I do understand that flexible struts mounted like they are mounted in the DTE Rear End Brace will not limit movement of the cases that they are mounted to. If they were a rigid,inflexible brace they would help stop movement between the two cases.

 

Your reply, like others, is exactly the single-dimensional thought process what we're referring to regarding the public's general basic misunderstanding of how the product was designed and engineered for in the first place. What you think the product is designed to do based merely on looking at pictures is exactly the opposite of what is really going on and therein lies the core seed of misunderstanding that leads to folks bashing our product who have never even used it or tried it out for themselves. It's quite comical to see just how far and to what great lengths some folks will go just to discredit our product's performance, even though they have never used it for themselves....

We typically go round-and-round like this about 2 or 3 times a year with the naysayers regarding this topic and every single time in the end, our product still proves everyone wrong by speaking for us in build quality, performance and providing driveline durability in many different configurations that we claim it does/can. That product quality and performance is the very reason for it's continued success to this very day and the hundreds of satisfied customers of all years of Corvette all across the USA and abroad are a testiment to that.

We'll always be willing to answer questions when they are presented in an adult-like, non-condescending fashion, however we will *NOT* engage someone in an online argument who doesn't even have one of our products for themselves, nor have even tried it out for themselves; as that serves no constructive purpose for anyone reading or participating in it.

If you don't believe in the product or don't like it, than simply don't buy it, but don't come on a public board with a huge internet ego and bash a known, good product based soley on your conjecture and personal opinion when having never even used it or purchased for yourself in the first place.

The product has proven itself over time and will continue to do so, despite what others falsely "think" of how the product may or may not work.

Edit: One last thing that was almost forgotton~ We had to deal with this very synicism and doubt when we first released the C5 product years ago... We knew the product performed as designed, but it took others a while to understand how it worked for them to be comfortable in purchasing it. Back then, there we're folks with broken differentials and transmissions coming from the track and then there were our customers using our product that didn't have those problems. Needless to say, the product soon sold themselves once folks understood them and saw the benefits of the product's implementation with their own eyes.

Have a nice night gents.

 

Something to consider guys, these cases aren't busting just because the cases are weak. They are busting because there are forces causing them to flex or twist. Any sort of reinforcement to help maintain a set position should help them survive a little better. Will the brace prevent rearend failure? No. Will it possibly protect it from possible failure? Probably.

The two rods at the top help distribute the load at the rear of the case, and heim joints work to transfer energy. Heim joints aren't meant to lock position, since they freely rotate on their axis. They are simply intended for maintaining a constant offset length, and transferring loads. This helps reduce potential flex.

That being said, I can't wait until someone makes either a cast iron housing, or a billet block housing. The stock one is JUNK. It is as light as a feather once the internals are removed, it might weigh 8-10 lbs.

Tony

 

Totally agree. I had the DTE brace on my C5 and was happy it was there. I would feel better if the C6 one had the same support on the bottom. I see that the mounting arms are in the way so that is understandable. It wasnt pictured at the time I bought it and was surprised when it arrived. If the bottom supports werent needed they wouldn't have been on the C5 version.

The best solution is to go to a non C6 rear with a center mount if you can. I know cartek does the conversion on the east coast and have told their customers they have done more than 20 of them. I swapped out my own with a cartek built rear.

With the cost of the C6 core at 3 times the C5's core it is the best option for rear diff strength. Nothing is going to make the C6's bad design any stronger. Doing this on a 2005 is easy. The 2006+ will require a change to the rear transmission case.

This topic is getting a bit old. I'm done with my opinion.

 

Didn't GM's price recently come down on the C6 rears, almost to C5 levels?

 

The core from certain vendors has actually gone up to 2100.

If there are any questions on my posts from anyone feel free to PM me. Once the thread becomes a "everyone is stupid but us and spreads misinformation" thread, it doesnt foster discussion and opinion.

I was told by a tuner that the C6 brace isnt the great product that the C5 brace was. I owned both and agree, having sold the C6 brace. When cartek's car destroyed its rear diff they didnt buy a ton of aftermaket parts to strengthen the driveline....they just changed the rear to a C5 unit...no brace. Enough for me.

