[Z06] Tuning Reveled
08-18-2011, 07:51 AM
#81
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Interesting: most of the time adding headers without a tune did not show much gains though... (based on what has been posted on CF far as dyne numbers)
08-18-2011, 11:37 AM
#82
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St. Jude Donor '09
So you are saying even if the ecm was running at the correct sticometric ratio you gain more power by going OL and richer but not as rich as the original GM programming. {
I find it really interesting that adding more fuel when the cats are going into overtemp actually cools them instead of going into thermal runaway.
Also you say when the ecm goes into low octane mode it stays there until the next refill. Does it know the next refill by the fuel guage going over a certain percentage or by any fuel level increase?
One more question, I bought my 2010 Z06 in CA but live in KC, does GM use the same tune in all the Z's or do they have different tunes based on the original shipping location or elevations?
Thanks again, this is very educational.
I find it really interesting that adding more fuel when the cats are going into overtemp actually cools them instead of going into thermal runaway.
Also you say when the ecm goes into low octane mode it stays there until the next refill. Does it know the next refill by the fuel guage going over a certain percentage or by any fuel level increase?
One more question, I bought my 2010 Z06 in CA but live in KC, does GM use the same tune in all the Z's or do they have different tunes based on the original shipping location or elevations?
Thanks again, this is very educational.
Back in the 60s and 70s, pre-fuel injection like we have today, the carburetors had accelerator pumps which would provide the extra fuel for stomp. Without that feature, bogging could take place.
OL is active when you first start the car until a specific water temp, then CL begins. Same idea. PE is working like a choke.
Every ECM is the same. I have tuned Z06s in Scottland, Italy, France, UK, Germany, UAE, and a few countries I cannot remember. All were the same back in 2006-08. I have not tuned any recently.
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08-18-2011, 11:48 AM
#83
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St. Jude Donor '09
The collectors are pretty unimportant until an overlap cam is part of the picture. Then tube size, length and collector length make a difference.
It all adds up.
The biggest bang for the buck is our Super Bee MF103/Nick Williams TB/FAST LSXR intake, long tube 2" headers, tuning. That combo will make 50+ horsepower on most chassis dynos. This is the combo Katech recommends on all of their Attack builds.
Back in 2006 when we took our 06Z06 to Katech, it dynoed at 496 RWHP. Halltech F1 intake, emailTUNE, and Kooks.
The benchmark then was 508 RWHP with the Callaway intake, Katech Cam. Stock TB and intake manifold.
I told Jason to leave the tune alone and put in their Torquer 110 cam, springs, retainers.
2006 benchmark : 538 RWHP. Katech would not adopt our F1 filter, which is why I designed the Super Bee and Killer Bee intakes.
Since then we have seen the NW102 TB, FAST intake (both first tested on our current Z06 motor) and the Super Bee CF112/MF103.
Our Z06 has a milder version of the Torquer and all of the above and makes 594RWHP/568lbsft and 13:1 CR on E85.
Some folks now have gone way beyond 600 RWHP with this combo.
08-18-2011, 10:39 PM
#85
lifeislikeaboxofchocolats
Jim here's wishing you the very best with your health issues.
Your tune and killer bee in my '07 has been flawless since we put it in nearly 5 years ago..would do it again in a heartbeat !
Godspeed to you sir
Your tune and killer bee in my '07 has been flawless since we put it in nearly 5 years ago..would do it again in a heartbeat !
Godspeed to you sir
08-18-2011, 11:09 PM
#87
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St. Jude Donor '09
Tuning voiding warranty?
What if someone wanted the CAGS defeated through the ECM, tire size changed for larger tires, and the fan on temp changed to a lower temp. That would involve three recalibrations in the ECM, and would be considered tuning by GM.
Should this void the warranty on the drivetrain? What if the CAGS defeat was installed on the tranny wiring instead? What about the Mild to Wild type switch that allows the driver more control?
