not I said the poor man
Electric Water Pump
Racer
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 371
Likes: 0
From: CA
You lost me on this one???
Do you mean you wouldn't use one if you were doing sustained high rpm work, i.e. road racing??
And if so, why not??
Or did mean something else and if so, what??
Please enlighten us, as I am also considering this option on my C6
Do you mean you wouldn't use one if you were doing sustained high rpm work, i.e. road racing??
And if so, why not??
Or did mean something else and if so, what??
Please enlighten us, as I am also considering this option on my C6
Drifting
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,549
Likes: 1
From: Roanoke Virginia
Oh ok I thought it was self evident. I was once interested in these things. Historically these were good for dragsters, then they spread around to daily drivers to get a few more HP. Now they're hitting the performance market - it's not working. I admit it looks good on paper. Problem is even if the pump had the same GPM, it can't push against the same resistance. Try one out. Put your hand up to block the output and see. The majority of reports I have read from people returning to stock water pumps are road racers who get overheating problems after a time. Then there are the sudden failure stories. No warning.
I remain interested in electric water pumps, they make some sense to me. Just that, they're pretty expensive and still need improvements.
I remain interested in electric water pumps, they make some sense to me. Just that, they're pretty expensive and still need improvements.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,596
Likes: 19
From: Portland Oregon
Why would you want to replace a perfectly good water pump for a electric job that is expensive? You will not realize much gains in terms of power, and as for reliability for sustained use, that would be a problem for me. Look at it this way, you are away from home on a road trip, you have a pump failure, where do you think you are going to get a new pump? I doubt many shops would keep one on the shelf. My warehouse which is a major distributor of performance parts don't even stock one. Now if you have a stock pump, you will find that almost anywhere.
Race Director
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 18,396
Likes: 169
I'm running the Meziere. Two reasons: It runs at a consistant output, not tied to the rpm of the engine. If you toss a belt (also running a ProCharger) it will get you home. I've had zero issue with it. Works as advertised.
oh, and it's good for 6-8 hp at the top end.
oh, and it's good for 6-8 hp at the top end.
Drifting
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,254
Likes: 0
From: Ft. Liquordale Florida
Why would you want to replace a perfectly good water pump for a electric job that is expensive? You will not realize much gains in terms of power, and as for reliability for sustained use, that would be a problem for me. Look at it this way, you are away from home on a road trip, you have a pump failure, where do you think you are going to get a new pump? I doubt many shops would keep one on the shelf. My warehouse which is a major distributor of performance parts don't even stock one. Now if you have a stock pump, you will find that almost anywhere.
to a point. Had to replace my stock pump, only no one had one in stock. 1-2 days away. Ended up replacing with a 3K mi "take off" from someone who just put an electric in at the shop I use.The main benefit of the electric is to reduce the drag on the serpentine from driving the water pump. The other upside is you can still cool the car with a thrown belt and get it home/to the shop.
While interesting in theory - as mentioned above - reduced output at high RPM's (it's a single, not variable speed pump), and the risk of failure without available replacement kinda steered me away from it.
My interest comes from the fact that my maggie at full boost puts a SERIOUS load on the belt (30HP +/- according to magnuson), which I believe to be the contributing cause of failure to my original pump (@ 62K mi - leaky seal). I'm still kinda interested, but due to the factors noted above, not enough to replace the belt driven one...
Rick
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Burning Brakes
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 800
Likes: 0
From: Las Vegas Nevada
I had a Meziere installed on mine and I love it. You asked for pro's/con's. so here they are.
Pro's.
5-10 hp depending on the RPM's, higher RPM = more hp
The car stays alot cooler, thru the summer the stock C6 was hitting deep into the 200's (vegas heat is a biotch). Now with it 120 outside and me beating up the car it just hits 200. The second I stop and idle it drops to the 190 range.
Easier to tune, the car cools down so much quicker with the high rpm electric motor going at full throttle when the car is at 800 rpm's. Instead of waiting 20 minutes between pulls or worrying about heat sink you can almost go back to back runs on the dyno. My tuner loves me lol.
Con's. Cost, its not a cheap 5hp.
Can get the car to cool. When the winter hit here in vegas I started throwing a CEL. It was my fault because I didn't change the water wetter in the winter but either way the combo of the pump and WW was running the car so cool the CEL was popping on because of emissions.
Basically I love the water pump but I would do all the other bolt-ons first. I would only recommend the pump for someone that has FI, H/C or every bolt on in the book.
Pro's.
