Methanol Question
Drifting
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,563
Likes: 334
From: Indianapolis Indiana
Exactly, I made a similar comment in POST #10 talking about dry ice. I'm sure it would be the same deal with ice water. You would have to valve off the intercooler or not use one at all.
Pro
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 721
Likes: 36
Yep--I have seen where the a/w intercooler was valved off and an ice chest was strapped in instead--for those special times
But you are really not getting the max potential out of the engine/tune in that manner. You will end up running lean --if you are not careful.
How? Some may ask?
It's this way. if your pcm is using the oem ait sensor and that ait is before the intercooler or w/m nozzle then the pcm will instruct the injectors to give the engine so much fuel according to that ait reading ( almong other things too!). Now if you are cooling the intake charge temps with ice or w/m injection, you are making the intake charge denser. That means the engine is getting more grams per sec of air flow than the pcm is injecting for. That can been a very bad thing. You have to be careful with this stuff.
But you are really not getting the max potential out of the engine/tune in that manner. You will end up running lean --if you are not careful.
How? Some may ask?
It's this way. if your pcm is using the oem ait sensor and that ait is before the intercooler or w/m nozzle then the pcm will instruct the injectors to give the engine so much fuel according to that ait reading ( almong other things too!). Now if you are cooling the intake charge temps with ice or w/m injection, you are making the intake charge denser. That means the engine is getting more grams per sec of air flow than the pcm is injecting for. That can been a very bad thing. You have to be careful with this stuff.
Drifting
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,563
Likes: 334
From: Indianapolis Indiana
I'll probably never do anything exotic toward adding extra cooling to my blower but one thing for sure all roots style blowers are a big heavy block of metal, 71 lbs. for E Force, that holds heat. One run and that baby's hot and all the cooling water is hot and it isn't going to cool off at all on a hot day.
I'll always be thinking of simple ways to cool it down like a bag of ice or external fan but one of these days some brainiac will figure out. Maybe we ought to start a thread and let people list ways they are cooling the air.
I'll always be thinking of simple ways to cool it down like a bag of ice or external fan but one of these days some brainiac will figure out. Maybe we ought to start a thread and let people list ways they are cooling the air.
Pro
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 721
Likes: 36
Roots type blowers are notorious for heat production. Compressing air will always heat the intake charge. Just physics.
Some place a w.m injector nozzle right before the blowers intake. That will help cool the blower and actually increase the sealing between the sc body and the rotors...giving you an additional lb or so off boost.
I ran a twin screw and the sc would actually develope almost a frost on it!
The down side to that is the blower will need annual cleaning...deposits do build over time.
Other than that ..the only other thing that will help is a true cold air intake...which you already have...right?
Some place a w.m injector nozzle right before the blowers intake. That will help cool the blower and actually increase the sealing between the sc body and the rotors...giving you an additional lb or so off boost.
I ran a twin screw and the sc would actually develope almost a frost on it!
The down side to that is the blower will need annual cleaning...deposits do build over time.
Other than that ..the only other thing that will help is a true cold air intake...which you already have...right?
Drifting
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,563
Likes: 334
From: Indianapolis Indiana
FYI, The last time out at the drag strip the air temp was 86 degrees. On my last run of the night the IAT was 153* at the starting line and jumped to 162* at the end of the run (1/8 mile). I start pulling timing at IAT 149* (pulling 1.5* timing) and at IAT 167* (pulling 3* timing). Water temp was good around 200* or so. Boost peaked at 6.67 lbs. Timing dropped to 10.5* of advance. No knock at all. I'm pleased with the way it runs but the point I guess I making is that every run increased IAT. In other words the best run of the night was the first run.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,153
Likes: 114
Where is the IAT sensor on the Eforce? I would guess t would be down wind of the intercoolers. Thus it shouldn't matter how cold you get the air withheld intercooler(s) as the IAT will acomidate for it....
As for how to keep a PD blower cool it's been covered here loads before. Have a look in the LS9 sections for some more ideas. Basically it's the same as all forms of FI. You need good intercooling and meth injection can help. Basically you want as large HE as you can and as free flowing intlet to the SC as you can.
The problem with top mounted PD blowers is you are often restricted on space for intercooling and you have limited to no space for post intercooler meth injection. Obviously with a centri or turbo you have loads of options.
As for how to keep a PD blower cool it's been covered here loads before. Have a look in the LS9 sections for some more ideas. Basically it's the same as all forms of FI. You need good intercooling and meth injection can help. Basically you want as large HE as you can and as free flowing intlet to the SC as you can.
The problem with top mounted PD blowers is you are often restricted on space for intercooling and you have limited to no space for post intercooler meth injection. Obviously with a centri or turbo you have loads of options.
