Start out slow? I don't know about that. When someone first decides to go mod their car you think they mean performance mods. I never understand that even if there are a ton of guys running all kinds of exhausts and air cleaners and they show actual proof of having no change in power the mass public still continues to ask what exhaust and air cleaner assembly they should get for their first mod.

The most common question is WHAT INTAKE SHOULD I GET?

I changed the stocker out so I don't have to get replacement filters. I still have the stock exhaust too and it is very loud...high flow cats, headers, cam...ect.

With exhausts being 1k plus install and the air cleaner is 350-400 for a total that is MORE than most shops charge for gears and a hardened output shaft Installed. The gears are a day and night difference.

When you see head and cam cars running high 10's low 11's they are always running 3.90's so why the hell would you dump 1500-1700 on two mods that don't make a power difference. OK, you noise guys that want the loud exhaust...keep reading.

A good mod order:

Gears first
Cam/UD pulley
heads
headers
FAST 90
tires
clutch/aluminum flywheel
rocker arms even just 1.7's
air cleaner
electric water pump
exhaust

Exhaust is last since the headers and cam may have already put you over the noise limit of your sanity and since a modded car may benefit from the exhaust. Stock cars show no performance increase. The electric water pump shows a bigger gain and costs half as much.

Stop adding power mods when you can't get it to the ground.

The wrong order...saying 'I have 600 rwhp and the wheels will spin if I get gears.'

Most guys will stop at the gears and cam and will be faster for only having spent 3k total --paying a shop to do the work. If you belittle the gains in performance from gears, you never went in a geared vette

A cam and gear car will out perform: Aircleaner, exhaust, headers, and tune.

Please post opinions.

 

I agree on the exhaust. If I had heard a car with headers and stock exhaust before I did my mod I probably would not have purchased an exhaust.

 

I'm waiting to the gas mileage guy to show up to tell him I still get 26mpg on my C5 with 4.10's.

I'll be back later with my fire entry suit able to withstand a flame thrower at 2800 degrees fired at me from some guy with 744 rwhp that can run a 12.1 -1/4 with street tires.

 

I would move the headers up to being directly after the gears. By themselves they give real seat of the pants as a stand alone installation. Plus they will improve the yeild from the H/C whereas the H/C will be hindered somewhat by the lack of headers.

 

I didn't specifically say it but I was going by the effectiveness of the bang for the buck deal. I don't beleive the cam gains for any cam being hurt significally enough by the lack of exhaust gas reversion and LG pretty much showed that to be false with the 232/240 cams that yeild awesome power as a stand alone mod.

The cams that are getting near 470-480 rwhp are only 228/232 and 224/230 as mine is, work fine without heads or headers. You will see 35-40 rwhp from the cam as the only mod done making it the king of cost effective mods. Yes, while N20 is more power for the buck it isnt there unless you are WOT and then you only get a few shots per 40 dollar tank eventually making it the worst mod per dollar.

Headers untuned are 20-25 and 25-30 tuned with cats...I am staying legal.

headers are a good deal but if you start talking about inter-efectiveness of mods we will be here all day which is fine with my retired butt.

My point: That 3k combo can't be beat by any two other mods listed above. The gears/cam will be all the power that most people find they can get to the ground effectively and that combo costs about the same as the headers/gears combo that would loose miserably to it. Be awae also that most mods like heads and cam are labor intensive. A cam install with springs cost me 660 bucks since I did the install myself and got the cam and springs cheap but new. That was half what I paid for Kooks headers -1350 shipped.

 

very good posts SpinMonster

Lusky

 

Most people wont be doing the cam install in their garage. They will be paying for the instillation. The car does have headroom exhaust wise to get real power with a cam but that doesnt change the fact that some of the gain is lost through the stock exhaust. Also the gain is dependent on how much cam. There are some that will use a conservitave grind. Then there is the thought that you should consider the cost of the UD pulley along with the cam since it would be foolish not get the "so to speak" free labor on the installation. A lot of people are also going to do the H/C together. Lots of saved labor there too. The main problem with the whole idea of a "proper" order is that not everyone is going the same place or have the same goals. Doing the headers beforehand gives you more wiggle room to change tacks in your performance goals but wont hurt you with your further mods.

