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Old Sep 23, 2006 | 02:41 PM
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Default speed density tune

I here a lot of talk about it. please info me why it is so good to do a speed density tune.
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Old Sep 23, 2006 | 02:43 PM
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me too.
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Old Sep 23, 2006 | 04:19 PM
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Hope this helps some...
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showth...1&page=1&pp=20
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Old Sep 23, 2006 | 05:43 PM
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Thanks for the info
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Old Sep 23, 2006 | 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by blue racer c6
I here a lot of talk about it. please info me why it is so good to do a speed density tune.
Cliff notes on MAF vs SD from the above linked thread:

gameover's post:

If we aren't being LS1 specific then the argument boils down to, would you rather try to measure something directly or estimate it? There are lots of analogies to real world situations.

eg. would you work out your house electricity usage by looking at the rating of all your appliances, measure how long you had them all on for each day and then add them for your final result? Or would you just read the meter?

the MAF is a means of directly measuring the airflow into the engine. The main errors involved here are:
1. the MAFs accuracy which depends a lot on the flow characteristics (ie. smooth vs. turbulent)
2. an assumption based on airflow distribution to each cylinder (most code i have seen assumes equal distribution). The more symmetric your intake design is the better.

SD is a way of estimating the airflow into the engine using RPM, MAP and IAT. The errors involved in SD are:
1. the VE table assumes your engines efficiency never changes. Obviously any engine modifications change this. Also, the VE is often calibrated by trail and error using other measurement techniques such as WBO2 sensors etc. which also introduce extra error.
2. estimation of the inlet charge temperature, this is not just the measured IAT value (which is usually far from the cylinders) and can have a complex model of manifold and cylinder head heating effects. This can be a significant error depending on where and how the IAT sensor is located and the techniques used to estimate the cylinder air charge temperature.
3. Manifold pressure, assumed uniform and accurate.

By it's nature SD introduces more error into the calculation and hence why it is often used as a backup to the MAF. But, SD also allows a lot of freedom in tuning especially on wild intake setups where having all the air run thru a single point is not desired. eg. 8 throttle body setups, some twin turbo's etc.

SD is also often used when the airflow requirements of the engine are beyond the MAF's measuring capability, typically on a 5.7L LS1 this is around 8psi boost.

You can see that the MAF offers the most "set and forget" value but has some limitations in serious performance applications. SD offers the most tunability and flexibility but you need to keep an eye on it more and understand it is no panacea of exactness.

For most OEM applications that use a torque-based control model, the MAF is a key component to indicating the torque estimation calculation is giving accurate results and often if the MAF fails many other systems resort to a "default" behavior. This is very evident in the later vehicles that have TCM's fitted where basically the whole trans operation depends on a valid torque signal being transmitted from the ECM to the TCM. Unpicking the puzzle of what depends on what to make SD work the way you would expect is sometimes not trivial. In many cases the complexity of SD far outweighs the perceived gain by removing the MAF. IMO, unless the gains are clear and obvious leave the MAF on.

Hope that helps,

Chris...
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and Black02SS's post about HumpinSS's findings (dyno results):

HumpinSS did a test with SD and a MAF. He is runing a 90/90 setup and used a 85mm MAF. There was no noticable difference on the dyno between the two.
About says it all.
SD tuning is great to get the VE table accurately dialed in after heads, cam etc. A wideband O2 is a huge help.Then the MAF can be rescaled using the new VE table and the wideband O2.
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Old Sep 23, 2006 | 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by shurite44
me too.
Why?....all you need to do is spring for my plane ticket for the tune, FAST manifold, and any other quick things you have the parts and tools for.
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Old Sep 23, 2006 | 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by SpinMonster
Why?....all you need to do is spring for my plane ticket for the tune, FAST manifold, and any other quick things you have the parts and tools for.
lol, spin, you are offering shurite44 free tuning service as long as he covers your cost? i see more request coming your way.....
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Old Sep 23, 2006 | 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted by cbrf4i1
lol, spin, you are offering shurite44 free tuning service as long as he covers your cost? i see more request coming your way.....
He and I have been talking about me getting there and doing a lot of free mods and the tune when he gets the parts. We have spoken on the phone a bit and will be moving on it soon.

VetteNo2 actually took me up on the offer and I flew to kentucky for a FAST manifold and a tune. I had a great time and will be going there again soon for a mini-vacation and a free cam swap....its a hobby. Retirement has its freedoms.