Drifting
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,563
Likes: 334
From: Indianapolis Indiana
Where is the IAT sensor on the Eforce? I would guess t would be down wind of the intercoolers. Thus it shouldn't matter how cold you get the air withheld intercooler(s) as the IAT will acomidate for it....
As for how to keep a PD blower cool it's been covered here loads before. Have a look in the LS9 sections for some more ideas. Basically it's the same as all forms of FI. You need good intercooling and meth injection can help. Basically you want as large HE as you can and as free flowing intlet to the SC as you can.
The problem with top mounted PD blowers is you are often restricted on space for intercooling and you have limited to no space for post intercooler meth injection. Obviously with a centri or turbo you have loads of options.
As for how to keep a PD blower cool it's been covered here loads before. Have a look in the LS9 sections for some more ideas. Basically it's the same as all forms of FI. You need good intercooling and meth injection can help. Basically you want as large HE as you can and as free flowing intlet to the SC as you can.
The problem with top mounted PD blowers is you are often restricted on space for intercooling and you have limited to no space for post intercooler meth injection. Obviously with a centri or turbo you have loads of options.
Thanks for the heads up on searching the LS9 section for cooling options. I really doubt I do anything more than the way it is though. I'm quite satisfied with the way it runs. If someone comes up with a simple way to cool things down I might try it but for now I'll just race on cool days.
I obviously own an e-force and bought it for reasons that suit me but totally agree that centri's and turbo's have definite cooling advantages over the roots style blowers.
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Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 122
Likes: 0
From: Alliance OH
Where is the IAT sensor on the Eforce? I would guess t would be down wind of the intercoolers. Thus it shouldn't matter how cold you get the air withheld intercooler(s) as the IAT will acomidate for it....
As for how to keep a PD blower cool it's been covered here loads before. Have a look in the LS9 sections for some more ideas. Basically it's the same as all forms of FI. You need good intercooling and meth injection can help. Basically you want as large HE as you can and as free flowing intlet to the SC as you can.
The problem with top mounted PD blowers is you are often restricted on space for intercooling and you have limited to no space for post intercooler meth injection. Obviously with a centri or turbo you have loads of options.
As for how to keep a PD blower cool it's been covered here loads before. Have a look in the LS9 sections for some more ideas. Basically it's the same as all forms of FI. You need good intercooling and meth injection can help. Basically you want as large HE as you can and as free flowing intlet to the SC as you can.
The problem with top mounted PD blowers is you are often restricted on space for intercooling and you have limited to no space for post intercooler meth injection. Obviously with a centri or turbo you have loads of options.
On mine I also use an ice box for the IC circuit that holds around 8-10# of ice and I can get the IC water temp down to around 40-50 deg. I also use Water/Meth system in front of the SC but it does not seem to help the IAT once the SC gets hot after 1-2 passes. On a 80 deg day my IAT starts around 120 deg and goes up to 145-150 at the end of a mid 10 sec pass. I suspect that on a cooler day the temps will be much lower all around, so looking forward to seeing how it runs in the Fall.
Thanks,
Drifting
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,563
Likes: 334
From: Indianapolis Indiana
I believe the E-Force uses a Bosch IAT/MAP combo sensor that is mounted on the pass side rear of the SC, below the IC core, so it is after the IC core. However, as others have pointed out these are 70+ lbs of aluminum that act kind of like a giant heat sink, and once it gets hot it stays that way for a long time. If your not looking for every last HP, they are a great SC for daily driving.
On mine I also use an ice box for the IC circuit that holds around 8-10# of ice and I can get the IC water temp down to around 40-50 deg. I also use Water/Meth system in front of the SC but it does not seem to help the IAT once the SC gets hot after 1-2 passes. On a 80 deg day my IAT starts around 120 deg and goes up to 145-150 at the end of a mid 10 sec pass. I suspect that on a cooler day the temps will be much lower all around, so looking forward to seeing how it runs in the Fall.
Thanks,
On mine I also use an ice box for the IC circuit that holds around 8-10# of ice and I can get the IC water temp down to around 40-50 deg. I also use Water/Meth system in front of the SC but it does not seem to help the IAT once the SC gets hot after 1-2 passes. On a 80 deg day my IAT starts around 120 deg and goes up to 145-150 at the end of a mid 10 sec pass. I suspect that on a cooler day the temps will be much lower all around, so looking forward to seeing how it runs in the Fall.
Thanks,
I'll probably not do any day racing until this fall.
Pro
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 721
Likes: 36
Ok...a true cold air intake would be the best thing to do first ...period. Unless you do that you will just be chasing your own tail.
Heat sinks .. As far as heating up the intake charge is not as big of a contibuter as you may think . The air is just traveling to fast. It would be interesting to measure your pre s.c. Temps
Read some tech papers at Kenne Bells site.
Not only is the hot air not good for performance...it also is hurting your s.c.
ANY forced induction is going to heat the charge.
This can turn into a very complex subject.
