So GM did publish that the C5 ZO6 is a tenth faster in the 1/4 than a C6 Z51? So technically the C5 ZO6 is faster according to GM than any non ZO6 C6 according to GM if I'm reading this correct..........

 

Yes.

Ponder this for a second. If Chevy had made the manual Z51 equipped C6 run as quickly as the C5 Z06, do you think that a lot of recent purchasers of the C5 Z06 would have been pissed???

I mean, go back to December 2004. Here you have the same car performance wise as the C5 Z06 I bought just 30 days ago, granted at a discount, because they were practically giving away C5s when the C6 came out, but it looks more modern, and you can take the top off of it. Same exact performance,...... but you can remove the roof, or even get it in a convertable, and its more technology advanced and more comfortable to ride in. They'd have been irate. You'd have seen a lot of one time Corvette owners. So Chevy left a gap.

Judging from the numbers you point to, how difficult do you think it would have been for Chevy to find that other tenth or part of it, if they had wanted to??? It would not have been hard.

The Chevy numbers you see listed for the C5 Z06 are 12.4 and for the C6 MN6 Z51 12.5. Many C5 Z06 owners and former owners, will tell you that the actual gap is wider than that. They'll point to the forum lists.

But some who have driven both cars will tell you that the 1 tenth difference is about right.

 

You may be right but it'd be the first time GM gave a rats AZZ what us owners think............ If the new Camaro has the same HP as a new vette that would give me some tight jaws. I don't want to hear that it weighs more, blah.. blah.. blah. GM had better up the vette HP over the Camaro or lots of new vette owners would be very unhappy IMO. It may only be for bragging rights but for the price differential vette owners wouldn't want to say, “Oh the Camaro is heavier therefore my 50 grand car is faster!” No way is that going to fly....

 

It would not be a very good marketing move for them to do that. I agree with you.

But with regard to what we were initially discussing:

Dealers would have had to discount any remaing C5 Z06 even deeper to move them. I mean, why buy one if you could have bought the C6, parked right next to it on the showroom floor, with the removable top, convertable top, and it gave the exact same performance in every category.

I can have the exact same performance from the factory, with a warranty, AND I can remove the top???

They had to hold something back.

A lot of dealers would have been stuck trying to move C5 Z06s, to say nothing of non Z06 C5s. The resale value of C5 Z06s, some of them just recently sold, would have really suffered. Even a person wanting to trade in his recently purchased C5 Z06 on one of the equally performing, removable roof C6s would have taken a beating and probably would have vowed never to buy another Vette.

Chevy does care, to an extent what we owners think. There are a lot of us here who are multiple Corvette owners. I would bet that a significant number of Vettes sold are not to first time owners.

Chevy does not want to alienate that group. I have owned 3 and will probably never be without a Vette as I fully intend to buy a C7.

However if they screwed me, by selling me a fixed roof C5 Z06, the absolute top of the line performing Vette out there, and then came out a few weeks or couple of months later, with a C6 which performed exactly the same, but offered it's owner a whole slew of modern bells and whistles, a more comfortable ride, and a removable top, a feature I was willing to give up, overlook and sacrifice, in exchange for the Z06's performance, I'd be pissed.

You mean to tell me that if I had waited a couple weeks, I could have had the same performance, PLUS all this extra stuff and a removable roof????? I'd be livid.

They had to hold something back from the factory. And don't think that its not there if one is willing to dig deep enough for it.

 

It does help to have an idea. I do worry about the S.D. traffic a little, having an auto and all, but it's okay....
......I'm ARMY tough

Go Army , Beat Navy

 

True. While I was/am out there to have fun too I must also admit that every time I headed to the track in my C6 much of the focus was on running a new personal best and possibly establishing a (and ultimately beating my own) stock automatic record...setting a new overall one was totally unexpected and just icing on the cake but I too have no doubts that if a Ranger/a J Rod/a Dr Ron etc were to do the same things I did but with a manual LS2 C6 they would go quicker than 12.2s for sure.


