Cats or no Cats
Burning Brakes
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,131
Likes: 1
From: LAS VEGAS NV
Love pu$$y. Hate cats!!
NO CATS
1. saved me money
2. makes my car sound sweeter(LG'S,+no cats+bullets
)
3.prob gave me an xtra 5rwhp-not much, but it adds up
4. saves weight???
my car is not a daily driver so its not that much of a prob. as for the smell, not great, but tolerable.
NO CATS
1. saved me money
2. makes my car sound sweeter(LG'S,+no cats+bullets
)3.prob gave me an xtra 5rwhp-not much, but it adds up
4. saves weight???
my car is not a daily driver so its not that much of a prob. as for the smell, not great, but tolerable.
Racer
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 255
Likes: 1
From: San Diego County CA
To cats, or not to cats: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of the EPA,
Or to take arms against a sea of tuners,
And by opposing end them? To gut: to have increased performance;
No more; and by performance to say we end
The ego-ache and the thousand natural modifications
That fiberglass and aluminum is heir to, 'tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish'd. To gut: to have increased performance;
To perform: perchance to pass another vette, ay, there's the rub;
For in that passing on the straight what dreams may come
When we have gutted off this mortal obstruction
Must give us acceleration: there's the respect
That makes quickly of so long an otherwise pass
For who would bear the waves and cheers of fellow vette-owners,
The government’s wrong, the proud man's contumely,
The pangs of despised modification addiction, the law's of lateral acceleration
The impatience of hesitation and the fumes
That patient merit of the worthy secret mod,
When he himself might in noisiness make
With a bare exhaust? who would fardels fear,
To grunt and sweat harnessing a terrifying flame,
But that they dread of something coming up after
The undiscover'd fuel economy from whose purchase
No gasoline buyer is ever rebated, puzzles the will
And makes us rather bear those middle east profiteers we conceive
Than fly past others that know not of our secret?
Thus conscience does make stronger to defy the will of governmental dogma;
And thus the native hue of the vette owner resolution
Thou competitors are sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought,
And enterprises of great flow and moment of inertia
With this regard their currents high turns awry,
And gain the name of action. - Winner are you now!
The fair Corvette! Nymph, in thy orisons
Be all my modifications remember'd.
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of the EPA,
Or to take arms against a sea of tuners,
And by opposing end them? To gut: to have increased performance;
No more; and by performance to say we end
The ego-ache and the thousand natural modifications
That fiberglass and aluminum is heir to, 'tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish'd. To gut: to have increased performance;
To perform: perchance to pass another vette, ay, there's the rub;
For in that passing on the straight what dreams may come
When we have gutted off this mortal obstruction
Must give us acceleration: there's the respect
That makes quickly of so long an otherwise pass
For who would bear the waves and cheers of fellow vette-owners,
The government’s wrong, the proud man's contumely,
The pangs of despised modification addiction, the law's of lateral acceleration
The impatience of hesitation and the fumes
That patient merit of the worthy secret mod,
When he himself might in noisiness make
With a bare exhaust? who would fardels fear,
To grunt and sweat harnessing a terrifying flame,
But that they dread of something coming up after
The undiscover'd fuel economy from whose purchase
No gasoline buyer is ever rebated, puzzles the will
And makes us rather bear those middle east profiteers we conceive
Than fly past others that know not of our secret?
Thus conscience does make stronger to defy the will of governmental dogma;
And thus the native hue of the vette owner resolution
Thou competitors are sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought,
And enterprises of great flow and moment of inertia
With this regard their currents high turns awry,
And gain the name of action. - Winner are you now!
The fair Corvette! Nymph, in thy orisons
Be all my modifications remember'd.
Pretty good, laughed out loud although, thinkest thee might have slipped a pentameter here and there.
Burning Brakes
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 822
Likes: 1
From: College Station TX
Some people are sooo funny!
Let me put this in perspective as to performance to dollar vallue!!!!
You people will spend upwards of $2500 for headers/cat-back/labor/dyne tune to gain a measly 30 HORSEPOWER.... That's $83.33 dollars per HP gain
Now why in the hell would anyone thats after performance leave 5 HP extra on the table that cost them (5x$83.33) $416.65 not to account the extra savings of not buying the cats to start with (around $250)!
