CAM idle quality factors
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From: St. Louis, MO
St. Jude Donor '08
Charlie, this is fantastic information. Thanks for sharing it. 
I also very much appreciate how low you start your dyno runs, runs that start at 3k don't interest me since my car's a daily driver.
You wouldn't happen to have a G5x3 114 cam only stock heads .drf file you could email me joegut <at> gmail.com , would you? I'd like to overlay my current dyno to that cam to see how much I'd lose down low. I have a line on a great deal on that cam from a buddy. But experimenting with a non-ported intake I realize I can feel a loss of 12 rwtq on my daily drive so I'm afraid that cam's not for me.
Spin sorry for the hijack.
I also very much appreciate how low you start your dyno runs, runs that start at 3k don't interest me since my car's a daily driver.You wouldn't happen to have a G5x3 114 cam only stock heads .drf file you could email me joegut <at> gmail.com , would you? I'd like to overlay my current dyno to that cam to see how much I'd lose down low. I have a line on a great deal on that cam from a buddy. But experimenting with a non-ported intake I realize I can feel a loss of 12 rwtq on my daily drive so I'm afraid that cam's not for me.
Spin sorry for the hijack.
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From: Valencia Ca
Charlie, this is fantastic information. Thanks for sharing it. I also very much appreciate how low you start your dyno runs, runs that start at 3k don't interest me since my car's a daily driver.
You wouldn't happen to have a G5x3 114 cam only stock heads .drf file you could email me joegut <at> gmail.com , would you? I'd like to overlay my current dyno to that cam to see how much I'd lose down low. I have a line on a great deal on that cam from a buddy. But experimenting with a non-ported intake I realize I can feel a loss of 12 rwtq on my daily drive so I'm afraid that cam's not for me.
Spin sorry for the hijack.
I also very much appreciate how low you start your dyno runs, runs that start at 3k don't interest me since my car's a daily driver.You wouldn't happen to have a G5x3 114 cam only stock heads .drf file you could email me joegut <at> gmail.com , would you? I'd like to overlay my current dyno to that cam to see how much I'd lose down low. I have a line on a great deal on that cam from a buddy. But experimenting with a non-ported intake I realize I can feel a loss of 12 rwtq on my daily drive so I'm afraid that cam's not for me.
Spin sorry for the hijack.
Joe, these are high end engine sims not actual dyno pulls. I use this software for R&D and the numbers are accurate within 1-2%.
Send me your engine data and I'll run the graphs...
Thanks,
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St. Jude Donor '08
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From: Louisville Kentucky
Thread Starter
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From: Colorado Springs, CO
St. Jude Donor '08-'09-'10-'11
Posting actual dyno charts would show a 6-9 RWT torque loss in the sub 3500 range not 30 foot lbs.....and simply put, that would not fit the agenda here.
Having done real development and testing I've seen as little as 4 foot lbs loss and as high as 11 foot lbs loss in that range.
Having done real development and testing I've seen as little as 4 foot lbs loss and as high as 11 foot lbs loss in that range.
2-I already posted that I bought the 228/232 114LSA from Andy at A&A. Why did I get it? Andy posted the results of the work you state is your work, in which you/he acheived 400rwtq @ 3500 rpm, 425 rwtq at 4k. That is MORE than a 30-40rwtq loss to the heads used on the same cam as you posted the results. Same cam, same tuner, different heads. I dont own stock 243 heads and the ported ones I have arent doing less at 3k-4k.
Once again, I respect your work and appologize for being abraisive in the past. As a compliment to you and your research, you certainly have graphs very different from that of LG who has a pronounced dip at 3500 (360rwtq) and he can definitely tune a car well.
For those that didnt see it, here is the A&A etp/228/232xer install and look at the low end under 4k: http://www.aandacorvette.com/images/andysETP-dyno.gif
The TQ at 4k is 425rwtq. At 3500 it is over 400rwtq.
Enough. Appologies to all. I wasnt abrasive or disrespectful in any part of this thread.
90Droptop: The compression dropped from 11.4:1 to 11:1 on my install and yes that would have some impact on the low end, however the tune accepted almost 3 additional degrees of timing in that range.
EDITED: for the long winded content that no one wants to read.
Last edited by SpinMonster; Jun 1, 2007 at 03:53 PM.
Thread Starter
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From: Colorado Springs, CO
St. Jude Donor '08-'09-'10-'11
Getting back on track with my hijacked thread, a minor contribution to a better idle comes from increasing compression. Advancing a cam increases the DCR and will contribute somewhat to a better idle.
Dropping compression makes a cam act like its in a smaller displacement as explained by Dave Busch @ Cartek.
Dropping compression makes a cam act like its in a smaller displacement as explained by Dave Busch @ Cartek.
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From: Murrieta Ca..... America, fun while it lasted
So you have not dynoed the car with the new combo? If not, why are you mentioning a 30 rwt loss at low rpm? Seems a bit confusing to me and hardly back to back.
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St. Jude Donor '06
......Once again, I respect your work and appologize for being abraisive in the past. As a compliment to you and your research, you certainly have graphs very different from that of LG .....Enough. Appologies to all. .... for the long winded content that no one wants to read.
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From: Murrieta Ca..... America, fun while it lasted
I mention it because it was a comparrison to the ETP results charlie posted. Go click on the link. I have the same cam. Charlie needed a cam with 10 degrees more duration and flycutting with the L92's to get the same results as that ETP215 and 228xer combo. Mine had losses comparable since it cant now break tires loose in 2nd.
And even if I dyno the before and after of switching back and the data shows a loss, I will be:
A-Insulted about engine knowledge or
B-Be accused of falsifying the results.