Again true but for the record I'm also not all that comfortable with beating on my car too much ironically LOL. My frugal nature and desire to keep my cars as fresh/new as possible has me in constant turmoil when it comes time to make that 150 mile round trip to/from the track, gas and tolls, entry fee to race and worse yet doing those crazy burnouts on my $325.00+ each factory runflats, that hurts!
So while I really did try to limit just how many passes I made in an attempt to not kill my new car/tires I did likely still make more of an effort than most in order to achieve a certain goal.

 

I disagree. I have run J-Rod with him driving 2 different C5 Z06's, and both with the exact same result. The C5Z has a better top end (and my car isnt even stock anymore). hands down. I have at least 100 passes on this C6 M6 Z51, and can drive it well. He IS a great driver, but when the launch is the same, the 60' is same, the 330 is the same, the 1/8 mile is the same, then the C5Z pulls away on the big end, it is NOT the tires, not the driver...it is simply more power in that particular part of the powerband. The C5Z has more power on the top end....PERIOD. The C6 rides better, much quieter, and about the same handling characteristics (or maybe a bit better) than the C5Z with more creature comforts and a removable top.

This debate can go on forever, but I am 100% convinced the C5Z is a bit faster on the big end than the C6.

Daren

 

Thanks for your response Daren.

I would ask a couple of questions if you don't mind.

1. Has Jrod driven your car and if so what was the result? Your ability is well documented, and respected on this board so please don't take this as a rip. I have a lot of respect for what you accomplished bone stock.

Another famous guy from Houston, and a good coach in his own right, once said of Don Shula: "He can take his'n and beat your'n, and then turn around and take your'n and beat his'n."

Has Jrod driven your car? Or any other manual C6 for several passes. And I only ask this because, well, who knows, he just may be able to get another tenth (or more) out of it. Or maybe not.

2. Are you a heavier man than Jrod? If so then by how much?

3. When he beat you in the Z06 do you recall what the race weights of the cars were?

4. In a drag race with the 60' is same, the 330 is the same, the 1/8 mile is the same, how many cars is he putting on you?

5. If he is running on an 18inch tire and you are running on a 19inch tire, why would you expect to run even up with him? Why wouldn't he pull away from you??? Especially if you are running at a higher raceweight?

6. Finally, I believe that you say that its the top end that is the difference. Perhaps the quickest, cheapest and easiest way to improve top end is with a Vararam. Is the top end gap beyond the difference that the Vararam could give?

Your car is about 90lbs heavier than his, 3318 lbs vs 3214lbs. You may be a larger man than he is, and you are running on an 19inch tire vs his 18 in.

I don't see how anyone would expect you and he to run nose to nose in a straight line race. I know that the Z06 is quicker. But I DO NOT believe that it is .43 seconds quicker. More like 0.1second. 0.2 seconds tops. Thats my point.

Thanks for your response

 

Those are good points and on paper it all makes sense, the 2002-2004 C5 Z06 should not be over 4/10ths quicker than a Z51 manual C6.
Could be torque management/factory detuning?

 

Why the debate? Even though the engines make about the same amount of HP that will not tell the story. First, what is the differences in cam profile? Does the C5Z make power earlier? That alone could be a huge difference. Second we all know that TM really limits what we can do with these cars.

And in the end who here would give up there C6 for a C5Z?

 

Excellent points and while I am not much of a drag racer anymore, they are still fun discussions.

What you say above, still points to Ranger.

How?????

If you follow his posts, he actually learned to drive around "torque management", at least to some degree, in his C6 Z06.

He did this through sheer repetition, force of will, diligence, and a near maniacal collection and analyzation of his runs. He put this together to help with where he wanted his shift points, his launch RPM etc. I am often amazed at how much information he was able to gather ( he was putting this stuff in spread sheets), sift through, study and use to make his record breaking C6 Z06 runs.

The killing thing of it, is that he was doing the same thing, taking the same type approach when he was running the C5 Z06.