5-10 hp depending on the RPM's, higher RPM = more hp
The car stays alot cooler, thru the summer the stock C6 was hitting deep into the 200's (vegas heat is a biotch). Now with it 120 outside and me beating up the car it just hits 200. The second I stop and idle it drops to the 190 range.
Easier to tune, the car cools down so much quicker with the high rpm electric motor going at full throttle when the car is at 800 rpm's. Instead of waiting 20 minutes between pulls or worrying about heat sink you can almost go back to back runs on the dyno. My tuner loves me lol.
Con's. Cost, its not a cheap 5hp.
Can get the car to cool. When the winter hit here in vegas I started throwing a CEL. It was my fault because I didn't change the water wetter in the winter but either way the combo of the pump and WW was running the car so cool the CEL was popping on because of emissions.
Basically I love the water pump but I would do all the other bolt-ons first. I would only recommend the pump for someone that has FI, H/C or every bolt on in the book.
Tech Contributor
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 12,094
Likes: 197
From: Colorado Springs, CO
St. Jude Donor '08-'09-'10-'11
Drag racers also love the car-off-with-pump-running feature.
As for the power, www.LS1howto.com showed a dyno'ed 6hp gain.
The best is the pretty factor. There are guys that pay more than 600 bucks just for ugly chrome covers and beauty tweaks under the hood. I cant see how in a world of 1000+ exhaust systems that do nothing for power that its ok to justify exhausts for noise and not a water pump for beauty and 6hp.
If you live on the hiway, pack the stocker, pliers, and a 10mm rachet.
As for the power, www.LS1howto.com showed a dyno'ed 6hp gain.
The best is the pretty factor. There are guys that pay more than 600 bucks just for ugly chrome covers and beauty tweaks under the hood. I cant see how in a world of 1000+ exhaust systems that do nothing for power that its ok to justify exhausts for noise and not a water pump for beauty and 6hp.
If you live on the hiway, pack the stocker, pliers, and a 10mm rachet.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 800
Likes: 0
From: Las Vegas Nevada
Drag racers also love the car-off-with-pump-running feature.
As for the power, www.LS1howto.com showed a dyno'ed 6hp gain.
The best is the pretty factor. There are guys that pay more than 600 bucks just for ugly chrome covers and beauty tweaks under the hood. I cant see how in a world of 1000+ exhaust systems that do nothing for power that its ok to justify exhausts for noise and not a water pump for beauty and 6hp.
If you live on the hiway, pack the stocker, pliers, and a 10mm rachet.
As for the power, www.LS1howto.com showed a dyno'ed 6hp gain.
The best is the pretty factor. There are guys that pay more than 600 bucks just for ugly chrome covers and beauty tweaks under the hood. I cant see how in a world of 1000+ exhaust systems that do nothing for power that its ok to justify exhausts for noise and not a water pump for beauty and 6hp.
If you live on the hiway, pack the stocker, pliers, and a 10mm rachet.
:edit: Anyone know how to do this?
Last edited by Abomination; May 31, 2007 at 06:21 PM.
Instructor
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 144
Likes: 0
From: Colorado Springs Colorado
I switched back to my stock pump
I installed a Meziere pump on my 07 Z06 with a 160 degree thermostat. Simply stated, it won't keep the engine cool under stress. That is to say, if you are driving in 5th at 60 mph your at 170 degrees. Anything else, it creeps up into the 180s and 190s. That's with the outside temp in the 70s. I am afraid to take it to a road track, so, being very disappointed, I am replacing my stock pump with a 160 thermostat. We'll see. It was a total disappointment and waste for me.
VetteRobbie
VetteRobbie
Former Vendor
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 3,749
Likes: 4
From: Valencia Ca
Electric water pumps typically run at one speed, ~2500 RPM and that's also max flow. Consequently, fixed speed pumps like this are thoroughly ineffective at higher RPM's.
Additionally, and this comes from Evans Cooling, the typical flow of electric pumps are about 40% of that needed to manage engine speed above 5k RPM and worse above that.
Additionally, and this comes from Evans Cooling, the typical flow of electric pumps are about 40% of that needed to manage engine speed above 5k RPM and worse above that.
I installed a Meziere pump on my 07 Z06 with a 160 degree thermostat. Simply stated, it won't keep the engine cool under stress. That is to say, if you are driving in 5th at 60 mph your at 170 degrees. Anything else, it creeps up into the 180s and 190s. That's with the outside temp in the 70s. I am afraid to take it to a road track, so, being very disappointed, I am replacing my stock pump with a 160 thermostat. We'll see. It was a total disappointment and waste for me.
VetteRobbie
VetteRobbie
Racer
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 255
Likes: 1
From: San Diego County CA
Depends on what you plan on doing. From a mechanical ennginering point of view, it doesn't seem to make sense.