Sorry typing on a mobile device and I can't get wordy..fingers are not that coordinated!
Heat sinks .. As far as heating up the intake charge is not as big of a contibuter as you may think . The air is just traveling to fast. It would be interesting to measure your pre s.c. Temps
Read some tech papers at Kenne Bells site.
Not only is the hot air not good for performance...it also is hurting your s.c.
ANY forced induction is going to heat the charge.
This can turn into a very complex subject.
Sorry typing on a mobile device and I can't get wordy..fingers are not that coordinated!
Drifting
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,563
Likes: 334
From: Indianapolis Indiana
Ok...a true cold air intake would be the best thing to do first ...period. Unless you do that you will just be chasing your own tail.
Heat sinks .. As far as heating up the intake charge is not as big of a contibuter as you may think . The air is just traveling to fast. It would be interesting to measure your pre s.c. Temps
Read some tech papers at Kenne Bells site.
Not only is the hot air not good for performance...it also is hurting your s.c.
ANY forced induction is going to heat the charge.
This can turn into a very complex subject.
Sorry typing on a mobile device and I can't get wordy..fingers are not that coordinated!
Heat sinks .. As far as heating up the intake charge is not as big of a contibuter as you may think . The air is just traveling to fast. It would be interesting to measure your pre s.c. Temps
Read some tech papers at Kenne Bells site.
Not only is the hot air not good for performance...it also is hurting your s.c.
ANY forced induction is going to heat the charge.
This can turn into a very complex subject.
Sorry typing on a mobile device and I can't get wordy..fingers are not that coordinated!
I'll hop over to the Kenny Bell site and do a little reading.
You probably type faster than I do with a keyboard! Thank God for a spell checker.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,153
Likes: 114
Ok...a true cold air intake would be the best thing to do first ...period. Unless you do that you will just be chasing your own tail.
Heat sinks .. As far as heating up the intake charge is not as big of a contibuter as you may think . The air is just traveling to fast. It would be interesting to measure your pre s.c. Temps
Read some tech papers at Kenne Bells site.
Not only is the hot air not good for performance...it also is hurting your s.c.
ANY forced induction is going to heat the charge.
This can turn into a very complex subject.
Sorry typing on a mobile device and I can't get wordy..fingers are not that coordinated!
Heat sinks .. As far as heating up the intake charge is not as big of a contibuter as you may think . The air is just traveling to fast. It would be interesting to measure your pre s.c. Temps
Read some tech papers at Kenne Bells site.
Not only is the hot air not good for performance...it also is hurting your s.c.
ANY forced induction is going to heat the charge.
This can turn into a very complex subject.
Sorry typing on a mobile device and I can't get wordy..fingers are not that coordinated!
Also you want a large filter as you can and as straight shot from the SC to the filter as pos. I will post a link to a good thread on the ls9 section about cai's!
Melting Slicks
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,153
Likes: 114
I believe the E-Force uses a Bosch IAT/MAP combo sensor that is mounted on the pass side rear of the SC, below the IC core, so it is after the IC core. However, as others have pointed out these are 70+ lbs of aluminum that act kind of like a giant heat sink, and once it gets hot it stays that way for a long time. If your not looking for every last HP, they are a great SC for daily driving.
On mine I also use an ice box for the IC circuit that holds around 8-10# of ice and I can get the IC water temp down to around 40-50 deg. I also use Water/Meth system in front of the SC but it does not seem to help the IAT once the SC gets hot after 1-2 passes. On a 80 deg day my IAT starts around 120 deg and goes up to 145-150 at the end of a mid 10 sec pass. I suspect that on a cooler day the temps will be much lower all around, so looking forward to seeing how it runs in the Fall.
Thanks,
On mine I also use an ice box for the IC circuit that holds around 8-10# of ice and I can get the IC water temp down to around 40-50 deg. I also use Water/Meth system in front of the SC but it does not seem to help the IAT once the SC gets hot after 1-2 passes. On a 80 deg day my IAT starts around 120 deg and goes up to 145-150 at the end of a mid 10 sec pass. I suspect that on a cooler day the temps will be much lower all around, so looking forward to seeing how it runs in the Fall.
Thanks,
Drifting
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,944
Likes: 48
From: CT
If direct port hasn't been done by anybody on an e-force yet it probably cant be done
There would be some shop claiming to be "The first with direct port meth on an E-Force" just like all the tuners that buy the new model cars right away and are the first at whatever
First ZR1 in the 9's, in the 8's etc...
I did see some guy with a Camaro put a single nozzle on the top of an e-force though, not sure how it worked.
There would be some shop claiming to be "The first with direct port meth on an E-Force" just like all the tuners that buy the new model cars right away and are the first at whatever
First ZR1 in the 9's, in the 8's etc...
I did see some guy with a Camaro put a single nozzle on the top of an e-force though, not sure how it worked.