So now after you add both together ($416.65+$250).................That "no-cat" option just saved you $666.65
For those that said don't worry about the 5 HP loss from adding cats in my quest for performance after spending my hard earned money....PLEASE TELL ME YOU HAVE FINACIAL ADVISORS that help you manage your money
*This is only true if you live in a non-emmission testing county and for those that say, "what about the eco system"....why are you buying a gas guzzling V8 in the first place, then!*
Let me put this in perspective as to performance to dollar vallue!!!!You people will spend upwards of $2500 for headers/cat-back/labor/dyne tune to gain a measly 30 HORSEPOWER....
That's $83.33 dollars per HP gain Now why in the hell would anyone thats after performance leave 5 HP extra on the table that cost them (5x$83.33) $416.65 not to account the extra savings of not buying the cats to start with (around $250)! So now after you add both together ($416.65+$250).................That "no-cat" option just saved you $666.65 For those that said don't worry about the 5 HP loss from adding cats in my quest for performance after spending my hard earned money....PLEASE TELL ME YOU HAVE FINACIAL ADVISORS that help you manage your money
*This is only true if you live in a non-emmission testing county and for those that say, "what about the eco system"....why are you buying a gas guzzling V8 in the first place, then!*
Last edited by MAGRED2001VETTE; May 16, 2007 at 10:48 AM.
Racer
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 255
Likes: 1
From: San Diego County CA
Some people are sooo funny! Let me put this in perspective as to performance to dollar vallue!!!!
You people will spend upwards of $2500 for headers/cat-back/labor/dyne tune to gain a measly 30 HORSEPOWER.... That's $83.33 dollars per HP gain Now why in the hell would anyone thats after performance leave 5 HP extra on the table that cost them (5x$83.33) $416.65 not to account the extra savings of not buying the cats to start with (around $250)! So now after you add both together ($416.65+$250).................That "no-cat" option just saved you $666.65
For those that said don't worry about the 5 HP loss from adding cats in my quest for performance after spending my hard earned money....PLEASE TELL ME YOU HAVE FINACIAL ADVISORS that help you manage your money
*This is only true if you live in a non-emmission testing county and for those that say, "what about the eco system"....why are you buying a gas guzzling V8 in the first place, then!*
Let me put this in perspective as to performance to dollar vallue!!!!You people will spend upwards of $2500 for headers/cat-back/labor/dyne tune to gain a measly 30 HORSEPOWER....
That's $83.33 dollars per HP gain Now why in the hell would anyone thats after performance leave 5 HP extra on the table that cost them (5x$83.33) $416.65 not to account the extra savings of not buying the cats to start with (around $250)! So now after you add both together ($416.65+$250).................That "no-cat" option just saved you $666.65 For those that said don't worry about the 5 HP loss from adding cats in my quest for performance after spending my hard earned money....PLEASE TELL ME YOU HAVE FINACIAL ADVISORS that help you manage your money
*This is only true if you live in a non-emmission testing county and for those that say, "what about the eco system"....why are you buying a gas guzzling V8 in the first place, then!*
Race Director
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 10,089
Likes: 14
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Burning Brakes
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,030
Likes: 0
From: Pittsburgh PA
Anybody know about this? For 60-70years cars ran without cats and they were not as efficient but did not smell bad. Now the exhaust smells w/o cats in spite of computer controls and fuel injection?
Racer
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 315
Likes: 0
From: Norman OK
NO CATS!!!!! I got B&B headers, stock h-pipe (so there's NO CATS), installed them myself (with a bud), a K&N CAI, and a tune and picked up 40 rwhp... All for $1560... The smell isn't bad, trust me. If you don't have to run cats, don't!
B&B Headers - $860
Tune - $400
K&N - $300
Total - $1560 (some pay almost that for a catback)
+40 rwhp ($39.00 per hp)
B&B Headers - $860
Tune - $400
K&N - $300
Total - $1560 (some pay almost that for a catback)
+40 rwhp ($39.00 per hp)
Last edited by SoonerC6; May 18, 2007 at 11:46 AM.
SAY "NO" TO CATS 
Instructor
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 153
Likes: 0
From: chicago il
NO CATS!!!!! I got B&B headers, stock h-pipe (so there's NO CATS), installed them myself (with a bud), a K&N CAI, and a tune and picked up 40 rwhp... All for $1560... The smell isn't bad, trust me. If you don't have to run cats, don't!
