Alky Control question
Thread Starter
Intermediate
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 45
Likes: 2
From: Milwaukee WI
Alky Control question
This might sound dumb but I purchase a alky meth kit for my c6z and my goals is to keep my IAT down due to after WOT I pull timing as the IAT increase. I am supercharged and running on e85 and wanting even more cooling. I been trying to figure out where the placement of the nozzle must go. I've been hearing it's goes after the MAF and before the TB however my IAT are read off of the MAF and so wouldn't they still read the same since the nozzle is after the MAF? Am I suppose to order another IAT sensor to place somewhere after the TB? If so why wouldn't it come with the kit? Can someone help me out?
Drifting
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 1,291
Likes: 222
From: Temecula, CA
You'll need an IAT breakout harness to relocate the IAT sensor from the MAF to a position closer to the throttle body on the intake charge pipe so that it can accurately measure the cooler IAT temps. Nozzle should be between the MAF and the IAT sensor/throttle body.
Pro
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 660
Likes: 63
From: Fresno CA
Cash1333 how do you plan on displaying your IATs? Gauge?
Acct Suspended APR 2026 by request
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 10,367
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2020 Corvette of the Year Finalist (performance mods)
C5 of Year Winner (performance mods) 2019
if you're running e85 you may not necessarily need meth anymore... if your tuner never adjusted the iat table after tuning on e85 have them look at that first, they can raise the threshold and as long as you have no knock you're good
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Thread Starter
Intermediate
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 45
Likes: 2
From: Milwaukee WI
Also What I am reading I just buy a break out kit and a IAT sensor? does the break out kit come with an IAT sensor?
Melting Slicks
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 3,185
Likes: 779
Dashlogic can read almost anything you tell it to....including IAT temps, it displays through your HUD. Pretty cool gadget. Lots of guys running those, especially if you want your race car low key without Pilar pods everywhere or just a clean slick look inside.
Race Director
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 16,667
Likes: 1,209
From: Raleigh, NC
St. Jude Donor '15
I’d get the pop in style one. You can buy the sensor and grommet at advance auto. If you need the part numbers let me know.
Which SC setup are you running?
I’m assuming you’re sure it’s actually using the MAF? A lot of FI setups do SD tunes that don’t use the MAF. In that case you can spray before the MAF and skip the break out harness, etc.
Which SC setup are you running?
I’m assuming you’re sure it’s actually using the MAF? A lot of FI setups do SD tunes that don’t use the MAF. In that case you can spray before the MAF and skip the break out harness, etc.
Last edited by schpenxel; Apr 5, 2019 at 07:37 AM.
Thread Starter
Intermediate
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 45
Likes: 2
From: Milwaukee WI
I’d get the pop in style one. You can buy the sensor and grommet at advance auto. If you need the part numbers let me know.
Which SC setup are you running?
I’m assuming you’re sure it’s actually using the MAF? A lot of FI setups do SD tunes that don’t use the MAF. In that case you can spray before the MAF and skip the break out harness, etc.
Which SC setup are you running?
I’m assuming you’re sure it’s actually using the MAF? A lot of FI setups do SD tunes that don’t use the MAF. In that case you can spray before the MAF and skip the break out harness, etc.
Race Director
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 16,667
Likes: 1,209
From: Raleigh, NC
St. Jude Donor '15
If you're using an SD tune then it doesn't matter if you spray on the MAF since the only thing about it actually being used is the IAT anyways. That's why I asked.
All you need is the harness, a sensor and grommet. The grommet and sensor you can get at Advance Auto if they aren't included worst case.
Call ECS, they sell a kit with everything.
All you need is the harness, a sensor and grommet. The grommet and sensor you can get at Advance Auto if they aren't included worst case.
Call ECS, they sell a kit with everything.
Thread Starter
Intermediate
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 45
Likes: 2
From: Milwaukee WI
If you're using an SD tune then it doesn't matter if you spray on the MAF since the only thing about it actually being used is the IAT anyways. That's why I asked.
All you need is the harness, a sensor and grommet. The grommet and sensor you can get at Advance Auto if they aren't included worst case.
Call ECS, they sell a kit with everything.
All you need is the harness, a sensor and grommet. The grommet and sensor you can get at Advance Auto if they aren't included worst case.
Call ECS, they sell a kit with everything.
Pro
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 528
Likes: 245
From: Chicago IL
Safety Car
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,196
Likes: 1,071
From: South Florida
When meth hits an IAT sensor it causes the sensor to read falsely low. Meth/water injection does very little to change IAT. I will follow with references because i know how crazy it sounds.
This is used as a safety feature i.e. readings return to normal if the meth fails. On with the refs/reading:
Lets look around the internet at people who use the systems regularly. Articles and For sale ads are trying to sell you something, will often simply repeat what they read on the company website or for sale ads.
