SpinFast Mod Update: Glue Update
03-18-2009, 08:44 AM
#1
Tech Contributor
Thread Starter
SpinFast Mod Update: Glue Update
GLUE UPDATE
We will get to the glues but enjoy the read first.
L'Histoir:
It seems silly at this point to try to say, "For those not familiar with the FAST manifold...", but I have to. Years ago, Comp cams developed an LS1/LS6 intake manifold replacement for the cars sporting the LS enignes. The intake manifold by its very developement is somewhat discriminative against the C6 only since its use on any LS engine with cathedral shaped intake runners can use this intake manifold. My Hummer will accept it as a bolt on! However, much to the dismay of the C6 crowd, it doesnt fit our car without having to cut the firewall. I have heard horror stories of people on top of the engine bay with various home building tools trying to cut out a 4" by 3" section just under the windsheild to use this great bolt on mod. Stories of course spead quickly of shattered glass and 2nd rate looking patches to the firewall to get it to fit. There were companies selling pathetic looking patches designed to be the 'least worst' look to the firewall once this abomination is completed.
Then, in a sigh of releif you give up and stand back as if critically giving an opinion of some abstract art, you convince yourself that the cut 'isnt that bad' or 'it could be worse', when deep insode it was more like, "I shouldnt have done that". In the end it was done and you got your 20HP.
Some pioneering porters were seeing north of 25hp at peak and sick gains under the curve before long, as porters got better at what they did and then it came to a point where you realized this thing is as good as a set of headers and is essentially free HP. It comes without added cylinder pressures from boost. You didnt have to lean more on the valvetrain as with a silly lift cam, and best of all, it was a bolt on that most could put on themselves in a short afternoon.
Attitude With a Purpose:
Reapproaching the FAST, some tuners wouldnt stand for the MAP extention wires and wanted the MAP in the front like the Stock LS2 manifold (ok...drill a hole). The fuel rail didnt line up so there were fuel rail adapter kits (use washers...Andy at A&A said). There was also that firewall cut that some would do.
I know some tuners were still working with the manifold and credit has to be given for modding the back of the manifold to some tuners that I know for a fact did it before I did: LG motorsports for sure. I caught a cool TV show where they had a split second view of the back of the manifold and it had been cut and patched with a piece of sheet metal. I actually had a screen shot from the TV:
No one can say I dont look close.
Anyway, it worked and the fact that was proven meant that reinventing the wheel would result in a sucess. The hardest part of real R&D is first taking a chance on an idea that your arent sure works but I knew it did so that was 1/2 the battle. It had already been done.
Cameron, Welcome2Try here on the forum, asked me if the mod was worth doing and the guy is such a kewl friend and colorful personality (you have to love the guy for his funny stories and just being Cameron) said he would do anything for it. I said, "I wonder what people would pay for a FAST that actually fits without raping the car so I posted and asked everyone.....900-1000-1100-1200?"
Cameron Goes for It!
He buys a FAST and I post a DIY thread to share 100% of the results of the install with everyone. I had one on my car and modded it first but there was no way to tell if it actually fits the C6 because I first cut my firewall (cause I got the stones for that). I knew my FAST worked fine but did it fit a car without a cut firewall? I posted the pics and how to's and Cameron gets a disproportionate gain from the thing. I was shocked to say the least at how his car was pulling on cars with so much more power.
FAST Forward.....2009
OK Cameron's car blows up due to a timing chain failure. Now the very week I do the mod to the 80th manifold (JoeG's) Cameron sends me his FAST to get updated, the 2nd one done essentially. The porting is a lot better with all the manifolds I have done and it shows up. I open it and its 100% intact inside. Why is this a surprise? Well JoeG calls me up and says the graft on the back of his manifold developed a leak. Say wuh? Well here I have cameron's intake manifold sitting there with the same Goop glue used on Joe's and Cameron's looks like new and intact. Or was it the same? I had also used the red automotive version, I hate you:
Joe says his is like a jelly smear and not holding the graft in place. In the time I have done these intakes I have swapped to different Goop colors and the truth is I dont know which is used on Joe's. I have used orange and red. Red is pictured here and may be the culprit. It says AUTOMOTIVE which made me feel better about a household glue but it may be the issue. I picked up some on and off not thinking there was an issue.