B&B Headers - $860
Tune - $400
K&N - $300
Total - $1560 (some pay almost that for a catback)
+40 rwhp ($39.00 per hp)
B&B Headers - $860
Tune - $400
K&N - $300
Total - $1560 (some pay almost that for a catback)
+40 rwhp ($39.00 per hp)
if you only have 91 octane and not do the tune your $ per hp is even higher.
Safety Car
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,647
Likes: 1
From: Objects in your mirror are losing , Long Island, NY
St. Jude Donor '08
Premium Supporting Vendor
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,852
Likes: 123
From: www.EXOTICVETTE.com - FL Cruise-In VI, VII, & VIII
Cruise-In V Veteran
St. Jude's Donor '05-'06-'07-'08-'09-'10-'11-'12-'13-'14-'15-'16
I'm debating the same thing for Monday's order.... I like the louder sound and the smell really doesn't bother me in any of the other cars I have without them. One thing that has me a little concerned is that Bush is talking about some kind of manditory emissions yada yada stuff by 2010 to be in place and start next year in 08. Not sure what it will entail but I wouldn't be shocked to hear the emissions program being reimplemented here in FL (and everywhere else possibly). But who knows!?!?
May go without cats now and order the cats pipe later for a few hundred if I change my mind. I'll see how the trip to KY for the Cruise In sounds without them for about 20+ hours of round-trip driving (if I don't hit brush fire highway closures up near GA / FL line)
May go without cats now and order the cats pipe later for a few hundred if I change my mind. I'll see how the trip to KY for the Cruise In sounds without them for about 20+ hours of round-trip driving (if I don't hit brush fire highway closures up near GA / FL line)
Melting Slicks
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,218
Likes: 3
We already drive Corvettes, a selfish vehicle. Yes, we get good mileage on the highway, but around town not necessarily, and many of us play with the cars which burns even more fuel.
We live in an era where we have overcome emissions restrictions and can build high performance machines that don't destroy the environment as much as vehicles did in the past. Why wouldn't you spend the extra money to get high-flow cats?
With the way gas prices are going and with the continuing debate over environmental concerns, these days of high-hp gasoline powered motors may come to an end soon. Being responsible and clean might extend this era a few more years... it may also keep legislators at bay.
The real causes of environmental destruction are unrestricted automobiles in developing nations, the industrialization of the third world, and poor regulation and control of agricultural biproducts and deforestation. However, cars are not always necessary and cars like the Corvette definitely aren't; they are a luxury item, and as such giving the American motorist the axe will be favored over stopping the industrialization of China or logging in Brazil or whatever just out of simplicity. Plus, we Americans can be guilted into it and we also have the luxury to be able to make such changes.
Of course, I'd be interested in seeing some data as to just how bad a C6 is without cats versus with cats. It may be negligible, but my guess is cats make a big difference.
I think I'm getting too lofty here... sorry! Just get high-flow cats!
Last edited by KMK454; May 19, 2007 at 05:09 PM.
Race Director
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 10,089
Likes: 14
We all should know that running without cats is illegal. What some may not know is that running with so-called high flow cats is illegal too. Even relocating the OEM cats is illegal. All of these acts can result in the same fine, and for the same reason, increased HC emissions, particularly while the car is warming up. So if you choose to be a scofflaw, then you might as well choose to go the full way, since the penalties are the same.
A well tuned warmed up car will meet current (non-California) HC emissions levels without cats. So the only time cats on a current generation car make a practical HC emissions difference is during warm up. And with respect to "global warming", those partially oxidized hydrocarbons don't contribute to the greenhouse effect. In fact they have the reverse effect, producing low level clouds (aka smog) that increase Earth's albedo, reflecting heat back into space.
CO2 does contibute to the greenhouse according to current theory, and CO2 is the result of completely oxidized hydrocarbons, which is what cats do. So if you believe in the global warming crisis, you might want to break the law and remove your cats to reduce the amount of CO2 your car is spewing out.
However, NOx emissions in a high compression engined car are a different story. The sharper you tune the engine for performance, the more NOx it will produce (combustion efficiency, and combustion temperature, increase, increasing NOx production). This is where OEM 3 way catalysts actually benefit you as a socially conscious hot rodder. They can reduce NOx to trivial levels. The so-called high flow cats can't. Running without cats can't. You need a good 3 way catalyst like our OEM cats to do it.
