the stock airbox setup...
Race Director
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 10,089
Likes: 14
Originally Posted by RedHotBolt
<snip well deserved rant>.
Sorry for the rant but I would really like to get my C6 to 400/400 at the rear wheels and I assumed it could be done with a few bolt on's like exhaust filter assembly and tuning.
I can't spend $400.00 for a filter that may be just snake oil. Mod money is burning a hole in my pocket but I don't like throwing money away! Color me dased and confused.
Jerry
Sorry for the rant but I would really like to get my C6 to 400/400 at the rear wheels and I assumed it could be done with a few bolt on's like exhaust filter assembly and tuning.
I can't spend $400.00 for a filter that may be just snake oil. Mod money is burning a hole in my pocket but I don't like throwing money away! Color me dased and confused. Jerry
To get to that level NA, you're going to need a built engine with a fairly strong cam, and maybe a stroker crank to find the torque at an RPM you can actually use. Dicking around with air cleaners and mufflers on a stock internals engine isn't going to get it done.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Nov 1999
Posts: 7,695
Likes: 51
From: Imperial Beach CA
Originally Posted by jesse12804
tell us how you really feel!! 
Realistically,if you want 400/400,go w/ set of kooks headers,hi-flows,and an exhaust.Then you'll get 30-40-50 hp to the wheels.I had to learn the hardway too,that all those claims were more HOT AIR than anything else!
Realistically,if you want 400/400,go w/ set of kooks headers,hi-flows,and an exhaust.Then you'll get 30-40-50 hp to the wheels.I had to learn the hardway too,that all those claims were more HOT AIR than anything else!
anything else and you may have warranty issues.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,560
Likes: 4
From: Tobacco Road NC
Originally Posted by andreas g.
take the cover with the filter in hand and place a strip of masking tape along the outside, the height of the filter. Just get close to flush. It's not that important. Using a small hand held or power jig saw cut along the tape sand the edges and you're done. you can even use a hack saw if you don't have anything else. As for the foam rubber I used 2-way tape to secure the foam on the secondary cover. You'll probably remove a small round piece of rubber and put it in its place. If I had a scanner for my computer I would have been able to post pics of the job.Sorry.
andreas g.
andreas g.
Safety Car
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 3,867
Likes: 307
From: Wantagh,L.I. New York
I have a stock air cleaner on my C6, while my friend installed a Vortex cold air setup. I measured the incoming air temperature on both vehicles with my Autoxray 4000 scanner. At an ambient temperature of 63 degrees F the Vortex incoming air measured 75 degrees F. My stock unit measured 78 degrees F, all over the same measured course. Does 3 degrees make that much difference? I don't know. The temperature difference was much greater at idle. I'm sure this was caused by my car sucking in engine heat, while the Vortex box shielded the heat. Does it make a difference at idle? Seems hard to justify $500 to gain a 3 degree reduction. I'm sure the Vortex had greater air flow, which could be beneficial, but can you get that with different filters added to the stock box? Any opinions would be appreciated.
Team Owner
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 38,314
Likes: 35
Originally Posted by shopdog
I feel your frustration, Jerry. There is an inordinate amount of hype about aftermarket air cleaners on this site. Some other things too. But you really should do a reality check on the notion you can get to 400 RWHP/400 RWTQ with external bolt-ons, unless the bolt-on is a supercharger or a nitrous kit.
To get to that level NA, you're going to need a built engine with a fairly strong cam, and maybe a stroker crank to find the torque at an RPM you can actually use. Dicking around with air cleaners and mufflers on a stock internals engine isn't going to get it done.
To get to that level NA, you're going to need a built engine with a fairly strong cam, and maybe a stroker crank to find the torque at an RPM you can actually use. Dicking around with air cleaners and mufflers on a stock internals engine isn't going to get it done.
100%. You are probably going to have to get more aggressive if you want to see 400/400 than just the usual bolt ons.
Drifting
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,651
Likes: 125
From: laguna niguel ca
Why I modded the air box
I did it just to clean up the intake and get some good filters. I'm not trying to make any big HP. I've done that with; kooks, magnaflows, comp cam 224/228 581/588 tunning from z industries , and the infamous 160 stat. Next is a fast intake. later!
Race Director
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 10,089
Likes: 14
Originally Posted by c6vette
I have a stock air cleaner on my C6, while my friend installed a Vortex cold air setup. I measured the incoming air temperature on both vehicles with my Autoxray 4000 scanner. At an ambient temperature of 63 degrees F the Vortex incoming air measured 75 degrees F. My stock unit measured 78 degrees F, all over the same measured course. Does 3 degrees make that much difference? I don't know. The temperature difference was much greater at idle. I'm sure this was caused by my car sucking in engine heat, while the Vortex box shielded the heat. Does it make a difference at idle? Seems hard to justify $500 to gain a 3 degree reduction. I'm sure the Vortex had greater air flow, which could be beneficial, but can you get that with different filters added to the stock box? Any opinions would be appreciated.
Team Owner
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 27,420
Likes: 64
From: San Clemente CA
That's interesting. It look's like a lot of time and effort are being spent unnecessarly. How about the temperture of the incoming air. Colder is better.