 

Without question gears will give the most acceleration increase for the least money .. with the exception of nitrous oxide.

That said .. you don't need as high of gear ratio if you add more power .. but more power costs money, and if you're planning on running stock tires the gear change alone will cause you traction problems .. let alone more power.

 

This is where I disagree with most people

The addition of power doesn't negate other advantages that gears give you. The sillier the cam size the MORE you need gears to make up for the low end loss the cam causes. Too many people think that cars are built from the front to back and that is wrong. You gear for the trap speed you want then add power untill you cant hook. ON the track with et-streets, hoosiers, or drag radials that may not apply. Handicapping a car by not getting gears is wrong. You wen the wrong direction. Higher numberical gears spin slower than lower gears. This is where the TQ comes from. While it is true that the car can break loose easier, you regain traction faster by the slower spinning of the tires. If you break loose with 3.42's you are spinning faster. Starting in second is the same thinking. I had this issue with my dart. At 5.xx I could get the thing to hook but at 6.13's in the rear it does a wheelie but I have to shift in the first 15 feet.

The cam issue: LG has shown that their G5x3 gives you over 400 to the wheels with the stock manifolds and exhaust so saying there is a limit to the size cam you can use without going to headers is just plain wrong. You will gain 40rwhp no matter what...yes its more with heads and headers.

The FAST manifold makes a bigger difference if you have other mods on the car.

My point is simply there are myths flying around such as there being a limit to the size cam you can use without headers and heads...its . You gain more yes but it is not a bad thing to get a 228/232 cam on a 114 for this car as you first mod. Saying it doesnt work is silly if you think gaining 40rwhp is not going to happen. That same cam got over 500 to the wheels at A&A.

Once again...gear the car first then start adding the mods you want until the power isnt getting to the ground and your car will be faster than if you did all the mods for 500rwhp and handicap the car by not getting gears.

Some experience: look at the mods in both my C5 and C6. My cousin's 2004 Z06 with nothing done to the motor beats both of my cars every time with drag radials, suspension, and 4.10's. I just spin out trying to catch him...hiway is a different story.

 

I agree with most of your list, but the cam is always last for me for a few reasons. I'm not a fan of the valvetrain noise that goes with most decent cams, as well as the idle quality issues and valve spring longevity questions. When I run an aftermarket cam, I'm compelled to keep my eye on it and the springs.

I'm definitely not a member of the "best bang for the buck" club. My favorite mod after gears would have to be good heads, I'm planning my swap for this winter, probably AFRs or the new ETPs. They are all upside, no downside, and the gains are substantial. I also do all my own install work so labor's not a factor. I'll probably put in a set of rockers at the same time to get a little more lift.

Gears are definitely a great mod for the standard manual car. I ran a 4.10 in my C5 and it was awesome. With the C6 Z51, it's a harder call. I'd probably want a 3.77 to get me close to the feel of the 4.10 in the C5, but that's a big project for a pretty little gain. That said, I may do it anyway if I get the motor project finished and I have the time.

Since you don't like exhaust, I guess you're not a fan of aftermarket wheels or brakes either? I like them too.

 

I bough wheels for bigger tires.... Brakes, I have the Z51 and there are no stopping issues...the tires are the limit of my braking.

Getting to the mod order, I did my C6 differently for this go around. I went heads, 1.8's, headers, and the valvetrain noise was just as bad as the cam deal. I think its the springs. The headers are thin metal and may be the source. I gave in and got the cam...day and night. Dual valve springs are mandatory and I gree about it being questinable when and where you break down. If you bitch about such things then the gears are a definite first as it doesn't do anything to reliablity...it probably increases it.

All I had to do to get the idle right was raise it to 850.

 

100% but they cost a lot.

It wasn'tthat long ago that people were saying that heads without a cam is useless for gains....That is BS. I did the heads and raised the compression in one isolated mod and the pull was more than headers

Keep in mind that the basis and motivation in this post was that people drop 1800 on an exhaust and aircleaner expecting performance and all they get is a credit card bill and noise...I'll keep saying that through the thread as people bash me for saying this and that arent good mods.

They are all good just not exhaust and air cleaners for performance.

 

Well..I think the proper way of looking at things is,....make sure you have a PLAN OF ATTACK. How much power do you wanna make is the real question?...