Do not trust those ads. Instead, read what the users of such systems have to say
https://www.miataturbo.net/methanol-...3/#post1149921
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showpost....43&postcount=3
evaporating in the intake tract causes a loss in power, because as a gas it takes up space
https://www.svtperformance.com/threa...#post-13194241
the info is even 'hidden' in the faq
http://www.alcohol-injection.com/en/faq
leaning on 100% meth is risky
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showpost....5&postcount=26
IAT reading while on methanol are bogus
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showpost....8&postcount=44
bogus iat reading
https://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-in...l#post18973099
meth isnt for IAT cooling
https://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-in...l#post18973619
----------
need to add boost to take advantage of aux injection
https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/sho...28&postcount=7
------
cliffs...
-meth/water injection doesn't cool the intake air temperature as much as parrots and for sale ads would have you believe
-100% meth is dangerous and foolish to consider in a majority of applications and should not be considered here because of its invisible flammability
-100% meth is also dangerous because it replaces too much fuel with an aux system that relies on an external pump with a service interval
-water component of injection will reduce power because it absorbs energy and has a high heat capacity
-extra boost pressure is the ideal way to compensate and take advantage of any water/methanol injection system
More reading:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showpost....0&postcount=27
https://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamomet...l#post17542483
https://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamomet...l#post17542512
-------
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showpost....7&postcount=61
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showpost....1&postcount=21
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showpost....8&postcount=33
----------------
https://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-in...l#post16473165
response
---------------
bottom lines:
-water puts out fires
-methanol is a high octane fuel (a 'race' gas) e.g. As octane rating of a fuel goes up (ex. 87 -> 93) energy content of that fuel goes DOWN
-mixtures over 51% methanol will BURN and are NOT recommended for street cars
-water is better at cooling that methanol, because methanol BURNS and ADDS HEAT to the reaction of combustion
This is used as a safety feature i.e. readings return to normal if the meth fails. On with the refs/reading:
Lets look around the internet at people who use the systems regularly. Articles and For sale ads are trying to sell you something, will often simply repeat what they read on the company website or for sale ads.
Do not trust those ads. Instead, read what the users of such systems have to say
https://www.miataturbo.net/methanol-...3/#post1149921
The hype about "chemical intercooling" is BS. To really cool your intake air, you need a heat exchanger.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showpost....43&postcount=3
Quoting this post just for emphasis. Unless you have extremely high IATs, pure water will likely cause a loss in power.
evaporating in the intake tract causes a loss in power, because as a gas it takes up space
https://www.svtperformance.com/threa...#post-13194241
you are introducing methanol particles and water which takes away oxygen from the combustion cycle, without any additional tuning you may actually lose some power since you are losing some of the energy of proper combustion.
the info is even 'hidden' in the faq
http://www.alcohol-injection.com/en/faq
Yes, By increasing the boost pressure you should be able to increase the horsepower.
leaning on 100% meth is risky
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showpost....5&postcount=26
Except if there is any problem whatsoever when running 100% meth. Reduced flow, dodgy pump, whatever. You will destroy your engine. IMO there is less of a cushion when you are replacing lots of your normal fuel, with methanol.
IAT reading while on methanol are bogus
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showpost....8&postcount=44
I would not go by what the IAT reads. most of the time, these big IAT drops are happening because the mist/droplets are touching the IAT sensor. Thus skewing the reading.
bogus iat reading
https://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-in...l#post18973099
You really don't. Just let it do it's thing. You'll know by the change in your AFRs.
meth isnt for IAT cooling
https://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-in...l#post18973619
Cooling the air charge is a slight side benefit IMO. You aren't cooling the charge air by much as a whole. The major benefits are in the CC. I'd think an EGT probe would be the best way to measure Aux inj. temp drops.
The charge temps aren’t largely effected by aux inj. Compare the amount of fluid injected to the amount of air ingested per minute. It’s easy to see that the aux inj fluid can’t effect the air temps much as a whole.
This is easily seen by the "too good to be true" IAT temps some of these guys report. The temp drops reported aren't physically possible. If the reported IAT's were accurate, then none of us would need intercoolers. Yet an intercooler will make more power than aux inj alone every time.
The small amount of extra charge cooling does not need to be compensated for IMO. The actual change in the overall charge temp is tiny. Figure a 6.0 at 6000 rpm and 85% VE flows roughly 15,300 liters of air per minute. So 242,510 gallons per hour. Compare that to the typical 12-15 gph worth of Aux INJ. nozzle.(.002%) It’s like pissing into a hurricane and expecting a big temperature shift.
need to add boost to take advantage of aux injection
https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/sho...28&postcount=7
but you need to be able to increase boost enough to take advantage of this characteristic. If you have a limited max boost pressure that is below waters maximum allowable boost curve, you will see no significant benefit to adding alcohol to the mix.
cliffs...
-meth/water injection doesn't cool the intake air temperature as much as parrots and for sale ads would have you believe
-100% meth is dangerous and foolish to consider in a majority of applications and should not be considered here because of its invisible flammability
-100% meth is also dangerous because it replaces too much fuel with an aux system that relies on an external pump with a service interval
-water component of injection will reduce power because it absorbs energy and has a high heat capacity
-extra boost pressure is the ideal way to compensate and take advantage of any water/methanol injection system
More reading:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showpost....0&postcount=27
All those saying that pure meth is the only way to go are EXTREMELY foolish.