ISSUE
So as some of you now, two more intake manifolds factually have an issue and one guy posts on it the other keeps it to himself (Siffert) thinking I will simply think he is bashing me. In a phone call I credit the issue and tell him that I will update the manifold to current porting and fix the graft on the back. In some cases where the automotive version of Goop was used, the different glue may be the issue. In any event its operating temps listed on the web site make me think the use of it needs to be rethought. I have so many people that checked and said they have no issue and i check manually on a few that come back at times. I never saw it go bad. Joe isnt a liar and neither are the other 2 affected to date. I dont know how many may have been affected so I have to rely of them checking.....and yes, I'm sorry for the inconvenience.
How To Tell if Your SpinFast is in Need of Repair
The tech side of it is to see in a scan if your car has a leak which shows as a rediculous spike in short term fuel trends. Two, is to remove the TB and see if there is a tear drop shape sagging sorry blob of glue in the back where the graft is. The graft on all my FAST's are held in place by a bolt at the rear most part of the manifold so it cant just fall off.
Now before you run around thinking everyone else does it better, I have gotten a load of FAST's sent to me by guys who used 2 part epoxies and they absolutely cracked. Here is a manifold that I had repair that was done by another tuner. I repaired it tonight to have some info for those that need one as to why this happened.
In these 3 pics you can clearly see where the 2 part expoxy has failed to hold the 2 part graft together and it developed a leak:
Chips on the stock rear bolt may be showing that it touches. I know for a fact that the stock bolt touches because its too tall with my graft in place when I tried to use it. Thats how close it is to the firewall. This one needs to be shaved down to fit.
2 part graft inside with expoxy at the joints:
This is the cut you make but with no graft glued on for reference:
I dont know who prepped the manifold and to be honest, I think it looks great. It had good porting as expected although not as far as other have gone but then you have to understand companies have to have a commercially viable product and cant spend 5 hours porting on a 200 dollar porting job.
Most 2 part expoxies are actually fairly pliable until they get heat cycled a few times then they become rock hard. Some are really strong and if used thick enough wont crack ever but the set times are really long on some of them.....6-15 hours instead of 4-5 minutes for the quick set ones. Longer curing times are part of the equation for strong epoxies. Temps are a big issue. Permatex 5 minute epoxy is rated to only 180degrees so as you see there are so many vaiables. I chose the glue I used because it worked on an air cleaner assembly I made for the C6 4 years ago. Some may recall this unit. It was entirely held together by purple goop and when I took it out after 2 years on my car, I had to break the plastic to get it in the garbage pail. Back then there were no air cleaner assemblies under 500 bucks for the C6. This was mine:
I looked at the local car stores and at Walmart once I ran out of time tonight. (thats right, while you sleep, I'm bothering Matilda in aisle 17 at 1am asking if she konws the safe ambient temps to run JB Weld). Well, after buying 7 different epoxies and later eliminating the ones that didnt check out on the internet, the only one I would find that can handle oil, fuel, high temps-500-600degrees F, high tensile strength and adhesion to plastics was JB Weld.
I had a laugh when the internet website said the only thing on a car not to use it on was a manifold......*&^#@*!!! Oh wait they meant exhaust manifolds because they can exceed 600 degrees F.The bad part about it is that its a 2 part that needs 6-15 hours to hold its shape. How can you have a profitable product to sell if it takes you 2 days to get a part to glue on? I looked at the JB Kwik set but everything was 1/2 to 1/3 for the stats on the glue. Temps fell to 300 degrees. Not so bad. Strength was way more brittle---not good on a vibrating engine. Resistence to petroleum products was gone on the packaging and from the website description so I couldnt use it. Deal with it.
JB Weld It Is
How strong is it?
OK, Here is a apicture of the actual cut away part I cut from the back of the FAST JB Welded to a strip of the actual plastic from the graft I use. These two parts arent just like the material being used on the FAST....they ARE the materials used....I JB Welded them 22 hours prior to this pic being taken and the instructions say full strength is after 24 hours:
I screwed it to the sheving on my wall in the garage:
I attached a chain and clip through the hole on the FAST plastic JB Welded to the strip of the graft plast scrwwed to my shelving. Anyone see where this is going yet???