Its going to take that, or near that, type of diligence and attention to detail to break 12.2 in these cars I believe.............Unless someone just gets lucky. It won't be easy by any stretch.

Whether TM actually exists or not is a discussion in and of itself. But my biggest point in all of this is, the reason why no one has broken 12.2 in a manual C6 yet is not because the car is incapable, but rather because no one has put forth the required effort.

I believe that its there for the taking, but the folks who have the talent and the skills to get it ,and live near and run on a track conducive to getting it, ........just don't run long enough bone stock to get it.

And once again, thats not a rip. Its just that extreme effort, skill, talent, conditions and a little bit (or even arguably a lot) of luck will be required to break it. But I do believe that these cars are capable of better than 12.2. That might be the quickest we have seen. But I don't believe that its the quickest the car will run.

I often wonder just what 06C6FVR and CYA-Vet would have ultimately run had they stayed bone stock and really went at it with the sole intention of breaking 12.2.

There is no doubt in my mind that one of them would have done it by now.

 

Now, those are great questions...ill answer them

1.J-Rod has never driven my car
2. Yes, J-Rod is probably about 70 lbs lighter than me (i wiegh 250)
3. I dont know the raceweights of the cars that night (My car is a 3LT Z51 car)
4. He beat me by 2 tenths and 2 car lengths (12.01 to a 12.23)
5. As far as tires go, i was actually running a 315/35/17 Drag radial that day, so actually my tires were shorter than his.
6. My car Dyno'd at 370 RWHP, his did 368 RWHP, so not much difference

He started to pull just after the 1/8 mile

Yes, he might be able to run it a little faster than me, but only due to me bieng FAT!! ...and I do believe the weight difference between the two cars makes a difference also...it always does!!!

I think something also that has been forgotten in all this is WEATHER (and the fact that Houston has one of the lowest elevation tracks at 10 ft). I pick and choose my days very carefully to get the best times. The 12.23 stock run was run in 45 Degree weather with no humidity at 10 ft of elevation...the DA was -1500. ( Had I weighed about 200lbs, i might have been a 12.15 (provided that the extra weight didnt help with traction)

But as far as apples to apples, me and JROD ran on the same night with same DA with 2 different Z06's VS My C6, both with almost exactly the same result.

Here are the runs from that night, and as you can see, I can drive VERY consistently back to back to back!!! (the next to the last,i missed 3rd, and the last i missed 4th)

R/t 60' 330' 1/8 1/8mph 1000' 1/4 1/4MPH
.111 1.867 5.234 7.966 92.01 10.306 12.268 114.59
.271 1.862 5.230 7.964 92.15 10.302 12.262 114.82
.112 1.911 5.231 7.963 91.68 10.292 12.256 114.54
.281 1.859 5.202 7.952 91.78 10.296 12.264 114.28
.155 1.882 5.214 7.930 92.45 10.265 12.233 114.26
.276 1.856 5.181 7.905 92.40 10.244 12.217 114.03
.185 1.969 5.328 8.094 91.16 10.451 12.433 113.54
.083 1.864 5.210 7.934 92.28 10.296 12.507 100.17

Thanks for the great questions, I have nothing to hide here, and I never will say that Im the best driver out there, as there is always something to learn from someone (but I will say that I can compete pretty well!!)

Daren

 

I've run three different C5Z's, all in the 1/8th mile, for about 7-8 runs. Except for the last Z I ran, he had DR's that were well used and pulled a 1.8 vs my 2.2 and beat me good even though I had the extra power with my mods. The other runs were with my C6 (tune, cat-back, cai) vs C5Z (tip tie/DR's) and the C5Z starts pulling right before the 1/8th mile mark, every time. One driver lighter, the other heavier.

 

06C6FVR, please clarify one point for me.

I may be misreading your post. But here's what I'm taking away.

On the day you ran in the other lane from J-Rod, you state your C6-Z51 was running BFG 315.35.17s, which are drag radials. And you state that J-Rod was on taller tires.