Pure meth is perfect for a forged piston setup with safe ring gaps.
Water cools far more than meth could ever hope to, and guys on stock cast pistons and stock ring gaps would benefit a great deal from using water to keep combustion temps down. Spraying pure meth might keep detonation at bay, but its not going to help keep those rings from butting together or a ring land from breaking. Water WILL.
Pure meth won't corrode your aluminum or your silicone couplers anytime soon. You would need to run about 50 gallons of pure meth through there before you will be able to even see any signs of use.
Pure meth is perfect for a forged piston setup with safe ring gaps.
Water cools far more than meth could ever hope to, and guys on stock cast pistons and stock ring gaps would benefit a great deal from using water to keep combustion temps down. Spraying pure meth might keep detonation at bay, but its not going to help keep those rings from butting together or a ring land from breaking. Water WILL.
Pure meth won't corrode your aluminum or your silicone couplers anytime soon. You would need to run about 50 gallons of pure meth through there before you will be able to even see any signs of use.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamomet...l#post17542483
Now if we turn the smoothing on and zoom in on the curves a bit more, you can still see the bump down low, but I'm actually losing a few HP up top with the meth.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamomet...l#post17542512
So all that water is doing is to help put out the flame so to speak.
We messed with water and meth percentages on my boosted car on the dyno and my car held cooler IATs with the 50:50 water meth mix than straight meth.
Meth will NOT give you more power. It allows you to run more timing and stay away from detonation. As the OP just proved, even adding the timing it's not a significant amount of power increase. It doesn't matter how much meth you are spraying. You won't add more power by spraying more meth. More meth will not always give you the better setup over a meth water mix.
. Biggest reason meth is good for boost is you can up the boost.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showpost....7&postcount=61
What I found at the end of the day was that my car went the fastest mph it's ever been at the boost level I was running it at with a mixture of 85% M1 methanol and 15% water ....
...the highest MPH came when using a little bit of water in there with it.
...the highest MPH came when using a little bit of water in there with it.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showpost....1&postcount=21
...we had problems with the water putting the flame out back at the old shop on different builds....
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showpost....8&postcount=33
So I took my car back to the original dyno where i put down 452/425 max (2.8 pulley and volant intake) and was only able to best 423/436 (2.6 pulley and 50/50 meth)
https://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-in...l#post16473165
Originally Posted by ZNix View Post
Straight methanol is the best at cooling.
Straight methanol is the best at cooling.
No, it's not. It evaporates quicker, so yes, it will give you a lower reading at the IAT sensor, but once it hits the combustion chamber and ignites, it adds to the overall heat in the chamber. Water on the other hand, cools as it evaporates, which is slower at ambient temps, but once it hits the chamber, pulls out considerably more heat, and since it doesn't ignite, it doesn't add anymore heat back into the piston/chamber like methanol does.
bottom lines:
-water puts out fires
-methanol is a high octane fuel (a 'race' gas) e.g. As octane rating of a fuel goes up (ex. 87 -> 93) energy content of that fuel goes DOWN
-mixtures over 51% methanol will BURN and are NOT recommended for street cars
-water is better at cooling that methanol, because methanol BURNS and ADDS HEAT to the reaction of combustion
Pro
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 660
Likes: 63
From: Fresno CA
Kingtal0n now you're making me consider going e85 instead of meth.
So after reading your "bottom lines," I'm not exactly sure what you're saying? Don't use meth? Don't use on a street car? It's not useful? I do appreciate your quotes and sources, as those are helpful. But your message is not entirely clear.
So after reading your "bottom lines," I'm not exactly sure what you're saying? Don't use meth? Don't use on a street car? It's not useful? I do appreciate your quotes and sources, as those are helpful. But your message is not entirely clear.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 3,185
Likes: 779
Kingtal0n now you're making me consider going e85 instead of meth.
So after reading your "bottom lines," I'm not exactly sure what you're saying? Don't use meth? Don't use on a street car? It's not useful? I do appreciate your quotes and sources, as those are helpful. But your message is not entirely clear.
So after reading your "bottom lines," I'm not exactly sure what you're saying? Don't use meth? Don't use on a street car? It's not useful? I do appreciate your quotes and sources, as those are helpful. But your message is not entirely clear.
Pro
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 660
Likes: 63
From: Fresno CA
Budget, mainly. I suppose the only additional parts I'd need to go e85 as well are DSX flex fuel kit. I've already purchased an Alky Control kit, Walbro 450 drop-in, and id1050x.
If I did e85, then meth would basically be just for safety, no? I'm only running a P1SC1 on an '08 base, and planning to push between 7-10lbs.
If I did e85, then meth would basically be just for safety, no? I'm only running a P1SC1 on an '08 base, and planning to push between 7-10lbs.
Last edited by theandrewo; Apr 16, 2019 at 04:13 PM.