I attached a little 45 lb weight to the chain total of 50lbs:
The glued assembly under stress twisting the plastic but not letting go:
HAHA, any questions?
Ok now its established I will use this but to make it work it cant have a seam or it compromises the seal. To keep it from cracking, it has to be thick enough. To keep it from running you have to keep moving it around or make a mould....or be strategic in its application letting the excess drip down off the manifold cover.
Trick 1: Let it sit for 20 miutes before you even think of applying it. Its really drippy for this time period so let it sit. Trust me it isnt going to affect its spreadablity.
Trick 2: Dont get mad that it wont stay where you want it. Let it flow and watch how it flows so you can use this to your advantage.
Trick 3: Let it sit and drip what it wants downward away from the manifold.
JB welded here. If you look close on the above inside shot of the graft, although its hard to see, I dug a channel out with the dremmel between the outside of the manifold and the graft to give the JBweld a ledge to grab onto. As seen here, the entire application of the epoxy is spread over the entire surface so its all one piece and wont come lose because of the ledge I channeled out and also because of its thickness. The entire surface where the JB will touch is roughed up with a dremel sanding drum. Keep in mind that using JB weld wont hold the graft intiailly. Its best to tack it in place with crazy glue (a drop in 2 places), then go to town with JB. The idea is to have a graft that holds together without letting the JB weld drip through. When you try, you will see why I resisted when people suggested its use. Its tricky but its workable and I feel 100% confident about the result.
Initially I was to use a brace of plastic inside but it would be something that could come loose it self should something fail. The way the graft works now is that the JB weld is all one piece inside and glued onto a piece outside that cant fit into the hole its covering. The inside brace would have needed a bolt through thew two of them and I didnt like the idea of another hole that could leak or a nut (even with lock-tite) that the motor could ingest. I liked the idea of a soft epoxy/glue because it cant harm a motor if its ingested but the best thing is to just not have things to come loose.
The Finsihed Repair:
The entire surface has been covered with JB Weld and its bigger than the hole it covers. Once cured (the obsticle) it works fine resists temps to 600 degrees and is immune to oil, gas, and my wrath.
Porting Points (free pointers while I'm in here)
This manifold was sent to me for repair only but some porting that made serious gains for me is pictured here. I hope people see that I am just sharing and not all about sales here. For the DIY'er this works fine. Just remember to remove as little as possible. In these pics I am evening out the transitions between the various plastic joints that can be felt in the runners. These pics are of rough cuts before I go to smoother paper rolls and ultimately to high speed buffing to make is super smooth.
Basically if you can feel the transition with your finger in the runner its a disruption but you have to weigh that against the possibility of enlarging the runner that the entrance to the head becomes a wall for the air to hit if its bigger than the head's runner opening. Aftermarket heads have a serious advantage here such as a AFR head that allows the runner to be opened about 1/16th of an inch. Trust me, thats a lot.
This manifold was sent to me for repair. It was originally installed without using the small button valley bolts and thats a no-no. Here you see how it cracked the bottom panel and the bottom side shows the hex indentation from the stock (tall) valley bolts that caused the cracks. the cracks are huge inside and I sanded tham to have adhesion to the JB weld and to show the cracks easily for the camera:
Here you see the JB weld over the cracks on the roughed surface for a strong repair. This will get sanded smooth for airflow and resealed for shipment tomorrow:
A quick point to make about sealing this manifold. You have to. The above gasket around the perimeter clearly shows this manifold was simply bolted back together. Back in the C5 days this thing leaked more air than my ex-girlfriend's mother. It has to be sealed with a bead of RTV. The stock gasket is actualy Permatex orange RTV and it smells bad. The copper one is a sensor safe version if you cant take the smell. Its a whopping extra 5 bucks and its 5 minutes....you have to do it. The DIY'er should be willing to take the extra time.