You people arent stupid, look at it and decide for yourself or at the very least call your tuner and ask their opinion. Not many of them will recommend it. I checked.

 

I think that wheel hop and the resulting alternating pounding forces are a large factor in trans/diff breakage.
Some C5's (like mine) seem to do that no matter what you try and I'm sure the brace is better than nothing, but if you have lots of torque + wheel hop your probably going to lose the rear regardless.

Roy

 

The DTE Rear End Brace Thread started to get all members ideas on if it was worth installing. SpinMonster has a good point (like he always does) in the fact that he thinks the Brace works for the C5 with four struts but questions it function with only two struts on the C6 application. Is it not possible for the C6 Brace to have four struts? I am very sorry if we have offended anyone during this discussion of very good observations by very experienced members of the forum. I do apologize for my very poor choice of words on occasions. I "think" the general consciences is that the Brace is a good product but we all have questions about it function on a C6 application.
Respectfully
C6RAPTOR

 

Do you guys even know how those rods function? Are they seeing compression, or tension, or both? Maybe there wasn't a need for four bars to handle the loads? Maybe DTE figured out the lower two bars on the C5 setup weren't really doing much?

I don't have the answers, but I'm sure there is a valid reason behind the design change.

 

At the risk of being flamed (a heck of a lot of that going around here these days!), studying the design of the C6 rear while my car was on the lift I can see why it doesn't have 4 bars, it doesn't seem there is room.

I might be way off base here, but I know there is a natural tendency for axle wrap - that's why old leaf spring Camaros used slapper traction bars. If you look where the C6 diff is mounted, in front of the centerline of the axle (unlike the C5 which is slightly behind the axle), you can imagine the axle wrap load placed on the side covers of the diff in drag strip use would be great. I imagine the DTE brace takes this axle wrap load and spreads it to the upper trans mount, thus sharing the great load on those aluminum side covers.

BEFORE YOU FLAME ME PLEASE KNOW THAT I'M JUST OFFERING A SUGGESTION TO FURTHER DISCUSSION. I'M NOT AN ENGINEER. JUST A 40 YEAR OLD GUY WHO'S BEEN READING CAR MAGAZINES SINCE I WAS 6 AND WORKED AS A MECHANIC IN COLLEGE. It would be interesting to see if I'm correct though!

 

Good question for DTE.

 

You are exactly correct in many areas. Good insight and pleasantly presented.

This explanation of the design concepts of this product is going to be very long to get it all in and I'll not have time to type it all out at once, as I've got other things to do in the shop today, so I'll tackle it one post at a time throughout the day, regardless of the direction of this thread or the questions asked during that time. Then, once I'm done, I can answer other questions as a result of the explanation of our product thereafter.


The C6 differential strut has only 2 differentlal strut rods for 2 very specific main reasons- The first minor reason is due to the lack of physical room to actually fit the lower strut rods into the vehicle chassis or through the same geometric plane as the 2 lower differential mounting brackets currently are. The second more critical reason is that the current upper strut rods of our product are designed to function in tandem with the support of the stock differential mounting brackets that are present in the C6 Corvette chassis.

When we ran the current, O.E. C6 differential mounting design through our structural engineering modeling software that has the ability to pinpoint areas of critical stress, we found that the stock differential mounting design would fair well for a stock car with relatively low-level stress loads. (i.e. non-abusive driving) However, when we began adding additional theoretical stresses onto this design typical of high performance Corvette use on the street or while racing such as axle hop issues, lower ratio gearing, heavier impact loads, additional upward torsional loading and a likely combination of partial/all of the above listed, the product modeling PC screen lit up in red everywhere where there were possible and likely places for fractures to occur! It was quite dramatic and interesting...

Ironically, that prediction was very accurate, because most of the C6 differentials we've seen broken in the field, have fractured in the very places we we thought it would based on that previous analysis data and due to some or all of the issues we've previously listed that leads to the catastrophic differential failure.