I don't have a pump curve but I would bet that the stock pump is a compromise. It needs to be large enough to cool at low RPM but that makes it too large at high rpm. The oversize shows up at high rpm as inefficiency and lost HP.
The power consumed by the electric pumps will be constant. If you total up the losses in converting mech energy to electrical then back to mechanical the total power consumed at crusing RPM will be higher than with a mechanical pump.
At high RPM, you are avoiding the losses in overspeeding the mechanical pump, giving you 6 hp.
Considering the cost and increased complexity, it seems like a poor tradeoff for normal driving.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,375
Likes: 1
From: Northern CA
Depends on what you plan on doing. From a mechanical ennginering point of view, it doesn't seem to make sense.
I don't have a pump curve but I would bet that the stock pump is a compromise. It needs to be large enough to cool at low RPM but that makes it too large at high rpm. The oversize shows up at high rpm as inefficiency and lost HP.
The power consumed by the electric pumps will be constant. If you total up the losses in converting mech energy to electrical then back to mechanical the total power consumed at crusing RPM will be higher than with a mechanical pump.
At high RPM, you are avoiding the losses in overspeeding the mechanical pump, giving you 6 hp.
Considering the cost and increased complexity, it seems like a poor tradeoff for normal driving.
I don't have a pump curve but I would bet that the stock pump is a compromise. It needs to be large enough to cool at low RPM but that makes it too large at high rpm. The oversize shows up at high rpm as inefficiency and lost HP.
The power consumed by the electric pumps will be constant. If you total up the losses in converting mech energy to electrical then back to mechanical the total power consumed at crusing RPM will be higher than with a mechanical pump.
At high RPM, you are avoiding the losses in overspeeding the mechanical pump, giving you 6 hp.
Considering the cost and increased complexity, it seems like a poor tradeoff for normal driving.
except the stock pump is a better match to reality than that. Engine heat rejection is roughly proportional to power output and power output at full throttle is roughly proportional to RPM. Mechanical pump flow is reasonably proportional to RPM, so it's a decent match.Unless water pumps have improved a lot in the past decade or so, there is a lot of room for improvement in automotive water pump efficiency. That could yield some power savings without hanging a bunch of electrical pump clap-trap on an engine.
Racer
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 255
Likes: 1
From: San Diego County CA
except the stock pump is a better match to reality than that. Engine heat rejection is roughly proportional to power output and power output at full throttle is roughly proportional to RPM. Mechanical pump flow is reasonably proportional to RPM, so it's a decent match.Unless water pumps have improved a lot in the past decade or so, there is a lot of room for improvement in automotive water pump efficiency. That could yield some power savings without hanging a bunch of electrical pump clap-trap on an engine.
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,533
Likes: 0
From: az
there is no free lunch....at least not on this one.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1740094
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...post1559049189
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1740094
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...post1559049189
Race Director
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 10,516
Likes: 2
From: Virginia Bch VA
Cruise-In VI Veteran
Cruise-In VII Veteran
St. Jude Donor '06
Agree with all said previously. My car is in for a H/C package as we speak. All the guys at CARTEK talked me out of one because of all the above. The biggest Pro as Spin said is cooling between runs at the track when the motor isn't running. The biggest con is abrupt and unpredictable failures @ about 3,000 hrs give or take. Have an elec water pump crap out when you're on the road and you're 2 days or so getting back together. The solution to that is to carry a spare pump. Not out of the question but is it worth all that?
Burning Brakes
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 800
Likes: 0
From: Las Vegas Nevada
I've had nothing but a positive experience with my pump. I've had it on for about 7500 miles and it works perfect. I've had my car (dark color) idling at a dead stop on the freeway in 115 degree weather for an hour with the A/C full blast and the car never was over 200.
On the other hand with my mechanical pump in stop and go traffic when it was about the same temperature the car was hitting 235
I've had the car on a road track and the 1/4 mile (granted 1/4 was at night but it was still 100 degrees here) and again the car never even hinted about overheating.
I do enjoy reading everyones logical arguments on why they don't work but here I am a year and a half later with nothing but good things to say about it driving in the hottest part of the country daily.
On the other hand with my mechanical pump in stop and go traffic when it was about the same temperature the car was hitting 235
I've had the car on a road track and the 1/4 mile (granted 1/4 was at night but it was still 100 degrees here) and again the car never even hinted about overheating.
I do enjoy reading everyones logical arguments on why they don't work but here I am a year and a half later with nothing but good things to say about it driving in the hottest part of the country daily.