The one thing that isnt going to happen if I post 2 dyno sheets is you agreeing the results arent as good with L92's.
Either way, they dont work well on 6 liter engines as compared to the ETP215's with a 228/232 xer 114 as Charlie already showed. Go click on the link and stop ignoring the 30rwtq differences I am pointing out (compared to etp215's and a 228 cam). Now is about where you go hide behind the cost differences. Some people would pay for the difference.
Get over it and hijack a different thread. This one had to do with idle quality on cams that get advanced. If you have a comment on that, then make it. Otherwise go push your favorite heads in a thread you create of your own.
And even if I dyno the before and after of switching back and the data shows a loss, I will be:
A-Insulted about engine knowledge or
B-Be accused of falsifying the results.
The one thing that isnt going to happen if I post 2 dyno sheets is you agreeing the results arent as good with L92's.
Either way, they dont work well on 6 liter engines as compared to the ETP215's with a 228/232 xer 114 as Charlie already showed. Go click on the link and stop ignoring the 30rwtq differences I am pointing out (compared to etp215's and a 228 cam). Now is about where you go hide behind the cost differences. Some people would pay for the difference.
Get over it and hijack a different thread. This one had to do with idle quality on cams that get advanced. If you have a comment on that, then make it. Otherwise go push your favorite heads in a thread you create of your own.
Ummm........ bi-polar
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From: Murrieta Ca..... America, fun while it lasted
Originally Posted by SpinMonster
I mention it because it was a comparrison to the ETP results charlie posted. Go click on the link. I have the same cam. Charlie needed a cam with 10 degrees more duration and flycutting with the L92's to get the same results as that ETP215 and 228xer combo. Mine had losses comparable since it cant now break tires loose in 2nd.
And even if I dyno the before and after of switching back and the data shows a loss, I will be:
A-Insulted about engine knowledge or
B-Be accused of falsifying the results.
The one thing that isnt going to happen if I post 2 dyno sheets is you agreeing the results arent as good with L92's.
Either way, they dont work well on 6 liter engines as compared to the ETP215's with a 228/232 xer 114 as Charlie already showed. Go click on the link and stop ignoring the 30rwtq differences I am pointing out (compared to etp215's and a 228 cam). Now is about where you go hide behind the cost differences. Some people would pay for the difference.
Get over it and hijack a different thread. This one had to do with idle quality on cams that get advanced. If you have a comment on that, then make it. Otherwise go push your favorite heads in a thread you create of your own.
As expected.
All because I didnt like L92's.
I mention it because it was a comparrison to the ETP results charlie posted. Go click on the link. I have the same cam. Charlie needed a cam with 10 degrees more duration and flycutting with the L92's to get the same results as that ETP215 and 228xer combo. Mine had losses comparable since it cant now break tires loose in 2nd.
And even if I dyno the before and after of switching back and the data shows a loss, I will be:
A-Insulted about engine knowledge or
B-Be accused of falsifying the results.
The one thing that isnt going to happen if I post 2 dyno sheets is you agreeing the results arent as good with L92's.
Either way, they dont work well on 6 liter engines as compared to the ETP215's with a 228/232 xer 114 as Charlie already showed. Go click on the link and stop ignoring the 30rwtq differences I am pointing out (compared to etp215's and a 228 cam). Now is about where you go hide behind the cost differences. Some people would pay for the difference.
Get over it and hijack a different thread. This one had to do with idle quality on cams that get advanced. If you have a comment on that, then make it. Otherwise go push your favorite heads in a thread you create of your own.
As expected.
All because I didnt like L92's.
"I differed in opinion on L92 heads and now after no changes but the heads themselves with a given cam, I have a slower car."
Then you posted:
"If there is one thing I learned from the L92 head swap which is to be undone this week: It is better to have 30 more TQ at 3500rpm than +20HP at 6000rpm. The L92's may look super inviting with hyped up top end power but if your car gives up 20-30rwtq at 2.8k-4k you will feel it. Missing 20hp up at peak is not readily noticed even by guys that actually take their cars up that high. Never dismiss the power under the curve and certainly dont get sold on hyped up peak rwhp numbers. The next time you are tooling around town and enjoying the power, look down at the tach and take note that the power you are feeling is 2500-4k where you do 90% of your driving. Advancing a cam can give that exact trade off.
Then you posted:
"I will still play with it before moving on. It sux to have dropped 1500 with a loss in the fun band of street torque. No other changes were made but the heads and intake over my heads and FAST. At least I can swap back for the cost of gaskets and valve stem oil seals. There is always the tune and I will do a speed density tune and advance timing with this low 11:1 compression.
High rpm is probably still the same or even better but the soft low end takes the fun out. Dont dismiss the dip you see on the happy dyno's sporting silly peak numbers. You will definitely feel a 20-30rwtq loss at 3500rpm."
Just looking for some clarification, that's all. And as usual, you react like a 12 year old.
Last edited by 90droptopp; Jun 3, 2007 at 04:43 PM.
any other cam/idle input?
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St. Jude Donor '06
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From: Objects in your mirror are losing , Long Island, NY
St. Jude Donor '08
You calling the man Bi polar.. And he should be banned? If the shoe fits
Anyway spinmonster has helped many here, one way or another, and never charges for services. What have you done lately? Stop the negative posts, this not First grade bickering. 
Threads like this can be very informative for someone like me, since I am due for a cam. So don't attempt to lock the thread. With ban this ban that..
Anyway spinmonster has helped many here, one way or another, and never charges for services. What have you done lately? Stop the negative posts, this not First grade bickering. Threads like this can be very informative for someone like me, since I am due for a cam. So don't attempt to lock the thread. With ban this ban that..