This porting marathon at 3am was for free becaused this guy used me for his repair. I'm sure he will be happy with the results and he is officially the first guy in possession of a SpinFast version 2. Steve...take a bow.
Anyone affected by the Goop swap, please contact me for a solution to your particular situation. I can do this repair fairly quick but it has to be overnight. The difficulty of working with JB Weld is why I never considered it in the first palce. It made all manifolds a 2 day project and thats not a 299 dollar job although, I'm not raising the price.
I will stand by the work but ask for compassion with the situation. Those that know me will tell you this wasnt all about money. My pricing reflected that in that I chaged less for this than most charged just for porting. I admit fault and will do what has to be done to rectify the situation so dont think the screen name will be abandoned and phones disconnected. I once said in defence of many other tuners that all tuners make mistakes and they should be judged by the way they conduct the solution to the problem. I'm here after a long night in the garage to come up with an immediate thread and answer to this issue. I'm exhausted and ready for your punishment: By the way....this is me after 15 hours of this issue. I thought some would want to put a face to the screen name.
Craigster05: thanks for your help with this issue and all the other ones you're there for. A true member of my family.
We will get to the glues but enjoy the read first.
L'Histoir:
It seems silly at this point to try to say, "For those not familiar with the FAST manifold...", but I have to. Years ago, Comp cams developed an LS1/LS6 intake manifold replacement for the cars sporting the LS enignes. The intake manifold by its very developement is somewhat discriminative against the C6 only since its use on any LS engine with cathedral shaped intake runners can use this intake manifold. My Hummer will accept it as a bolt on! However, much to the dismay of the C6 crowd, it doesnt fit our car without having to cut the firewall. I have heard horror stories of people on top of the engine bay with various home building tools trying to cut out a 4" by 3" section just under the windsheild to use this great bolt on mod. Stories of course spead quickly of shattered glass and 2nd rate looking patches to the firewall to get it to fit. There were companies selling pathetic looking patches designed to be the 'least worst' look to the firewall once this abomination is completed.
Then, in a sigh of releif you give up and stand back as if critically giving an opinion of some abstract art, you convince yourself that the cut 'isnt that bad' or 'it could be worse', when deep insode it was more like, "I shouldnt have done that". In the end it was done and you got your 20HP.
Some pioneering porters were seeing north of 25hp at peak and sick gains under the curve before long, as porters got better at what they did and then it came to a point where you realized this thing is as good as a set of headers and is essentially free HP. It comes without added cylinder pressures from boost. You didnt have to lean more on the valvetrain as with a silly lift cam, and best of all, it was a bolt on that most could put on themselves in a short afternoon.
Attitude With a Purpose:
Reapproaching the FAST, some tuners wouldnt stand for the MAP extention wires and wanted the MAP in the front like the Stock LS2 manifold (ok...drill a hole). The fuel rail didnt line up so there were fuel rail adapter kits (use washers...Andy at A&A said). There was also that firewall cut that some would do.
I know some tuners were still working with the manifold and credit has to be given for modding the back of the manifold to some tuners that I know for a fact did it before I did: LG motorsports for sure. I caught a cool TV show where they had a split second view of the back of the manifold and it had been cut and patched with a piece of sheet metal. I actually had a screen shot from the TV:
No one can say I dont look close.
Anyway, it worked and the fact that was proven meant that reinventing the wheel would result in a sucess. The hardest part of real R&D is first taking a chance on an idea that your arent sure works but I knew it did so that was 1/2 the battle. It had already been done.
Cameron, Welcome2Try here on the forum, asked me if the mod was worth doing and the guy is such a kewl friend and colorful personality (you have to love the guy for his funny stories and just being Cameron) said he would do anything for it. I said, "I wonder what people would pay for a FAST that actually fits without raping the car so I posted and asked everyone.....900-1000-1100-1200?"
Cameron Goes for It!
He buys a FAST and I post a DIY thread to share 100% of the results of the install with everyone. I had one on my car and modded it first but there was no way to tell if it actually fits the C6 because I first cut my firewall (cause I got the stones for that). I knew my FAST worked fine but did it fit a car without a cut firewall? I posted the pics and how to's and Cameron gets a disproportionate gain from the thing. I was shocked to say the least at how his car was pulling on cars with so much more power.
