Some reflections on dbs
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From: Oceanside CA
Some reflections on dbs
I have some questions on this dbs phenomenon. It seems that many, many people, and apparently GM as well, have this “the devil made it do it” take on dbs.
In my opinion, this should not be “black magic” to highly qualified electronics technicians, especially those at GM.
1. The battery is either dead or not. Testing a suspected dead (or low) battery is not rocket science. It either will hold a minimum voltage (usually 9.6 volts or higher) with a 15 second load of half the batteries cold cranking rating or it will not. If it will not, the battery should be charged, then tested again. If it will still not hold approximately 9.6 volts after the proper load – THE BATTERY IS BAD and should be replaced. Nothing real mysterious here!
2. If the battery is good, then the problem is some kind of draw (current/amperage) from the vehicles electric system. This can be easy to find with a ammeter if the draw is constant but a constant draw wouldn’t be consistent with the dbs descriptions we hear (it happens intermittently), thus something must be drawing amperage from the battery, at unpredictable times, rendering it incapable of starting the car.
If this is the case GM, among others must have equipment that will track current draw over time. One would get a graph showing the amount of current draw and the time when it occurs. Knowing this should get you in the ballpark. Now the different circuits must be isolated during the test to find which, when disconnected, is causing the draw. In other words, when a specific circuit is disconnected, the dbs does not occur! Further, GM must also have sophisticated test equipment that can track all circuits at once - over time. When the offending circuit(s) is/are found, the problem should be able to be chased down to specific components.
I know it’s probably not as simple as I make it sound, and that with all the electronics on the C6 (with all its iterations), there are probably zillions of potential difficulties. None-the-less, I can’t see how a GM team, looking at this problem, can’t find it. They have, after all, had a couple years!
I personally think that GM is probably getting so much BS and so many different descriptions of how and when it occurs, from so many sources, that they are not sure of how and under what exact circumstances it occurs. Also, the actual occurrences of dbs, compared to number of C6 starts, is no doubt, minuscule. Otherwise they would have it fixed. Also, remember they probably have to be legally careful with announcing any cures.
I worked for FoMoCo in the late ‘70s and know that no one would like to get this type of thing off their back more than the manufacturer!
What am I missing? Or, could it be that GM is too busy chasing tops?
In my opinion, this should not be “black magic” to highly qualified electronics technicians, especially those at GM.
1. The battery is either dead or not. Testing a suspected dead (or low) battery is not rocket science. It either will hold a minimum voltage (usually 9.6 volts or higher) with a 15 second load of half the batteries cold cranking rating or it will not. If it will not, the battery should be charged, then tested again. If it will still not hold approximately 9.6 volts after the proper load – THE BATTERY IS BAD and should be replaced. Nothing real mysterious here!
2. If the battery is good, then the problem is some kind of draw (current/amperage) from the vehicles electric system. This can be easy to find with a ammeter if the draw is constant but a constant draw wouldn’t be consistent with the dbs descriptions we hear (it happens intermittently), thus something must be drawing amperage from the battery, at unpredictable times, rendering it incapable of starting the car.
If this is the case GM, among others must have equipment that will track current draw over time. One would get a graph showing the amount of current draw and the time when it occurs. Knowing this should get you in the ballpark. Now the different circuits must be isolated during the test to find which, when disconnected, is causing the draw. In other words, when a specific circuit is disconnected, the dbs does not occur! Further, GM must also have sophisticated test equipment that can track all circuits at once - over time. When the offending circuit(s) is/are found, the problem should be able to be chased down to specific components.
I know it’s probably not as simple as I make it sound, and that with all the electronics on the C6 (with all its iterations), there are probably zillions of potential difficulties. None-the-less, I can’t see how a GM team, looking at this problem, can’t find it. They have, after all, had a couple years!
I personally think that GM is probably getting so much BS and so many different descriptions of how and when it occurs, from so many sources, that they are not sure of how and under what exact circumstances it occurs. Also, the actual occurrences of dbs, compared to number of C6 starts, is no doubt, minuscule. Otherwise they would have it fixed. Also, remember they probably have to be legally careful with announcing any cures.
