The LS2 has been interesting so far.... Once the COT is set and or disabled it is easy to dial in AFR. The Tq management is a real limiter on the performance but we can disable it. The LS2s are all VERY sensitive TOO sensitive to intake air temp. Testing on the dyno has proved very promising.

General-Right now LS2 edit will allow us to manipulate idle quality and airflow tables for guys with cams and such. We can raise the rev limiter, and idle speed. Note: most C6s with intake and exh make peak power @ 6200RPM. We can mask codes if needed depending on mods. The CAGS can be disabled. It wont be long before it can be used as a shift light like it was on the C5s. We can set the fans to come on at a given temp. Tq mngmt can be set to a limiter over 6000ft lbs. as opposed to the stk limit of 281ft lbs. When the TM is set out of range part throttle becomes much more responsive. I believe that the stk tables are not allowing the throttle blade to be manipulated like you think they should be with your right foot. It is not a 1:1 relationship between the pedal and throttle blade but once that has been changed the response is very different and under the curve she is much more fun to drive.


Fuel-We can change the fuel curve throughout from the base tables to the WOT. We can put the AFR where it needs to be and disable the COT that overly enrichens the mixture.

Spark timing-We have the control to make the high and low octane tables the same so when there is knock detected you will not be losing timing accross the board by defaulting to the low oct table. Intake air temp timing retard is very aggressive on the C6. When it heats up it loses power. We make it much more aggressive to average more power accross the power band after she heats up. We are able to control timing from idle up thru WOT in very precise load increments. We can do boosted applications and dry nitrous as well.

Our experiences-When one runs a car hard through the gears or on the dyno back to back it loses a significant amount of power. We ran a stk '05 GTO back to back and from the first run to the second we lost 22RWHP and 30RWTQ due to the AFR getting richer but primarily it was because of reduced timing. We put back in alot more timing into the intake air temp so it wasnt as aggressive as it was from the factory and deleted the COT and now it doesnt lose that kind of power between runs and or on hard street floggings. We didnt pick up much power on that bone stock car but it is consisntent now. Say for example on my 99FRC when I make back to back runs the car actually gains power. It doesnt get too hot but the oil is up to temp and it doesnt pull back any timing. The vettes stk IAT tables are very close to the GTOs and many will se this very thing happen.
Overall we see an average of about 13RWHP on C6s with intake and exh. It is not so much the peak power but you will feel under the curve, more throttle response and it will be sharper and rev crisper. 13RWHP does not sound like alot but I am being honest and it feels alot more than that. The more the vehicle is modded the more is to be gained. We make the car more consistent and average more power after she heats up (where she typically will lose power).
Overall the software is good and getting better as time goes on. We do mail orders from accross the globe and can handle your combination. If any of you would like references of our work please PM me or if you would like pricing please PM me. We have performance packages available for your car. We aim to be the best.
There is no handheld programmer that will be able to do what custom tuning can nor will it be as thorough.
I will try to keep you guys posted.
Thank you and God Bless
Jeremy Formato

 

Hi Jeremy, if I decided to go your route as far as tuning. Is there any discount for proceeding tunes as more mods add up? As of now I only am going to have an intake and exhaust, but later I will be going to headers and cam. I would wait, but would like to get rid of all the power manangemet crap. thanks

 

I will bring the C6 back now that you have the software!

 

yoyoyo- The upgrade tune is 50% or less. Your situation: I would wait till the headers are on. Are you going to do them and cam at the same time? We have a cam going in right now and we will let you know how it goes. 228/232 588/595 114LSA A nice docile well rounded cam that is very versatile. It should have great driveability and great midreange Tq as well as 40+ HP up top. If the tune was $375 the upgrade would be $175 for the cam (and or header) tune.

 

How much downtime will I have if I remove the computer and ship it to you? Any guesses?

 

I can tell you that Jeremy tuned my car a couple of weeks ago. The gain was 11 HP (Peak 352) and 11 ft/lbs (Peak 342). Nice but as Jeremy states the response and crispness is dramatically different. It feels like a completely different car. Also nice to have the TM & CAGS disabled (in actuality I understand the TM cannot be disabled but is set to respond at such a high point it is effectively disabled). Jeremy also tuned my car for the Kook's headers that I have had on order since May 26th-but thats another story. Hope to pick up another 20 HP & Torque with the headers.
My car is stock except for Halltech SSM and Corsa sport.
Can't speak to other tuners but I was very impressed with Jeremy's work.

 

can you elaborate on which tables are changed to control the opening of the throttle blade. I hear thats a real limiting factor on the 05 GTO's but not so much on C6's. Me and my tuner have really been experimenting with LS2 Edit lately but i dont remember seeing that particular table. Anyways, im beginning to think that the new HP tuners is the way to go. It will have most parameters ready to go right off the bat and most importantly a scanner/datalogger already in it. Its kinda hard to tune if you cant see what the ecu is doing (like tuning the VE tables, LTFT's, how much timing it will take before it has spark knock, etc.) what do you think?

 

Very informative for us newbees...thanks Jeremy

 

The downtime will vary, if you overnight it to us we can overnight it back and we can usually get it out sameday or the following day.
Datalogger will be here today.
The idle tables will be in the latest beta do you have the update? Mostly idle transition and a few more ..... I am in a real hurry here sorry going to be late for an appointment.
Thank you
Jeremy Formato

 

I had my C6 tuned by Jeremy a few weeks ago. 374/rwhp and 366/rwtq. This was with Kooks headers, C6 Stinger Intake and Corsa Sport. Dyno with only Corsa was 349/rwhp and 350/rwtq. Maybe a cam in the future. I was very impressed with jeremy's attention to detail.