I take that to mean J-Rod was on stock C5Z06 tires, which are 295.35.18 F1SCs. I say that because his drag tire of choice is the ET Street bias-ply in 16 inch, a shorter tire than you were on.

If that read is correct, then you had a traction advantage from launch through the shifts, which would explain why you stayed even with him, through the eighth mile mark.

Had J-Rod been on sticky tires, like you were, he very likely would have cut at least two tenths from his 660' time.

Perhaps, I missed something.

Ranger

 

Thanks for your response and this clarifies a few things for me.

A base C6 is listed at 3214 lbs. A C5 Z06 at 3118lbs. These are the listed curb weights and I believe taken with a full fuel load and all fluids topped off. Of course no one drag races with a full fuel load. But assuming the two had the same amount of fuel, thats a 96lb weight difference.

One driver is 70lbs heavier than the other. That takes it to 166lbs.

The C6 is a 3LT which is said to be heavier too but estimates vary. The best information I can find on what the difference might be is in http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1581605 post #20.

So you're giving up about 180lbs to him. ( I very highly doubt that 3LT adds 64 lbs.)

With a 180lb weight advantage, the results you describe are about what one would expect. That would be like him driving with an adult male passenger.

The cars make virtually the same power. If I recall, your modifications are very minimal and include weld on magnaflow mufflers, (not even a catback) and a tune. I am thinking that his car was completely bone stock???

But any way, thanks again for your reply.

 

Yes Ranger, he was on stock C5Z06 tires. I havent figured out how to really launch the drag radials, (as you can see by the high 1.8xx 60'..though consistent) He was also cutting very similar 60' times in the 1.8xxx range on the stock C5Z tires(yes, if he had ET streets, his time would have definately been better). On my stock runflats, i have cut a best of 1.82 and on the 12.23 run, it was a 1.84, so the drag radials havent done much for me yet, except making the launch VERY consistent...it hasnt improved the time.

Yes DSOM, his is completely stock, mine has weld in magnaflows and a tune. (hence the 370 RWHP instead of 350RWHP stock)


Bottom line, he still pulls away AFTER 20 extra RWHP (which would make up the difference in weight), So again, my deduction would be that the C5Z06 is quicker in the 1/4 Mile stock to stock than the C6. I would never give up my C6 to go back, so ill just spend a few extra dollars and have the same performance!!!

Also, for clarification Ranger, He did NOT spin on the launch or any of the shifts. HRP does great track prep, and at this power level, if you are gonna spin, its only gonna be on the launch.

Daren

 

Thanks for the info, 06C6FVR.

Having studied videos of J-Rod's passes on stock tires at HRP, a loud chirp is discernible on his 1-2 and 2-3. That noise is spin. It also can be heard on his ET Streets but is less pronounced. The term dead-hook is relative. Strong shifts will almost alway produce some spin, more on stock tires than on DRs.

Just a thought.

Ranger

 

Yes, but I don't believe the .43 seconds quicker advanced by some.

 

Even though the drag radials (which are also slightly shorter giving a small gear advantage) may not have helped you much on the launch, as Ranger points out (about J Rod on a tire) they may have helped you on the 1-2 and possibly even the 2-3 shifts even with that awesome track prep, maybe.

I too still agree that though it is clearly quicker, a C5 Z06 is likely not a full .43 quicker either.

 

Just back from a test drive.....I can barely stand myself.
WHAT A FUNKI BALI HAI !!

I tried to create a CAGS gear block, but couldn't. Seemed like I could almost do 60 mph in first gear ! Not sure what the hubbub is about.

Shifter a wee bit stiff - my max bench is 425 lbs, I'll get over it. There will be a learning curve associated w/ the gearbox, though. It'll take some time for me to shift accurately and quickly, it's tighter than I'm used too. ( Last manual tranny for me was a four speed).

Holy SMOKES does it have power....in all gears.

Still waiting for this permagrin to leave me, it's been an hour.

Black on black, Z51, MN6....possibly a 3LT ( the HUD was most kewl)

I'm not leaving this planet until I get one