Should a warranty be denied for minor recalibrations to allow folks to bypass the 1-4 shift, and keep the motor cooler? These are some of the changes we can make when tuning that make absolutely no difference to the motor or tranny, yet could be reason for warranty revocation.
Should this void the warranty on the drivetrain? What if the CAGS defeat was installed on the tranny wiring instead? What about the Mild to Wild type switch that allows the driver more control?
Should a warranty be denied for minor recalibrations to allow folks to bypass the 1-4 shift, and keep the motor cooler? These are some of the changes we can make when tuning that make absolutely no difference to the motor or tranny, yet could be reason for warranty revocation.
08-19-2011, 03:39 PM
#89
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What if someone wanted the CAGS defeated through the ECM, tire size changed for larger tires, and the fan on temp changed to a lower temp. That would involve three recalibrations in the ECM, and would be considered tuning by GM.
Should this void the warranty on the drivetrain? What if the CAGS defeat was installed on the tranny wiring instead? What about the Mild to Wild type switch that allows the driver more control?
Should a warranty be denied for minor recalibrations to allow folks to bypass the 1-4 shift, and keep the motor cooler? These are some of the changes we can make when tuning that make absolutely no difference to the motor or tranny, yet could be reason for warranty revocation.
Should this void the warranty on the drivetrain? What if the CAGS defeat was installed on the tranny wiring instead? What about the Mild to Wild type switch that allows the driver more control?
Should a warranty be denied for minor recalibrations to allow folks to bypass the 1-4 shift, and keep the motor cooler? These are some of the changes we can make when tuning that make absolutely no difference to the motor or tranny, yet could be reason for warranty revocation.
08-19-2011, 03:46 PM
#90
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So I'm curious about the stoich number in the calibration: first I always thought that the stock O2 weren't really good at reading much past the 14.7, so if one was to change the target from 14.7 to 14.1 (for the added 10% of ethanol), would the stock O2 be accurate enough stil? would that help anything else?
08-19-2011, 04:14 PM
#91
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St. Jude Donor '09
So I'm curious about the stoich number in the calibration: first I always thought that the stock O2 weren't really good at reading much past the 14.7, so if one was to change the target from 14.7 to 14.1 (for the added 10% of ethanol), would the stock O2 be accurate enough stil? would that help anything else?
The ECM can be set to any stoich you want. Too bad GM didn't just use a FF ECM instead of the E38 we have.
Jim
Last edited by Halltech; 08-19-2011 at 04:17 PM.
08-21-2011, 01:04 PM
#92
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Get Better
Although I dont know either 1 of you - My prayers go out to you Jim and Painrace. God Bless!! TO Vettern835, commendable and respectable admitting what you have. I know Im late and really not to start the whole political thing up again but really respect and agree with what you have stated in regard to where this country is going Painrace. Thus, coming from a younger, not that wealthy and certainly not afraid of much, American who is not republican, but conservative and struggled really hard to be where Im at today. Lastly, if any1 feels that this great country is not in route to socializm, they really need to take another look...
"socializm is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy. Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.."
---Winston Churchill---
God Bless America (we need you!!!)
"socializm is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy. Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.."
---Winston Churchill---
God Bless America (we need you!!!)
08-24-2011, 01:46 PM
#93
Actually, running your car in closed loop to 1/2 throttle makes little sense, except to the headmaster at GM. That means your are driving at nearly 15:1 air fuel ratio all the time. Makes for great EPA mileage numbers, but that's it.
Having the transition to OL at 16 to 20% makes new found throttle response and worse mileage on the downside, because you find going into fuel enrichment a torque paradise.
The PE/RPM static open loop table is the table that effectively provides an equivalency ratio for each rpm. In the case of the LS7, every 250 rpm there is a ratio for that rpm and OL. For instance, at peak HP, or around 6500 rpm the table commands a 1.27 EQ. So if your stoichiometric value is 14.7:1 you divide 14.7 by 1.27= 11.57:1 air fuel ratio. That is very rich and will not make best power. This is what GM gives you.