I had been in contact with these and lots of other guys having made friends as far as California for doing mods. I made a lot of good friends. If anyone needs a tune in the NY area and pays for the license to my HPtuners cable, I would help anyone out. The fiorst guy I helped was upstate NY and was doing a clutch swap and couldnt figure out the slave/bearing thing so I drove up and did it for him. He paid for gas. I felt good and whenever I get a good vibe from someone and they are close or willing to meet up, I do it for free.
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Old Sep 23, 2006 | 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by SpinMonster
Why?....all you need to do is spring for my plane ticket for the tune, FAST manifold, and any other quick things you have the parts and tools for.
Because I am the curious type.

Not sure I want to lose my MAF. Am I getting this correct, you take the MAF off when you do this tune?

Yes Spin I am currently trying to find a good used FAST. A little rare, occasionally one comes up in the C5 forum for sale. By the way I ran a 12.56 last Wednesday.
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Old Sep 23, 2006 | 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by shurite44
Because I am the curious type.

Not sure I want to lose my MAF. Am I getting this correct, you take the MAF off when you do this tune?

Yes Spin I am currently trying to find a good used FAST. A little rare, occasionally one comes up in the C5 forum for sale. By the way I ran a 12.56 last Wednesday.
12.56 is fast for the furious.....but not....

Hey, I will reduce my rates from zero to zero plus a good dinner...lol

The MAF gets turned off then comes back on for the changes in weather and temps.
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Old Sep 24, 2006 | 11:48 AM
  #11  
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Originally Posted by SpinMonster
12.56 is fast for the furious.....but not....

Hey, I will reduce my rates from zero to zero plus a good dinner...lol

The MAF gets turned off then comes back on for the changes in weather and temps.
LOL, inside joke. Hey by the way the fat part of the team is getting back in shape.

I am heading up Saturday to see the furious by the way. He wants me to drive the vette so I am planning on that.
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Old Sep 25, 2006 | 09:42 PM
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If you think the MAF is a restriction in your car (say 475hp or more), then get the Lingenfelter 100mm MAF for $300. It takes some tuning, and some fabrication, but you'll get there a lot faster, and with less drivability issues, than going SD.
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Old Sep 26, 2006 | 12:16 AM
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Originally Posted by davidfarmer
If you think the MAF is a restriction in your car (say 475hp or more), then get the Lingenfelter 100mm MAF for $300. It takes some tuning, and some fabrication, but you'll get there a lot faster, and with less drivability issues, than going SD.
Having been tuned in speed density mode doesnt mean running MAFless. The original poster asked about speed density tuning and not running a car in speed density.

I think there is some misunderstanding about the term. The VE table is still wrong if you tune in a different MAF. A VE tune or speed density tune doesnt nec. mean you arent going to run a MAF, it just means you tuned the car without the MAF screwing up the fueling. You turn off the MAF get the VE table correct for your mods, then turn back on the MAF and correct that too.

If tuned properly, the car would run fine without the MAF but as soon as weather conditions change, the car would need a retune to be optimum since it is the MAF that readjusts for changes like that.
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Old Sep 26, 2006 | 12:20 AM
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Originally Posted by davidfarmer
If you think the MAF is a restriction in your car (say 475hp or more), then get the Lingenfelter 100mm MAF for $300. It takes some tuning, and some fabrication, but you'll get there a lot faster, and with less drivability issues, than going SD.
The MAF "restriction" issue, on the 05's at least - is a programming issue in the MAF table of the 05 ECU. The Ling MAF isn't going to solve it without reprogramming the MAF tables anyway (nor is the ling MAF "massager" which does work to some extent though). There is a MAF patch for HPTuners (but not for LS2 Edit). When I ran into this issue (before I bought a 2nd computer and sent it to maggie for the base tune and MAF patch), ling had told us they were putting thier own MAF's in 05's, and hand mapping the MAF tables. It's a shame GM just doesn't publish the flow/frq tables for thier MAF, so this doesn't have to be "guess-timated" by tuners.

As for the 450HP limitation, this is the (average) point where the MAF runs "out of table" in the 05 ECU, and the computer just FREAKS OUT -the most common symptom being fuel cutoff's @ around 5,200RPM. Most tuners work around this (without the MAF patch) by totally fattening up the PE to the point where it over-runs the cutoff. But the ECU is still freaking out, by getting values from the MAF that it doesnt know what to do with (does not compute)...

SD tuning (from my understanding) gives greater precision (though it's much more time consuming) in the initial VE/PE table programming, then you reconnect the MAF anyway. Most tuners don't use a seperate wideband 02 sensor, and don't log anyway. They do successive dyno runs, and adjust the WOT/PE tables to level the A/F's for the installed mods. Bypassing the MAF and logging, allows you to do successive table edits to level the A/F's (while considering IAT's, timing tables, MAP's and other input) to arrive at a more accurate table. Then you reconnect the MAF to compensate for intake air and environmental factors.

My $.02

Rick
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