Next question,...How much is this gonna cost me? Then you weigh it out.

If your going twin turbo,...you obviously don't need to buy headers...cold air kit,....etc etc. If your going with BIG power,...you don't really need gears,..unless your flatout drag racing...

If your going bitrous, go ahead and buy some long tube headers, as in my "opinion" and what I have seen on the dyno,..they are well worth it. Catback, could be last. I strongly belive in VARARAM and what they claim, as I have installed it on MY FRC and seen 3 mph in the 1/4 mile alone. I'm a beliver.

Traction,...is really the NUMBER one thing you should do. Get yourself some good sticky drag radials for the track. If your a high speed lover/drag/street racer, then I would HIGHLY recommend some KUMHO's. Great road tire, with great low speed traction....

Right after that,..I would strongly recommend the DTE DIFF STRUT BRACE. It kinda sucks to install but, it is well worth it,..and it's only $3 bills. Great insurance as well.

If you get the right CAM,..you don't really need a set of heads but,..mind you, this is gonna be a rather radical setup. My cam is as big as you can get, without haveing to change the gears. Car has a dramatic idle but, always idles.

If you have the money, buy yourself some heads with the cam.


Again everyone,..what do your really want to do? How much do you want to spend.

If you have the money, don't be stupid, and do it, in stages. You might as well just DO IT.

There is soo many different setups.

I went the cam only...full valve train. Heavy duty springs. LG long tubes, borla bullets...and a pretty strong shot of nitrous. Alot of other stuff as well(ported tb, ram air, etc et) But I won't keep this setup forever. ... ... ... ..twin turbo's soon.


It's all about money.

 

Probably the most intelligent answer and approach here...have a plan.

I see your answeris very geared toward drag racing which I'm not doing with this car so the drag radial thing isn't happening for me.

If you are planning on 600rwhp for the street then you already have a huge problem....If you are using street tires then you still have a car that is no faster than a regeared C5 Z06. Its an exaggeration of course but light to light may not be as far fetched as you think.

I was shocked when all these big tuners ran these turbo, S/C cars and all of them were still in the high 11's and low 12's. A stock Z06 with suspension, gears, and drag raidlas gets into the 11's

 

I happen to have a mod order of my own thats pretty darn close.

Gear
Headers, and CAI
Cam/underdrive
Heads/New Rockers
...

The low-hanging fruit first, and thats gears for sure. New Diff in Feb if I can swing the time. The others with the exception of Heads could be swaped around for all I care. Heads would be last for me.

I did do a baseline and tune to start with, just to see where it started. I will install magnaflow rear exhaust (could be anytime), and might put in an x-pipe when the headers are installed. Im not planning to that level right now, just the diff first.

 

Thats because you a true sensible southern man

 

Actually, i'm geared more for high speed. Thats why i'm sticking to 3.42's. Drag radials are a must for track duty, which we do drag race, as well as autocross,..etc etc. All ends must be covered. If you don't want to have a drag radial,...run KUMHO's. Which is my NEXT prupose.

I can't drive with drag radials everyday,...i'd kill myself.

 

I think my response may be biased because I do all my own work. The labor these days is killing folks and takes a lot away from mods like a cam install.

Having said that I almost agree wholly with your post. Gears are, and always have been the best mod one can do on a car. There are a ton of reasons the manufacturer puts the gears they do in the car, and I may be going out on a limb, but I doubt many of them have to do with the kind of performance we are looking for.

I saved gears for last because I simply didn't know where I needed to be. Just from experience, I know I needed a car that had around 450rwhp to get the numbers I wanted in the 1/4. Also, when I made my cam choice I needed to see where it was when I trapped to help determine the gear I needed. I have to shift into 4th too late so I know the 3.90s will work for me. But, for the average Joe, I always tell them to swap gears first because that is the one mod that will really kick you in the ****.

The only personal difference I had with the list was headers. This car is extremely easy to install them on and there is absolutely no sound more sweet then a small block chevy camming off in some longtubes. Again, the cost/benefit thing is spot on in your post, but I love the sound of longtubes. If you told me the stock manifolds made 20 more rwhp, I might still go with longtubes because I like the sound.