I worked for FoMoCo in the late ‘70s and know that no one would like to get this type of thing off their back more than the manufacturer!
What am I missing? Or, could it be that GM is too busy chasing tops?
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What if it was the "enviorment" where the car was parked?
What if your car had 3 episodes of DBS and mine had none?
Then I started parking my car where you park yours and you start parking yours where I park mine and all of a sudden I get DBS, and now you don't?
DBS seems to be caused by something waking the car up. What if that something was in your garage and not mine? Or where you park and not myself. How would GM ever figure it out?
How many people have had DBS?
Now how many have had it with their cars parked at airports or in their garages?
Those seem to be the two most frequent places where DBS occurs.
What kinds of transmissions and waves come from out of, and around, airports?
You are assuming that its circuits. It might not be. Could be waves. Waves are what make your key FOB work in the first place. And the FOB controls that car. Some of this could come down to stray radio frequencies waking the car up.
What if your car had 3 episodes of DBS and mine had none?
Then I started parking my car where you park yours and you start parking yours where I park mine and all of a sudden I get DBS, and now you don't?
DBS seems to be caused by something waking the car up. What if that something was in your garage and not mine? Or where you park and not myself. How would GM ever figure it out?
How many people have had DBS?
Now how many have had it with their cars parked at airports or in their garages?
Those seem to be the two most frequent places where DBS occurs.
What kinds of transmissions and waves come from out of, and around, airports?
You are assuming that its circuits. It might not be. Could be waves. Waves are what make your key FOB work in the first place. And the FOB controls that car. Some of this could come down to stray radio frequencies waking the car up.
Last edited by '06 Quicksilver Z06; Jun 3, 2006 at 07:45 PM.
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From: Oceanside CA
When I was with FoMoCo, in the early days of computer controls, we had problems with RFI (radio frequency interference),
This was in the years of the CB radio craze and we found cases of one car "keying its CB mike," and the spark on the Ford next to it retarded 25 degrees (or some other computer related thing)! How do you find that other than luck or hugh amounts of testing?
That's why I'm willing to cut Chevrolet some slack on these problems - as long as they find and offer a first-class fix.
This was in the years of the CB radio craze and we found cases of one car "keying its CB mike," and the spark on the Ford next to it retarded 25 degrees (or some other computer related thing)! How do you find that other than luck or hugh amounts of testing?
That's why I'm willing to cut Chevrolet some slack on these problems - as long as they find and offer a first-class fix.
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Originally Posted by tlacroix
That's why I'm willing to cut Chevrolet some slack on these problems - as long as they find and offer a first-class fix.
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Originally Posted by shopdog
It is called a key. When you mechanically interrupt power with a key switch, the circuits are dead, dead, dead, and can't draw any power. When you close the switch again, power can flow, and the car will start. It worked flawlessly for over a century in cars and trucks of all descriptions. First rule of engineering, don't fix what isn't broke.
Electronics is wonderful stuff..........I love what it has done for sound sytems, tv's, etc. I love what it has done for the basic operation of automotive engines, BUT, anything taken to the extremes presents the greater probability of problems. Just look at Mercedes and BMW......they were the first to start really start pushing the envelope on the potential for electronics .....now the electronic complexity of their vehicles has increased the number of service calls and overall reliability ratings. Sometimes simplicity ( the key ) is better!
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[QUOTE=DSOM Z51]
Now how many have had it with their cars parked at airports or in their garages?
Those seem to be the two most frequent places where DBS occurs.
QUOTE]
I will address this one issue a bit but kinda know you will find fault with it
DBS (as I define it) most often happens 2 to 3 days after it is shutdown by the numbers. That is why it normally occurs in 2 to 3 days(assuming a good battery). You park in your garage or long term parking, you miight be gone/not useing car for a few days. Go to work 7-10 hours later your coming home. Stay a night at a motel , your on the road next day. So in plain English if your battery ok you can have up to 2+days before your battery runs down.
I watched my car have DBS 3 weeks ago. (Reported Here) For 2 1/2 days the red blinker light (by radio no Nav) was doing its thing. Next time I looked a few hours later no blinky and car was dead. Got out charger and a few minuits later it lit off.