More later, duty calls....

Phil Rickard
President/Owner
Dynotech Engineering Inc.

 

Continuing and some of this will be oversimplified to save time...

The C6 Corvette differential has 2 major distinctive differences between it and the C5 unit. The first is that the C6 model has two lower mounting attachment points- one at 5 o'clock position and the other at 7 o'clock position that are forward of the axle centerline axis compared to the C5 model as having just one mounting attachment point at the 6 o'clock position.

More importantly, the second difference is that the C6 model is manufactured from a permanant, high-pressure mold as a die-cast casting, (less overall strength but cheaper to produce) compared to the C5 model being a sand mold casting that's heat treated. (stronger than die cast, but more costly to produce)

These two inherent differences are very important when determining what product we chose to design for added strength, how to design that product, materials of the product and execution of the design as installed onto the differential.

The dual mounting pad configuration of the C6 differential is a major step forward in improvement from the manufacturer to counteract some of the destructive, upward wrap-up motion that these cars are faced with, but in doing so, there is now much more unsupported weight over-hanging towards the rear of the axle centerline axis than there ever was with the C5 model. That is one problem....

Additionally, the materials and manufacruring techniques of the C6 differential case may make the unit cheaper to produce, but also effectively makes it far less tolerant to abusive shock loads that most Corvettes expereince today with power adders of many kinds being readily available and commonly performed on these cars. This is the second problem...

More later..


Phil

 

As with any vehicle's chassis destined for HP use or application, there is good/desired drivetrain or suspension movement and then there is bad drivetrain or suspension movement- which in the case of the Corvette, the bad-movement is destructive as well.

The twisting movement of the C5 Corvette's driveline is good movement- to a point and that is why the rear differential mount of the C5 Corvette has a steel pivot pin located down the center of the rubber isolater to allow some torsional movement, but prevent excessive swings from side to side. If this pin breaks unknowingly by the vehicle owner (which it often does) than the rear portion of the drivetrain has no effective support, therefore catastrophic differential failures occur due to case fracture from the violent whiplash effect of a hard launch or from axle hop.

How many folks here have actually taken the rear rubber differential mount off of their C5 Corvette to visually and carefully inspect it to see if it is broken? How many have actually replaced them or have even heard of anyone replacing them pre-emptively?? Not many, thats for sure! However, they haven't been replaced from owner negligence most likely, but simply because one cannot see the underlying damage of these mounts unless your're specifically looking for it.
*This is why some folks can't figure out why they keep breaking differentials/transmissions time-after-time, when others aren't, as age of the vehicle often plays a huge role in how well the chassis/suspension operated with each other in tandem during a hard launch.

The C6 Corvette dual mounting pad configuration has effectively provided additional torsional movement limits compared to the C5 model AND they have effectively provided additional differential support to counteract the potentially destructive upward wrap-up action of the differential itself-- all at the same time.

These 2 oversimplified reasons are why the C5 and the C6 differential strut models differ from each other and if either of these differentials were locked down to have no movement at all, (other than a full-tilt race car) than the stresses of either type of movement would find another area to attack and you'll likely have excessive rattles, creaks and groans with the car's chassis-- not to mention cracks appearing mysteriously everywhere on the car.

Some movement is good and desired to some extent-- at least for a street car.

I'll be right back-- all this typing is very tiring, so I hope someone appreciates this.....


Phil

 

MANY of us appreciate it, both the information you are giving us and your time to type it in an understandable fashion.

For those who don't know, do a search for Phil's other posts if you want to know mucho information on the entire C5 and now C6 drive train and its weak spots, along with the work his company has done to provide solutions for those of us who challenge our drivetrains in track situations. Of all the people on the board, Phil is one of the last guys who should be flamed. He provides his time and information for free whereas many other vendors just say, it's good, trust me.

That's why I'm a repeat customer! Phil does his homework before the product is offered for sale.