At 6000 rpm the EQ is 1.31. 14.7/1.31=11.22:1 commanded air fuel ratio.
Commanded assumes stock volumetric efficiency and MAF transfer curve accuracy. If your intake is made with a +13.3% larger MAF read area, that 13.3% will be under-reported in OL as well as CL, but OL has no communication with CL or the O2 sensors, so it is on its own, depending on the MAF sensor readings. The result is around 13.1:1 air fuel ratio due to the under-reported airflow.
Generally speaking it is better to recalibrate the MAF transfer curve to get the LTFTs closer to zero both banks.
The 13.1:1 air fuel ratio might make plenty of power on the road with maximum cooling/Beehive to keep IATs ambient, but put that car on the dyno and you would likely see poor power. Why? GM's safety protocol is much more likely to kick in with that much new air in OL. AT 1616F degrees at the cats, the cat overtemp protection equivalency ratio kicks in and adds as much a three levels of fuel. That last level for 1700F plus degrees is 1.205. Down you go into the 10:1 air fuel ratio and whatever power you made, is masked by super fuel enrichment.
Timing is pulled when knock sensors see pinging, and if too much knock is recorded, you drop into Low Octane timing, which is around 10 degrees less timing that High Octane. Yes, the ECM has a knock count protocol. You sit in Low Octane until you refill the tank. 91 Octane state Corvettes run Low Octane tables most of the time, especially when it is really hot.
Power tuning is a balancing act, which done wrong is not good for motor longevity. There are many many factors to consider when deciding on tuning or not to tune. For most, leaving your car alone with an intake that does not require recalibrating the MAF tables, and headers is the hot ticket.
Jim Hall
Having the transition to OL at 16 to 20% makes new found throttle response and worse mileage on the downside, because you find going into fuel enrichment a torque paradise.
The PE/RPM static open loop table is the table that effectively provides an equivalency ratio for each rpm. In the case of the LS7, every 250 rpm there is a ratio for that rpm and OL. For instance, at peak HP, or around 6500 rpm the table commands a 1.27 EQ. So if your stoichiometric value is 14.7:1 you divide 14.7 by 1.27= 11.57:1 air fuel ratio. That is very rich and will not make best power. This is what GM gives you.
At 6000 rpm the EQ is 1.31. 14.7/1.31=11.22:1 commanded air fuel ratio.
Commanded assumes stock volumetric efficiency and MAF transfer curve accuracy. If your intake is made with a +13.3% larger MAF read area, that 13.3% will be under-reported in OL as well as CL, but OL has no communication with CL or the O2 sensors, so it is on its own, depending on the MAF sensor readings. The result is around 13.1:1 air fuel ratio due to the under-reported airflow.
Generally speaking it is better to recalibrate the MAF transfer curve to get the LTFTs closer to zero both banks.
The 13.1:1 air fuel ratio might make plenty of power on the road with maximum cooling/Beehive to keep IATs ambient, but put that car on the dyno and you would likely see poor power. Why? GM's safety protocol is much more likely to kick in with that much new air in OL. AT 1616F degrees at the cats, the cat overtemp protection equivalency ratio kicks in and adds as much a three levels of fuel. That last level for 1700F plus degrees is 1.205. Down you go into the 10:1 air fuel ratio and whatever power you made, is masked by super fuel enrichment.
Timing is pulled when knock sensors see pinging, and if too much knock is recorded, you drop into Low Octane timing, which is around 10 degrees less timing that High Octane. Yes, the ECM has a knock count protocol. You sit in Low Octane until you refill the tank. 91 Octane state Corvettes run Low Octane tables most of the time, especially when it is really hot.
Power tuning is a balancing act, which done wrong is not good for motor longevity. There are many many factors to consider when deciding on tuning or not to tune. For most, leaving your car alone with an intake that does not require recalibrating the MAF tables, and headers is the hot ticket.