Last edited by VET4LES; Oct 17, 2005 at 09:16 PM.
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Race Director
Joined: Oct 2004
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Originally Posted by VET4LES
That's interesting. It look's like a lot of time and effort are being spent unnecessarly. How about the temperture of the incoming air. Colder is better thought?
According to the gas laws, density is a function of temperature, expressed in degrees Rankine or Kelvin depending on whether you prefer Imperial or Metric measurements. In imperial units, gas density is proportional to 459.67/(459.67+F) where F is the temperature in degrees Farenheit.
When the A/F ratio is maintained at the correct value, power is directly proportional to amount of oxygen being injested by the engine. So colder air contains more oxygen per cubic foot, and hence allows the engine to inject more fuel and make more power.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Nov 1999
Posts: 7,695
Likes: 51
From: Imperial Beach CA
Originally Posted by shopdog
Colder is better. Air density, and hence oxygen content, increases with decreasing temperature.
According to the gas laws, density is a function of temperature, expressed in degrees Rankine or Kelvin depending on whether you prefer Imperial or Metric measurements. In imperial units, gas density is proportional to 459.67/(459.67+F) where F is the temperature in degrees Farenheit.
When the A/F ratio is maintained at the correct value, power is directly proportional to amount of oxygen being injested by the engine. So colder air contains more oxygen per cubic foot, and hence allows the engine to inject more fuel and make more power.
According to the gas laws, density is a function of temperature, expressed in degrees Rankine or Kelvin depending on whether you prefer Imperial or Metric measurements. In imperial units, gas density is proportional to 459.67/(459.67+F) where F is the temperature in degrees Farenheit.
When the A/F ratio is maintained at the correct value, power is directly proportional to amount of oxygen being injested by the engine. So colder air contains more oxygen per cubic foot, and hence allows the engine to inject more fuel and make more power.
Cold air not cold engine makes the difference and still believe it even though was just called stupid for that position a couple of weeks ago on the forum. I measured the ambient vs. intake air at speed with a digital thermometer and no difference, idle different story. That’s what 400 plus hours in the wind tunnel get you.http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...post1552325585
Last edited by jimman; Oct 17, 2005 at 11:48 PM.
Race Director
Joined: Oct 2004
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Originally Posted by jimman
Cold air not cold engine makes the difference and still believe it even though was just called stupid for that position a couple of weeks ago on the forum. I measured the ambient vs. intake air at speed with a digital thermometer and no difference, idle different story. That’s what 400 plus hours in the wind tunnel get you.Heat is what makes an engine work. We don't want to waste any of it by rejecting too much of it to the coolant. Heat flow is driven by temperature differential, just as current is driven by voltage differences. By running the coolant at too low a temperature, we increase heat flow from the combustion chamber to the radiator. It doesn't do us any good in the radiator. We want to keep as much of it as possible in the combustion chamber, where it can heat gas and cause it to do work against the piston.
Pro
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 581
Likes: 0
From: Georgetown Texas
Originally Posted by shopdog
I feel your frustration, Jerry. There is an inordinate amount of hype about aftermarket air cleaners on this site. Some other things too. But you really should do a reality check on the notion you can get to 400 RWHP/400 RWTQ with external bolt-ons, unless the bolt-on is a supercharger or a nitrous kit.
To get to that level NA, you're going to need a built engine with a fairly strong cam, and maybe a stroker crank to find the torque at an RPM you can actually use. Dicking around with air cleaners and mufflers on a stock internals engine isn't going to get it done.
To get to that level NA, you're going to need a built engine with a fairly strong cam, and maybe a stroker crank to find the torque at an RPM you can actually use. Dicking around with air cleaners and mufflers on a stock internals engine isn't going to get it done.
Jerry
Team Owner
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 27,254
Likes: 136
From: Short Hills, NJ
Originally Posted by RedHotBolt
I just assumed (and I was wrong) that since my Ford Lightning was supposed to have 380 hp at the crank stock that the Vette with 400 stock would be easier to make 400 at the rear wheels (I was wrong again). With only a chip (25 to 30 h/p) and a pulley change to make 12 lbs. of boost instead of 8 most eveyone with a Lightning gets over 400 h/p. I was making 435/505 at the rear wheels with those mods and long tubes and a ported blower. Ford must have under rated the stock h/p and left way more in the computer than GM did on the Vette.
As for using the factory stock (or slightly modified stock) C6 air box, it is a good system and the car can be made to run real strong without going to an aftermarket one that may or may not improve upon it.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 7,027
Likes: 6
From: Shiloh Ohio
Originally Posted by c6vette
I have a stock air cleaner on my C6, while my friend installed a Vortex cold air setup. I measured the incoming air temperature on both vehicles with my Autoxray 4000 scanner. At an ambient temperature of 63 degrees F the Vortex incoming air measured 75 degrees F. My stock unit measured 78 degrees F, all over the same measured course. Does 3 degrees make that much difference? I don't know. The temperature difference was much greater at idle. I'm sure this was caused by my car sucking in engine heat, while the Vortex box shielded the heat. Does it make a difference at idle? Seems hard to justify $500 to gain a 3 degree reduction. I'm sure the Vortex had greater air flow, which could be beneficial, but can you get that with different filters added to the stock box? Any opinions would be appreciated.