If I knew my car was going DBS I would have called Chevy and perhaps they might have sent a mechanic that could have found the problem. My first clue was when I first saw no blinking light.
In my year with a DBS car I have found out if car goes over 3 days it will be ok for at least 3 weeks. Your results may be different.
Now how many have had it with their cars parked at airports or in their garages?
Those seem to be the two most frequent places where DBS occurs.
QUOTE]
I will address this one issue a bit but kinda know you will find fault with it
DBS (as I define it) most often happens 2 to 3 days after it is shutdown by the numbers. That is why it normally occurs in 2 to 3 days(assuming a good battery). You park in your garage or long term parking, you miight be gone/not useing car for a few days. Go to work 7-10 hours later your coming home. Stay a night at a motel , your on the road next day. So in plain English if your battery ok you can have up to 2+days before your battery runs down.
I watched my car have DBS 3 weeks ago. (Reported Here) For 2 1/2 days the red blinker light (by radio no Nav) was doing its thing. Next time I looked a few hours later no blinky and car was dead. Got out charger and a few minuits later it lit off.
If I knew my car was going DBS I would have called Chevy and perhaps they might have sent a mechanic that could have found the problem. My first clue was when I first saw no blinking light.
In my year with a DBS car I have found out if car goes over 3 days it will be ok for at least 3 weeks. Your results may be different.
Last edited by 6spdC6; Jun 4, 2006 at 09:37 AM.
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Originally Posted by DSOM Z51
Now how many have had it with their cars parked at airports or in their garages?
Those seem to be the two most frequent places where DBS occurs.
Originally Posted by 6spdC6
I will address this one issue a bit but kinda know you will find fault with it
DBS (as I define it) most often happens 2 to 3 days after it is shutdown by the numbers. That is why it normally occurs in 2 to 3 days(assuming a good battery). You park in your garage or long term parking, you miight be gone/not useing car for a few days. Go to work 7-10 hours later your coming home. Stay a night at a motel , your on the road next day. So in plain English if your battery ok you can have up to 2+days before your battery runs down.
I watched my car have DBS 3 weeks ago. (Reported Here) For 2 1/2 days the red blinker light (by radio no Nav) was doing its thing. Next time I looked a few hours later no blinky and car was dead. Got out charger and a few minuits later it lit off.
If I knew my car was going DBS I would have called Chevy and perhaps they might have sent a mechanic that could have found the problem. My first clue was when I first saw no blinking light.
In my year with a DBS car I have found out if car goes over 3 days it will be ok for at least 3 weeks. Your results may be different.
DBS (as I define it) most often happens 2 to 3 days after it is shutdown by the numbers. That is why it normally occurs in 2 to 3 days(assuming a good battery). You park in your garage or long term parking, you miight be gone/not useing car for a few days. Go to work 7-10 hours later your coming home. Stay a night at a motel , your on the road next day. So in plain English if your battery ok you can have up to 2+days before your battery runs down.
I watched my car have DBS 3 weeks ago. (Reported Here) For 2 1/2 days the red blinker light (by radio no Nav) was doing its thing. Next time I looked a few hours later no blinky and car was dead. Got out charger and a few minuits later it lit off.
If I knew my car was going DBS I would have called Chevy and perhaps they might have sent a mechanic that could have found the problem. My first clue was when I first saw no blinking light.
In my year with a DBS car I have found out if car goes over 3 days it will be ok for at least 3 weeks. Your results may be different.
When the same exact thing happens in an '06 manual or auto, or '05 auto, it is somehow not, and cannot possibly be "DBS".
Granted it appears that the problem shows up in '05 manuals moreso than any of the other cars. But the same thing does indeed hit other cars. See the recent post by C5-Bruce.
This business of referring to "DBS" as somehow exclusive to '05 manuals is an idea whose time has come and long since gone.
I can only say this. If my car ever suffered an unexplained dead battery, I would have the charging system looked at. I would have the battery checked.
I would also, under no circumstances, leave the same battery in it. It is amazing how some have seen a complete discharge of their batteries, and knowing full well that a battery which has been run down is prone to do so again, but go ahead and leave that same battery in the car.