Jim Hall
Like all the others have said, I also would like to extended best wishes and success to you with your health and whatever future directions you choose to go. Your shared insight and knowledge has been a blessing to many of us on this site, along with the great products you sell.
This particular post I quoted from you is awesome, especially for us owner's here in the desert S.W. Many a transplanted C6 Z06 owner from other parts of the Country to this area don't fully understand why their cars don't perform as well as they remember, or why their dyno numbers are WAY off from what they registered when they lived elsewhere.
I highlighted 3 areas in your post that maybe you could comment on further.
I notice that even with our E10 91 octane fuel here in Arizona, my car can get calculated highway mileage in excess of 30 MPG while on long stretches of flat highway, with a contant speed of 80+ MPH on cruise control. If the car can keep this contant cruise speed with minimal throttle input, the lean CL condition of the factory tune, combined with the higher DA ( and much less dense air) IMHO can contribute to highway mileage cycles that are significantly greater than the factory EPA rating, or cars driven at or near sea level with moderate tempatures.
Your thoughts ?
Fuel enrichment and E85....while I understand most people feel they wouldn't get a significant boost in peek HP by going to E85 on a stock LS7, my thought is that by properly tuning for E85 I would see a very positive torque bump in the low to mid-range area of my powerband because of the power enrichment ?
Finally, the low octane table when running 91 Octane and high heat are combined....
I go through this argument all the time with other local Corvette owners who don't fully understand what octane and high air temps have on our cars...especially stock tuned cars. They have a hard time understanding that I run high octane racing fuel mixes at the track, not to build MORE power than the stock tune allows, but for preservation of the 505 SAE BHP the engine is rated for by simply trying to mitigate knock retard's influence. While I generally run my tank down to the "Low Fuel" DIC message (at which time I think I have roughly 2 gallons in reserve) before putting 4 gallons of Sunoco GT109 in the tank, do you know what triggers the change from the Low Octane tables to the High Octane tables when a better quality of fuel is introduced ? Is it the fuel level, the opening of the fuel door, or something else that triggers the ECU back into it's optimum performace programming ?
Once again, thank you for help and knowledge you've brought to the forum over the years....I know personally I've greatly appreciated it
08-24-2011, 04:20 PM
#94
Le Mans Master
Although I dont know either 1 of you - My prayers go out to you Jim and Painrace. God Bless!! TO Vettern835, commendable and respectable admitting what you have. I know Im late and really not to start the whole political thing up again but really respect and agree with what you have stated in regard to where this country is going Painrace. Thus, coming from a younger, not that wealthy and certainly not afraid of much, American who is not republican, but conservative and struggled really hard to be where Im at today. Lastly, if any1 feels that this great country is not in route to socializm, they really need to take another look...
"socializm is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy. Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.."
---Winston Churchill---
God Bless America (we need you!!!)
"socializm is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy. Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.."
---Winston Churchill---
God Bless America (we need you!!!)
I must tell you I still believe in America I just think for a while we have been going in the wrong direction. It has happened before and we have corrected. With God's help, we will correct again!
Jim
08-24-2011, 05:02 PM
#96
Although I dont know either 1 of you - My prayers go out to you Jim and Painrace. God Bless!! TO Vettern835, commendable and respectable admitting what you have. I know Im late and really not to start the whole political thing up again but really respect and agree with what you have stated in regard to where this country is going Painrace. Thus, coming from a younger, not that wealthy and certainly not afraid of much, American who is not republican, but conservative and struggled really hard to be where Im at today. Lastly, if any1 feels that this great country is not in route to socializm, they really need to take another look...
"socializm is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy. Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.."
---Winston Churchill---
God Bless America (we need you!!!)
"socializm is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy. Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.."
---Winston Churchill---
God Bless America (we need you!!!)
08-24-2011, 05:03 PM
#97
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St. Jude Donor '09
[QUOTE=FNBADAZ06;1578507589]Jim,
Like all the others have said, I also would like to extended best wishes and success to you with your health and whatever future directions you choose to go. Your shared insight and knowledge has been a blessing to many of us on this site, along with the great products you sell.