 

And I started this mess!Now I am totally impressed with the answers that Phil has given us. I am impressed enough and satisfied that Phil has done his homework that I now have the answer that I was seeking on my first post on the subject. I am sure Phil appreciates the fact that not all of the members know him and know of his credibility. Thank you Phil for your patients. What vender should I order your DTE C6 Rear End Brace from?

 

To follow-up..

C5
The fracture areas of the C5 differential were mainly at the connection of the transmission and the differential, where the force vector breaking them was similar to what you would see if you were to break a stick over your knee-- that's the destructive upward wrap-up action we often refer to. The C5 differential strut uses 4 strut rods to secure the trans. to the differential housing, because it only has one mounting attachment point described above and it needed supplimental structural support from all four strut rods in that vulnerable area.

The upper strut rods are pre-loaded in tension to pull the differential case to the transmission and the lower strut rods are also pre-loaded this same way. This type of support isn't meant to prevent torsional stress, but rather the opposite action of our pre-loaded strut rods. The Heim joints are only there to facilitate easy bolt installation that secure the Heim joints themselves to the strut rod mounting blocks. We're only interested in compressive/tension loads with these, not lateral or for and aft movements-- hence their use.

Oversimplified~ the kit as a whole, with all its HD brackets, secured to the strongest mounting points of the driveline, effectively absorbes the shock loads from the weakest areas of the driveline described above and disperses it evenely across a greater surface area, all across the strongest driveline locations.


C6
The same engineering principal holds true for this model as it does for the C5 unit, however with the C6, GM has already done some of the work for us by adding two lower mounting pad attachment points described above. The only areas of high fracture probability we saw in modeling that we had to concern ourselves with at that juncture was to control the stress loads occuring at the vulnerable trans./diff. connection using two upper strut rods pre-loaded in the same fashion as it was in the C5 unit.

Since both models have heavy duty steel differential side cover brackets implemented in the design, they effectively act as a girdle for the differential side covers and the case itself, in that it ties all the perimeter side cover bolts together with a steel material that does not deflect under load. To further add torsional strength of these brackets as mounted, there is a steel tie-bar bolted between them that keeps the two differential brackets in parallel with each other while under stress, that further resists case deflection under heavy load.

Simplicity by design is what makes it so effective...for both models.


Finally, we're engineers here folks, not some monkeys in the corner who thinks things up just to make money because they look cool... We purposely engineer, test and produce the products we sell using sound engineering principles before we EVER bring anything to market...and we will never waiver from this philosophy.

To us, "Function Follows Form" FIRST, not the other way around, as it's commonly seen thoughout the aftermarket industry today. When we release something for sale to the public, you can bet that we've already traveled down the long, dusty roads of R&D many times over and we'll have already tested the product to know it works and fits properly FIRST as we claim, before it ever hits market.

I hope that sheds at least a little light on the design concept of our differential strut products. A lot of what was presented here was over-simplified to save time and to let my fingers heal from all this typing, but I hope most will get the gist of it overall by what was stated here.


Phil Rickard
President/Owner
Dynotech Engineering Inc.

 

I also, as others have mentioned, appreciate VERY MUCH your efforts in engineering and analyzing the C6 diffy/strut issues.
It would seem that the internet brings out the worst in some people since they can remain faceless and anonymous. When that happens, they think they are just "debating" the issues but it comes out as attacks. Please dont let them get to you. As a vendor, it's hard I am sure because you need to answer their questions. But you have pretty much maintained your cool.

Once you make a brace for the 2005 A4, if they need it, I will buy one if I can find someone with a lift to help me install it.

Thanks for your efforts Phil.

 

It's like that line in True Romance. " I'd rather have a gun, and not need it, than need a gun, and not have it."

I am getting the Brace once DTE has it available for my c6 05 A4. Plus, 350 bucks is a drop in the bucket for what it MIGHT prevent. Hell, a chrome alternator cover cost 150, everything is expensive for these cars.

Oh Phil, I was on the early order list at that price. Hopefully it still gets honored.

Sean

 

Me too. I will take one for my C6 05 6 speed for $350