it, went through a chain link fence and did ~$40,000 damage. Now you have heard of someone wrecking their car.
03-30-2011, 11:43 AM
#56
Instructor
Member Since: Aug 2010
Location: Waterford MI
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I agree with much of what you say, except for the statement in bold.
The Bridgestone was actually developed for the Z06 (for whatever reason, GM decided to stick with GY).
The Bridgestone PP is an outstanding tire, and an equal to the PS2 in almost all conditions (and apparently better in very cold).
Another advantage, since it was designed for the Z06, the tire has the same big look in the rear, unlike the PS2 which looks a little wimpy.
I chose the Bridgestones and I'm happy I did. Besides, they're about $500 cheaper than the PS2 ZP.
The Bridgestone was actually developed for the Z06 (for whatever reason, GM decided to stick with GY).
The Bridgestone PP is an outstanding tire, and an equal to the PS2 in almost all conditions (and apparently better in very cold).
Another advantage, since it was designed for the Z06, the tire has the same big look in the rear, unlike the PS2 which looks a little wimpy.
I chose the Bridgestones and I'm happy I did. Besides, they're about $500 cheaper than the PS2 ZP.
Yep. This is why I went with the Bridgestones PP's. Mine is being mounted right now as we speak.
I got mine for $1520.31 with tax, mounting, balancing, stems, nitrogen inflation, 3 year road hazard warranty, lifetime balancing (and rotating, not that it helps me), tire life puncture repair (these tires can not be really repaired from punctures, so it's a replacement). This was from Belle Tire. I also got the manager to inspect my rims and agreed that any damage would result in a replacement of the rim, so I feel confident.
Can't beat that price out the door... the ZP's would have cost me more than 500 out the door over the Pole Positions.
Lastly, it's worth mentioning that the ZP's can chunk if you drive them hard on track surfaces... I did some research and discovered that the Pole Positions gives you far more life span than the ZP's, lots of Z06 owners report 20-30K miles even with spirited driving, some far more.... plus, the wide look is badass to boot. It is worth noting that the ZR1 owners might find the ZP's more effective when discussing with Z06 owners, but that is simply because they have 335's, not 325's... big diff.
Last edited by ockie; 03-30-2011 at 11:51 AM.
03-30-2011, 01:06 PM
#57
Safety Car
This is the third set of tires on the car 36 k miles. I have run the goodyear run flats 14 k , the bridgesone pole positions 22k and finally these Pilot sports
The are worthless in cold weather estimate 0.7-0.8 MU the bridgestones under the same conditions new were about 1.08 mu now after 22kmiles 1.0 mu. I feel more confident in the handling and stopping performance of my diesel pick up truck than the Z06 with these tires. They are even worse than the goodyears which were also awful in the cold . For reference I am a licensed PE I make my living by doing accident reconstruction and vehicle testing.
The car is currently parked awaiting the arrival of a new set of pole positions. The only place the car is going to be driven to is the tire shop to get these tires taken off. IF you like to drive your ZO6 on those nice winter days or early spring days and you just street driving these Michelin are scary. The Michelin tires pick up every bit of road debris and grit blast the bottom of the car. I am sure for some these are great tires. The tire rack people (Penny) were great they have a set of pole positions being shipped on monday and they are going to take the Michelins back.
The are worthless in cold weather estimate 0.7-0.8 MU the bridgestones under the same conditions new were about 1.08 mu now after 22kmiles 1.0 mu. I feel more confident in the handling and stopping performance of my diesel pick up truck than the Z06 with these tires. They are even worse than the goodyears which were also awful in the cold . For reference I am a licensed PE I make my living by doing accident reconstruction and vehicle testing.
The car is currently parked awaiting the arrival of a new set of pole positions. The only place the car is going to be driven to is the tire shop to get these tires taken off. IF you like to drive your ZO6 on those nice winter days or early spring days and you just street driving these Michelin are scary. The Michelin tires pick up every bit of road debris and grit blast the bottom of the car. I am sure for some these are great tires. The tire rack people (Penny) were great they have a set of pole positions being shipped on monday and they are going to take the Michelins back.
03-30-2011, 01:35 PM
#58
Melting Slicks
"...the wide look is badass..."
Per Tirerack:
Michelin PS2-ZP 325/30x19 has a 13.0" section width.
Bridgestone PP-RFT 325/30x19 has a 13.2" section width.
The front 275/35x18s are identical, each with a 10.9" section width.