This particular post I quoted from you is awesome, especially for us owner's here in the desert S.W. Many a transplanted C6 Z06 owner from other parts of the Country to this area don't fully understand why their cars don't perform as well as they remember, or why their dyno numbers are WAY off from what they registered when they lived elsewhere.
I highlighted 3 areas in your post that maybe you could comment on further.
Tuning and our intake might improve fuel mileage on the long trip, but 91 Octane kills performance and cannot help mileage since there is a loss of 10 degrees timing in the Low Octane table.
No. E85 is much less efficient that E10 from a BTU standpoint, and does not show gains in power unless the CR is raised to a minimum of 13:1. Timing can than be adjusted upward for better power and torque. We run as much as 28 degrees timing at full tilt, which is too much timing for E10 on an 11:1 CR.
I do not know the answer to that. The tables reset to HO after a fillup. The knock count is always active, and can send the tables back into LO (modified limp mode) if too many knocks are detected. 10% E85 and the rest in 91 would possibly cure this. Just hook up logging software and watch the timing (not while driving)
..
See above
Like all the others have said, I also would like to extended best wishes and success to you with your health and whatever future directions you choose to go. Your shared insight and knowledge has been a blessing to many of us on this site, along with the great products you sell.
This particular post I quoted from you is awesome, especially for us owner's here in the desert S.W. Many a transplanted C6 Z06 owner from other parts of the Country to this area don't fully understand why their cars don't perform as well as they remember, or why their dyno numbers are WAY off from what they registered when they lived elsewhere.
I highlighted 3 areas in your post that maybe you could comment on further.
I notice that even with our E10 91 octane fuel here in Arizona, my car can get calculated highway mileage in excess of 30 MPG while on long stretches of flat highway, with a contant speed of 80+ MPH on cruise control. If the car can keep this contant cruise speed with minimal throttle input, the lean CL condition of the factory tune, combined with the higher DA ( and much less dense air) IMHO can contribute to highway mileage cycles that are significantly greater than the factory EPA rating, or cars driven at or near sea level with moderate tempatures.
Your thoughts ?
Your thoughts ?
Fuel enrichment and E85....while I understand most people feel they wouldn't get a significant boost in peek HP by going to E85 on a stock LS7, my thought is that by properly tuning for E85 I would see a very positive torque bump in the low to mid-range area of my powerband because of the power enrichment ?
I go through this argument all the time with other local Corvette owners who don't fully understand what octane and high air temps have on our cars...especially stock tuned cars. They have a hard time understanding that I run high octane racing fuel mixes at the track, not to build MORE power than the stock tune allows, but for preservation of the 505 SAE BHP the engine is rated for by simply trying to mitigate knock retard's influence. While I generally run my tank down to the "Low Fuel" DIC message (at which time I think I have roughly 2 gallons in reserve) before putting 4 gallons of Sunoco GT109 in the tank, do you know what triggers the change from the Low Octane tables to the High Octane tables when a better quality of fuel is introduced ? Is it the fuel level, the opening of the fuel door, or something else that triggers the ECU back into it's optimum performace programming ?
..
See above
Last edited by Halltech; 08-24-2011 at 05:06 PM.
08-25-2011, 02:34 PM
#98
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A Mail Order Tune with SCT
I have a 06 Z06 with the Calaway Honker, Fast 102 with Ported stock throttle body already installed. A set of Kooks 1 7/8 headers with Converters and a Kateck Torquer 110 ready to install. Do you have a tune that would work with that competition? I live in Fairfax Va only a few above sea level.
John
John
08-25-2011, 04:09 PM
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St. Jude Donor '09
I have a 06 Z06 with the Calaway Honker, Fast 102 with Ported stock throttle body already installed. A set of Kooks 1 7/8 headers with Converters and a Kateck Torquer 110 ready to install. Do you have a tune that would work with that competition? I live in Fairfax Va only a few above sea level.
John
John
Jim