 

Could you please explain "torque management" and what it is supposed to do? How can there be a limit of 281 lb/ft on a car that can output 400 lb/ft? Could you explain what is going on with torque management and why it is there? I definitely don't understand the 281.

Thanks,
Mike

 

 

Need some technical info on torque management before I can decide whether or not to remove it. If GM thinks the drivetrain will get torn up without it, I'm not sure it's worth the 2-3 tenths in the 1/4. I'd still like to know exactly what it does and where the 281 lb/ft comes from in the stock program. I think that will allow many of us to make more informed decisions about whether or not to remove it.

Mike

 

 

And I'd like to know why dyno tests of the C6 (like
jimman's latest experimental results) all show the
car producing advertized torque throughout the rpm
range. When is the torque being managed, if not on
dyno runs?

Is it only during shifts, as some have argued? Because
if that is true, I don't see any way removing it could
remove 3/10 from the 1/4 mile et. It takes roughly
30 rwhp over the entire 1/4 mile run to drop 3/10!

Or is it that merely that the ECU is (overly?) sensitive
to heat and that timing is pulled aggressively when
something gets hot?

Pat

 

"Torque management" is an unfortunate label for this behavior, but I suppose we're stuck with it. The real torque management is built into the A4 transmission. It commands reduced engine output during shifts to protect the drivetrain. The other "torque management" we're talking about here appears to be designed to prevent the engine from going into destructive detonation under certain operating conditions at low to moderate RPMs.

I'm afraid I'd have to write the equivalent to several chapters of an internal combustion textbook (which I've recently read) to properly explain this. But I'll try to over-simplify and give a lay explanation of the issue. All high compression engines are vulnerable to destructive detonation when sudden demand is asserted at low to moderate RPMs. In simple terms, the piston isn't moving rapidly enough to keep dynamic pressure down in the safe range when high demand is suddenly applied to a sharply tuned engine. This was masked in older carburetted engines by the accelerator pump which richened the mixture as demand was applied, and as reduced manifold vacuum caused spark to retard. In computer controlled engines, those mechanical systems aren't present, so the computer has to do the equivalent.

In very over-simplified terms, that's what the "torque management" people are talking about is doing. The problem is, it is being too aggressive for best performance, so we'd like to tune some of it out. In the old days, we'd adjust the pump shot on the carb and screw around with the distributor advance mechanisms. In today's cars, we have to futz with the computer instead. Note that this involves more than editing the MAF driven cell jumps in the fuel and spark tables. Those are for quasi-steady state conditions. This "TM" is transient behavior.

 

As usual you’re right on. A couple of others and I have been slammed for disputing the black Helicopter theory about GM wanting to save gear boxes for warranty purposes. Also for some concern of magic boxes that are suppose to eliminate the conspiracy but may just effect drag by shutting down ABS. As I mentioned my customers are the people whom developed the algorithms for this have told me that Electronic control for the A4’s torque converter is TM. They control engine parameters for emissions and timing concerns for dramatic engine load conditions so as not to blow holes in pistons.

 

Pretty impressive

You happy with that?

 

Shopdog, thanks for posting. That helps me understand the reason we need TM, but it doesn't really explain what the parameters are and what it is really doing to performance. Is TM richening the fuel mixture, retarding timing, or both? How much is timing retarded (in general) after a shift (on the MN6) and how long after the shift does that timing stay retarded? Also, is TM stepping in only for a short time (a second or less) after a shift or does it also have effects on throttle response and other aspects while already in gear? Answers to these questions are key to me. If TM is only holding back a little power for say a half second after each shift and maybe also when you suddenly stomp down on the gas, I may opt to live with it as a little extra drivetrain/engine protection isn't a bad thing.

My C6 is already a half second faster than my C5 and that seems about right for 50 HP. As far as I know, the C5 didn't have TM but the C6 does. Doesn't follow then that removing TM would make the car .3 seconds faster to make it .8 seconds faster than my C5. I can see it "feeling better" or having better throttle response, but gaining .3 seconds in the 1/4 mile if it only affects performance for a fraction of a second after each shift? I don't know.

I think there are still some things we don't quite understand about TM with respect to exactly what it is doing to performance and when. Those are the questions I want answered.

Mike

 

Sorry I havent been able to get back to you guys been real busy.
OK shopdog I agree for the most part.
TM use to be only in A4 cars but I am a firm believer that the M6 C6 has it. Once it is gone their is a night and day difference. TM does not enrichen the mix it takes away throttle position and retards timing.
The first instance I had seen about 2.5 years ago was in an A4 car where we were making a WOT blast tuning it and she would go from 100% throllte to 72% in the mid RPM range where the car make peak TQ and then go back to 100% at the higher end around 6K where tq would taper off on my EFI LIVE datalogger. THAT IS WHAT TM IS AND DOES. When you are putting the pedal to what would be 30% throttle on a cable driven car I believe it is not the same as 30% on a fly by wire car with TM it might be 26% until it is deleted. I dont know the way the algorithm works for estimated engine output in the PCM but if you try to rev quickly and be aggressive I believe your output is limited and those that have had it done will testify. The engine can and will take alot more average timing and throttle tip in. BTW the area where the TM per gear is located goes up to 3000RPM but I feel that 3000 on out is the limiter. I have logged engine output on a dyno and seen that the "guesstimated" engine output is not very accurate. I am out of time going to be late for another appointment. I will follow more on this soon we can talk about all sorts of theories and so on .....
Jeremy