If 2/10s of an inch is "badass" you should really like the non-runflat PS2 345/30x19 at 13.8" and the 295/35x18 at 11.9"
Cheers, Paul.
Per Tirerack:
Michelin PS2-ZP 325/30x19 has a 13.0" section width.
Bridgestone PP-RFT 325/30x19 has a 13.2" section width.
The front 275/35x18s are identical, each with a 10.9" section width.
If 2/10s of an inch is "badass" you should really like the non-runflat PS2 345/30x19 at 13.8" and the 295/35x18 at 11.9"
Cheers, Paul.
03-30-2011, 02:16 PM
#59
Former Vendor
The Pilot Sport PS2 is a Max Performance Summer tire member of the Michelin Pilot family of low profile, high-speed tires. Initially developed for Original Equipment (O.E.) on some of the world's most prestigious sports cars and performance sedans, the Pilot Sport PS2 combines world-class dry road traction, handling and cornering. Some of the first Pilot Sport PS2 O.E. fitments included the BMW Alpina Z8, McLaren SLR and Porsche GT2/GT3 models. The Pilot Sport PS2 is not intended to be driven in near-freezing temperatures, through snow or on ice.
03-30-2011, 04:18 PM
#60
Instructor
Member Since: Aug 2010
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"...the wide look is badass..."
Per Tirerack:
Michelin PS2-ZP 325/30x19 has a 13.0" section width.
Bridgestone PP-RFT 325/30x19 has a 13.2" section width.
The front 275/35x18s are identical, each with a 10.9" section width.
If 2/10s of an inch is "badass" you should really like the non-runflat PS2 345/30x19 at 13.8" and the 295/35x18 at 11.9"
Cheers, Paul.
Per Tirerack:
Michelin PS2-ZP 325/30x19 has a 13.0" section width.
Bridgestone PP-RFT 325/30x19 has a 13.2" section width.
The front 275/35x18s are identical, each with a 10.9" section width.
If 2/10s of an inch is "badass" you should really like the non-runflat PS2 345/30x19 at 13.8" and the 295/35x18 at 11.9"
Cheers, Paul.
I take it that you have never had these two tires side to side eh? Do not believe everything you read...
Put a PS2 and a PP side by side and we'll talk again.
Tire companies "cheat" on these measurements. I've bought enough tires to know these games. You should google some threads first. A lot of people run extra wide on the PS2's to make up for this, but this is not my cup of tea.\
I'll start by quoting another poster in another thread:
section width is what the numbers on the tire show - 275 is 275 mm across the widest protion of the tire -- NOT the tread width which can vary considerably even with the same section width. I have Firestones which have a "rim protector" sidewall that makes the section width pretty wide (mine are 295's) but the tread width is almost exactly the same as my old BFG-KDW's that were 275 section width ..below is copied form Tire Rack's website to explain sction width
Section Width
Following the letter(s) that identify the type of vehicle and/or type of service for which the tire was designed, the three-digit numeric portion identifies the tire's "Section Width" (cross section) in millimeters.
P225/50R16 91S
The 225 indicates this tire is 225 millimeters across from the widest point of its outer sidewall to the widest point of its inner sidewall when mounted and measured on a specified width wheel. This measurement is also referred to as the tire's section width. Because many people think of measurements in inches, the 225mm can be converted to inches by dividing the section width in millimeters by 25.4 (the number of millimeters per inch).
225mm / 25.4 = 8.86"
Section Width
Following the letter(s) that identify the type of vehicle and/or type of service for which the tire was designed, the three-digit numeric portion identifies the tire's "Section Width" (cross section) in millimeters.
P225/50R16 91S
The 225 indicates this tire is 225 millimeters across from the widest point of its outer sidewall to the widest point of its inner sidewall when mounted and measured on a specified width wheel. This measurement is also referred to as the tire's section width. Because many people think of measurements in inches, the 225mm can be converted to inches by dividing the section width in millimeters by 25.4 (the number of millimeters per inch).
225mm / 25.4 = 8.86"
Here is some posts to get you started:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c5-g...da-bummed.html
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c5-z...ear-tires.html
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-z...2-zp-size.html
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-z...-on-the-z.html
EDIT: Not bashing the PS2 here and not trying to, PS2's are great tires. If they had made them wider to accommodate and look better, I think it would be a winner hands down. Had PS2's on my caddy and that was why I looked at them with favor bias.... unfortunately I did my research and discovered why I like the PP's more... saving over $600 was another major bonus.
Last edited by ockie; 03-30-2011 at 04:36 PM.