Like in your example the car would get 63 degree air instead of 78 if it was getting air directly from outside the hood. This would give you .05 improvement in a qtr mile ET. Not too bad.
Race Director
Joined: Oct 2004
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Originally Posted by RedHotBolt
I just assumed (and I was wrong) that since my Ford Lightning was supposed to have 380 hp at the crank stock that the Vette with 400 stock would be easier to make 400 at the rear wheels (I was wrong again). With only a chip (25 to 30 h/p) and a pulley change to make 12 lbs. of boost instead of 8 most eveyone with a Lightning gets over 400 h/p. I was making 435/505 at the rear wheels with those mods and long tubes and a ported blower. Ford must have under rated the stock h/p and left way more in the computer than GM did on the Vette. I really love the Vette and at the track (road course) it is way more fun than the Lightning but the Lightning is a whole lotta bang for the buck and I thought the Vette with 400 h/p and only 3200 lbs. would feels way faster than the 5000 lb. truck but it does not!
Jerry
Jerry
Since the air cleaner isn't the bottleneck to flow in the C6, changing it won't do a whole lot of good. You have to look at the real bottlenecks, which are the cam lift and duration, head porting, the actual intake manifold, etc to get significantly more air into the engine, and then you're still going to hit the wall when you reach 344 CFM, because the engine can't pump more atmospheric pressure air through it than that without raising the redline RPM.
Blower engines don't have that limitation. You can keep turning them up, pushing more air into the engine, until the power becomes so much the engine explodes. The only real limits to power with a boosted engine are fuel quality and ultimate mechanical strength.
Pro
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 581
Likes: 0
From: Georgetown Texas
Originally Posted by shopdog
It is easy to make more power from an engine with a blower, just up the boost. You don't have that option with a normally aspirated engine. There is no boost to turn up.
Since the air cleaner isn't the bottleneck to flow in the C6, changing it won't do a whole lot of good. You have to look at the real bottlenecks, which are the cam lift and duration, head porting, the actual intake manifold, etc to get significantly more air into the engine, and then you're still going to hit the wall when you reach 344 CFM, because the engine can't pump more atmospheric pressure air through it than that without raising the redline RPM.
Blower engines don't have that limitation. You can keep turning them up, pushing more air into the engine, until the power becomes so much the engine explodes. The only real limits to power with a boosted engine are fuel quality and ultimate mechanical strength.
Since the air cleaner isn't the bottleneck to flow in the C6, changing it won't do a whole lot of good. You have to look at the real bottlenecks, which are the cam lift and duration, head porting, the actual intake manifold, etc to get significantly more air into the engine, and then you're still going to hit the wall when you reach 344 CFM, because the engine can't pump more atmospheric pressure air through it than that without raising the redline RPM.
Blower engines don't have that limitation. You can keep turning them up, pushing more air into the engine, until the power becomes so much the engine explodes. The only real limits to power with a boosted engine are fuel quality and ultimate mechanical strength.
J
Race Director
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 12,375
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From: Florida
Originally Posted by c6vette
I have a stock air cleaner on my C6, while my friend installed a Vortex cold air setup. I measured the incoming air temperature on both vehicles with my Autoxray 4000 scanner.
I will assume that did not happen. To accurately compare the air temps of the two systems, you have to look at the IATs, either running, or on a dyno. No need for the scanner...the ECM will dtatlog them as a matter of course, and you can download them with a Hypertech or similar tool.
Given the heat underneath the hood, and the EXTREME sensitivity of the LS2 ECU to high temps (it removes timing like crazy due to the high compression ratio) it is safe to assume that a CAI will yield much better results than the stock intake, especially in hot weather. Then again, you already have 400 hp.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Nov 1999
Posts: 7,695
Likes: 51
From: Imperial Beach CA
Originally Posted by TTRotary
How did you measure intake air temps at the throttle body with a hand held scanner, while the car was moving?
I will assume that did not happen. To accurately compare the air temps of the two systems, you have to look at the IATs, either running, or on a dyno. No need for the scanner...the ECM will dtatlog them as a matter of course, and you can download them with a Hypertech or similar tool.
Given the heat underneath the hood, and the EXTREME sensitivity of the LS2 ECU to high temps (it removes timing like crazy due to the high compression ratio) it is safe to assume that a CAI will yield much better results than the stock intake, especially in hot weather. Then again, you already have 400 hp.
I will assume that did not happen. To accurately compare the air temps of the two systems, you have to look at the IATs, either running, or on a dyno. No need for the scanner...the ECM will dtatlog them as a matter of course, and you can download them with a Hypertech or similar tool.
Given the heat underneath the hood, and the EXTREME sensitivity of the LS2 ECU to high temps (it removes timing like crazy due to the high compression ratio) it is safe to assume that a CAI will yield much better results than the stock intake, especially in hot weather. Then again, you already have 400 hp.