I would also change batteries to a different brand. There are very few people here who with confirmed DBS who claim to have killed Optima batteries after switching to them.
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Originally Posted by shopdog
It is called a key. When you mechanically interrupt power with a key switch, the circuits are dead, dead, dead, and can't draw any power. When you close the switch again, power can flow, and the car will start. It worked flawlessly for over a century in cars and trucks of all descriptions. First rule of engineering, don't fix what isn't broke.
How would you like to be the battery supplier who gets blamed every time the battery goes dead, when the reality is the complexity of the vehicle made the battery go dead.
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Originally Posted by timd38
The problem with cars today is that they use a CAN bus system that is simular to a token ring computer network. Something besides the ignition switch can turn modules on in the bus and then the battery goes dead.
How would you like to be the battery supplier who gets blamed every time the battery goes dead, when the reality is the complexity of the vehicle made the battery go dead.
How would you like to be the battery supplier who gets blamed every time the battery goes dead, when the reality is the complexity of the vehicle made the battery go dead.
How would you like to be a C6 owner whose brand new battery was actually found to be defective?
This supplier seems to have somewhat of a track record for making a product of questionable quality.
Out of curiosity, what kind of battery is in your own car?
Last edited by '06 Quicksilver Z06; Jun 4, 2006 at 11:17 AM.
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Originally Posted by DSOM Z51
Out of curiosity, what kind of battery is in your own car?
I have a yellow Optima in my car, but I also work for the company that makes the, as you would say, "junk Delco" battery and the Optima. I put the "junk Delco" in my neighbors Alfa, and it works fine.
The reality is that GM's electrical system is "junk" not the battery and I am not going to debate this with you.
The better question is, what is my daily driver, the answer is, it does not have a GM logo on it.
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My DBS has occurred exclusively in my garage. However, I'm not convinced it has anything to do with it's surroundings. That is the only place the majority of these cars sit for any length of time. On a trip where the car sits only overnight AFTER a long drive where the battery is fully charged it is unlikely to completely discharge even if an event were to occur. I remain convinced it's the column lock and or reverse sensor. I also agree that a key for the ignition would have been fine and that the keyless hocus pocus, while impressive, is prone to problems. I am over 1 year without an event.
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Key might not be solution?
Originally Posted by timd38
The problem with cars today is that they use a CAN bus system that is simular to a token ring computer network. Something besides the ignition switch can turn modules on in the bus and then the battery goes dead.
How would you like to be the battery supplier who gets blamed every time the battery goes dead, when the reality is the complexity of the vehicle made the battery go dead.
How would you like to be the battery supplier who gets blamed every time the battery goes dead, when the reality is the complexity of the vehicle made the battery go dead.
With respect to battery suppliers, my experience, from working in the industry, is that batteries and tires are blamed for all sorts of vehicle or driver problems. They are often a symptom, not a disease.
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Originally Posted by tlacroix
I judge from what you are saying, that a conventional key-type ignition switch might not solve dbs?
With respect to battery suppliers, my experience, from working in the industry, is that batteries and tires are blamed for all sorts of vehicle or driver problems. They are often a symptom, not a disease.
With respect to battery suppliers, my experience, from working in the industry, is that batteries and tires are blamed for all sorts of vehicle or driver problems. They are often a symptom, not a disease.
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Originally Posted by timd38
I have a yellow Optima in my car, but I also work for the company that makes the, as you would say, "junk Delco" battery and the Optima. I put the "junk Delco" in my neighbors Alfa, and it works fine.
The reality is that GM's electrical system is "junk" not the battery and I am not going to debate this with you.
The reality is that GM's electrical system is "junk" not the battery and I am not going to debate this with you.
Thank you. No need for debate. So you have an Optima Yellow Top in your own car but you put a Delco in your neighbor's car.
Originally Posted by timd38
The reality is that GM's electrical system is "junk" not the battery and I am not going to debate this with you.
What say you about that and their track record as it pertains to quality???
Originally Posted by timd38
The better question is, what is my daily driver, the answer is, it does not have a GM logo on it.
Delco batteries seem to be alright for other people, but not you. And you say that you work for the people who actually make their batteries.