So, in my case, I went...
Home made axle-back $300
Cam, longtubes, tune
Heads
Gears/diff

If I were to suggest a mod list to somebody who did not really know what they were shooting for it would be...
Gears
Cam
Longtubes
Heads/intake
well north of 400 rwhp and sucking air through the stock paper air filter

 

wow, this post is great, and puts away a lot of my disbeliefs that the performance shop has been jamming down my throat. I was thinking of just doing a small cam upgrade, or headers without a catback, and was told that at a minimum that I had to change my converter to at least a 2800 stall. Now I had a 2600 stall on my last vette, plus 3.42 gears, and it was great on the street, but sucked on the launch, and really sucked going to the mountains like I like to do, cuase the car had to be rev happy since the stall allowed too much slip trying to go up the mountians.!

It didn't really suck on the launch, just it was hard to get the power down without drag radials, then with drag tires I split my diff case in half! Also the 3.42's in my A4 made the car run rather high to me on the rpms, and I didn't like that for all my driving. I put 20,000 miles a year on my cars!

I just want to get a solid 400whp and torque out of the car. It is now at 350whp, and 355wtq. I have an intake, flowmasters catback coming soon, and was thinking of LG longtubes and tuning, but have always toyed with a cam!

Can I just cam it, and tune it, and forget the longtubes, and catback? Hell the catback and headers are gonna cost $2200.00 I am sure a cam and valvetrain plus tuning will cost the same and give me more power if I am assuming correctly! Can I do that, or do I need a heavier stall or re-gear?

 

[QUOTE=
OK, you noise guys that want the loud exhaust...keep reading.

A good mod order:

Gears first
Cam/UD pulley
heads
headers
FAST 90
tires
clutch/aluminum flywheel
rocker arms even just 1.7's
air cleaner
electric water pump
exhaust

Stop adding power mods when you can't get it to the ground.

Please post opinions.[/QUOTE]

I wanted the loud exhaust so I kept reading.

I am not sure about the whole list because I just don't know enough to be sure. I am pretty sure about gears first, though. When I was young and ignorant I bought a 385HP '71 440 6bbl Roadrunner over a 390HP '69 427 3-Duece Vette. Settle down, now. I'm on my 8th Chevy and my 2nd straight Vette! I did this because the 4,000 pound RR out-accelerated the 3,600 pound Vette by a wide margin. The Vette had a mid-3's gear. The RR had 4.10's. They were both in very good condition and bone stock, including the tires. I won nearly every "sporting event" I entered with the RR. I was a decent driver but no more.

I had great experience with a cam in another car but it had 3.90's, too. Gears and cams have always done it for me. To be fair, both cars had headers but they had gears (and the cam) first.

Like some others who have responded, I didn't follow the correct order this time. I am not really chasing acceleration, yet. I have plenty of it, anyway. I did headers and cat backs first because I wanted the sound and I paid what it took to get it. I did the Crane Gold Race 1.8' "Quick Lift" Rockers next, based largely on a certain SpinMonster's advice, because I wanted more mid-range power without too much fuss. I was hinting at acceleration, though. Boy did it work! Now my tires spin whenever I hit 3,500 RPMS at full power in 1st or 2nd and usually in 3rd, too. Thanks, SpinMonster!

If I wanted more power, I'd add a mild cam for 30HP, or something a little hotter for 45HP. I am studying cams, now, because I want to add the mildest cam that I can get to cause some light chop, strictly for the sound. This my car, so I'll pursue my own twisted goals. While I'm in there, I'll have the underdrive pully set-up added. That's a 9HP cinch. After the cam, I'll do the FAST because it's an easy 20HP by then and it fits the order. I'll also add a Honker because I already have it. Finally, I'll do the Diablo Predator, once SpinMonster takes the risk of trying it first! Yeah, I'm a little conservative. I like to do one thing at a time to really experience it and to enjoy each bite. If I go too far, I'll take the last piece back off.

If I wanted more aceleration, I'd get the 4.10's, period. IMHO, with the 4.10's this car would pick up 3-4 tenths in the 1/4 and 1 or better in the 0-60, where most of us can use it. Bigger, better tires would help, too.

However, as I said, acceleration isn't my highest priority, now. I am "tuning" my cars "personality."

Go gears!