NOx is nasty, contributing to breathing problems in urban settings, causing acid rain, etc. The only other way to reduce NOx is to lower compression and tune the engine inefficiently, lowering combustion temperature, power, and gas mileage. All bad things from a performance driver's perspective. So if you really care about people's health, the salvation of our forests, lakes, and streams, want to reduce our dependence on foreign oil, etc, then you will run the OEM 3 way cats so the engine can be tuned for high efficiency without being a gross polluter.
Either way you slice it, the so-called high flow cats are a bad choice. On the one hand, they don't do a good job of reducing the already relatively benign HCs because their efficiency is low, and on the other hand they do nothing to reduce NOx (none of the so-called high flow cats are 3 way). And on the third hand, they really don't help performance much if at all either. Just a waste of good money.
Either run with the OEM cats, or do without. Both are better choices than the so-called high flow cats. In my opinion, running with the OEM cats, even relocated if necessary, is the best choice. They have negligible effect on power output, but they do a good job of reducing NOx, the real villian of auto pollution. They keep you legal too, if you don't relocate them. If you do relocate them, they still do their job of reducing NOx, but won't light off as quickly and will allow increases in the relatively benign HC emissions during warm up, but still less than the other alternatives of no cats or using the so-called high flow cats.
A well tuned warmed up car will meet current (non-California) HC emissions levels without cats. So the only time cats on a current generation car make a practical HC emissions difference is during warm up. And with respect to "global warming", those partially oxidized hydrocarbons don't contribute to the greenhouse effect. In fact they have the reverse effect, producing low level clouds (aka smog) that increase Earth's albedo, reflecting heat back into space.
CO2 does contibute to the greenhouse according to current theory, and CO2 is the result of completely oxidized hydrocarbons, which is what cats do. So if you believe in the global warming crisis, you might want to break the law and remove your cats to reduce the amount of CO2 your car is spewing out.
However, NOx emissions in a high compression engined car are a different story. The sharper you tune the engine for performance, the more NOx it will produce (combustion efficiency, and combustion temperature, increase, increasing NOx production). This is where OEM 3 way catalysts actually benefit you as a socially conscious hot rodder. They can reduce NOx to trivial levels. The so-called high flow cats can't. Running without cats can't. You need a good 3 way catalyst like our OEM cats to do it.
NOx is nasty, contributing to breathing problems in urban settings, causing acid rain, etc. The only other way to reduce NOx is to lower compression and tune the engine inefficiently, lowering combustion temperature, power, and gas mileage. All bad things from a performance driver's perspective. So if you really care about people's health, the salvation of our forests, lakes, and streams, want to reduce our dependence on foreign oil, etc, then you will run the OEM 3 way cats so the engine can be tuned for high efficiency without being a gross polluter.
Either way you slice it, the so-called high flow cats are a bad choice. On the one hand, they don't do a good job of reducing the already relatively benign HCs because their efficiency is low, and on the other hand they do nothing to reduce NOx (none of the so-called high flow cats are 3 way). And on the third hand, they really don't help performance much if at all either. Just a waste of good money.
Either run with the OEM cats, or do without. Both are better choices than the so-called high flow cats. In my opinion, running with the OEM cats, even relocated if necessary, is the best choice. They have negligible effect on power output, but they do a good job of reducing NOx, the real villian of auto pollution. They keep you legal too, if you don't relocate them. If you do relocate them, they still do their job of reducing NOx, but won't light off as quickly and will allow increases in the relatively benign HC emissions during warm up, but still less than the other alternatives of no cats or using the so-called high flow cats.
Moderator emeritus
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 18,599
Likes: 3,954
From: Jacksonville Florida BWO Dayton, Cincinnati, Bloomsbury NJ, Cincinnati
2015 C7 of the Year Finalist
Excuse me but..
The smell that is objectionable (rotten eggs) is sulfur in the fuel reacting with the CATs. If there's no CATs, how can you get the odor? You just may have confused me with that smell problem.
I've been running w/o CATS for 3 years and no odor.
Elmer
The smell that is objectionable (rotten eggs) is sulfur in the fuel reacting with the CATs. If there's no CATs, how can you get the odor? You just may have confused me with that smell problem.
I've been running w/o CATS for 3 years and no odor.
Elmer
Last edited by eboggs_jkvl; May 19, 2007 at 08:08 PM.