This battery came standard in your C6, yet you changed it out.
That speaks volumes. There is no need for debate. You have already done all the "debating" needed.
So no, I already asked the better question and you answered it. For that, I thank you.
I would like to ask another question, if you don't mind.
Seeing as how your original Delco battery never got the chance to fail in your own car, and if/when it does fail, it will be in your neighbor's car, has your Optima Yellow top ever failed to start your car?
Incidentally, another Delco battery seems to have crapped out. Wonder if he will get an Optima Yellow top like yours.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1409447
I'll await your response. Thank you.
Last edited by '06 Quicksilver Z06; Jun 4, 2006 at 02:26 PM.
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Originally Posted by tlacroix
In my opinion, this should not be “black magic” to highly qualified electronics technicians, especially those at GM.
I personally think that GM is probably getting so much BS and so many different descriptions of how and when it occurs, from so many sources, that they are not sure of how and under what exact circumstances it occurs. Also, the actual occurrences of dbs, compared to number of C6 starts, is no doubt, minuscule. Otherwise they would have it fixed. Also, remember they probably have to be legally careful with announcing any cures.What am I missing? Or, could it be that GM is too busy chasing tops?
I personally think that GM is probably getting so much BS and so many different descriptions of how and when it occurs, from so many sources, that they are not sure of how and under what exact circumstances it occurs. Also, the actual occurrences of dbs, compared to number of C6 starts, is no doubt, minuscule. Otherwise they would have it fixed. Also, remember they probably have to be legally careful with announcing any cures.What am I missing? Or, could it be that GM is too busy chasing tops?
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...e&forum_id=101
GM response 3/06
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...post1554268474
GM response 4/06 post #273:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...1247604&page=3
GM response 5/06 post #96:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...post1555204011
Latest from C5_Bruce post #16:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1407370
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Originally Posted by DSOM Z51
Thank you. No need for debate. So you have an Optima Yellow Top in your own car but you put a Delco in your neighbor's car.
Interesting. You vehemently state that the battery is not "junk" its the car's electrical system. I think that I would be correct in believing that you are aware of the leaking Delco batteries which ruined electrical components in the C5????
What say you about that and their track record as it pertains to quality???
No, I already asked the better question and you answered it.
Delco batteries seem to be alright for other people, but not you. And you say that you work for the people who actually make their batteries.
This battery came standard in your C6, yet you changed it out.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1409447
I'll await your response. Thank you.
Interesting. You vehemently state that the battery is not "junk" its the car's electrical system. I think that I would be correct in believing that you are aware of the leaking Delco batteries which ruined electrical components in the C5????
What say you about that and their track record as it pertains to quality???
No, I already asked the better question and you answered it.
Delco batteries seem to be alright for other people, but not you. And you say that you work for the people who actually make their batteries.
This battery came standard in your C6, yet you changed it out.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1409447
I'll await your response. Thank you.
I put a yellow Optima in my car to match the yellow paint, plus they look cool.
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Originally Posted by timd38
The leaking Delco batteries were made by Delphi. The Current Corvette battery is made by JCI.
I put a yellow Optima in my car to match the yellow paint, plus they look cool.
I put a yellow Optima in my car to match the yellow paint, plus they look cool.
So you changed your battery out just for the looks. Why did you tell the guy in post #18 of this thread http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1269619 to get a Yellow Top? His car is not yellow.
http://www.optimabatteries.com/publi...utomotive.html
"Demand more from your vehicle? Then get more from your battery. OPTIMA YellowTop batteries are made for the extremes. If you have an extreme vehicle, you expect high performance. Whether your vehicle is made to take the abuse of off-road driving or cranking out decibels, you need more from your battery..........If your vehicle has a lot of accessories like running lights, high-performance stereo/AV system, winches, or hydraulics, your vehicle demands more from its battery. OPTIMA YellowTOP batteries provide the extra performance and deep cycling capability that your vehicle demands."
Sounds like that would be ideal for a C6 Vette with the electronic demands it seems to have.
You sure the only reasons why you changed batteries was because the Optima Yellow top looked cool and matched the color of your car?