FAST Forward.....2009
OK Cameron's car blows up due to a timing chain failure. Now the very week I do the mod to the 80th manifold (JoeG's) Cameron sends me his FAST to get updated, the 2nd one done essentially. The porting is a lot better with all the manifolds I have done and it shows up. I open it and its 100% intact inside. Why is this a surprise? Well JoeG calls me up and says the graft on the back of his manifold developed a leak. Say wuh? Well here I have cameron's intake manifold sitting there with the same Goop glue used on Joe's and Cameron's looks like new and intact. Or was it the same? I had also used the red automotive version, I hate you:
Joe says his is like a jelly smear and not holding the graft in place. In the time I have done these intakes I have swapped to different Goop colors and the truth is I dont know which is used on Joe's. I have used orange and red. Red is pictured here and may be the culprit. It says AUTOMOTIVE which made me feel better about a household glue but it may be the issue. I picked up some on and off not thinking there was an issue.
ISSUE
So as some of you now, two more intake manifolds factually have an issue and one guy posts on it the other keeps it to himself (Siffert) thinking I will simply think he is bashing me. In a phone call I credit the issue and tell him that I will update the manifold to current porting and fix the graft on the back. In some cases where the automotive version of Goop was used, the different glue may be the issue. In any event its operating temps listed on the web site make me think the use of it needs to be rethought. I have so many people that checked and said they have no issue and i check manually on a few that come back at times. I never saw it go bad. Joe isnt a liar and neither are the other 2 affected to date. I dont know how many may have been affected so I have to rely of them checking.....and yes, I'm sorry for the inconvenience.
How To Tell if Your SpinFast is in Need of Repair
The tech side of it is to see in a scan if your car has a leak which shows as a rediculous spike in short term fuel trends. Two, is to remove the TB and see if there is a tear drop shape sagging sorry blob of glue in the back where the graft is. The graft on all my FAST's are held in place by a bolt at the rear most part of the manifold so it cant just fall off.
Now before you run around thinking everyone else does it better, I have gotten a load of FAST's sent to me by guys who used 2 part epoxies and they absolutely cracked. Here is a manifold that I had repair that was done by another tuner. I repaired it tonight to have some info for those that need one as to why this happened.
In these 3 pics you can clearly see where the 2 part expoxy has failed to hold the 2 part graft together and it developed a leak:
Chips on the stock rear bolt may be showing that it touches. I know for a fact that the stock bolt touches because its too tall with my graft in place when I tried to use it. Thats how close it is to the firewall. This one needs to be shaved down to fit.
2 part graft inside with expoxy at the joints:
This is the cut you make but with no graft glued on for reference:
I dont know who prepped the manifold and to be honest, I think it looks great. It had good porting as expected although not as far as other have gone but then you have to understand companies have to have a commercially viable product and cant spend 5 hours porting on a 200 dollar porting job.
Most 2 part expoxies are actually fairly pliable until they get heat cycled a few times then they become rock hard. Some are really strong and if used thick enough wont crack ever but the set times are really long on some of them.....6-15 hours instead of 4-5 minutes for the quick set ones. Longer curing times are part of the equation for strong epoxies. Temps are a big issue. Permatex 5 minute epoxy is rated to only 180degrees so as you see there are so many vaiables. I chose the glue I used because it worked on an air cleaner assembly I made for the C6 4 years ago. Some may recall this unit. It was entirely held together by purple goop and when I took it out after 2 years on my car, I had to break the plastic to get it in the garbage pail. Back then there were no air cleaner assemblies under 500 bucks for the C6. This was mine:
I looked at the local car stores and at Walmart once I ran out of time tonight. (thats right, while you sleep, I'm bothering Matilda in aisle 17 at 1am asking if she konws the safe ambient temps to run JB Weld). Well, after buying 7 different epoxies and later eliminating the ones that didnt check out on the internet, the only one I would find that can handle oil, fuel, high temps-500-600degrees F, high tensile strength and adhesion to plastics was JB Weld.
I had a laugh when the internet website said the only thing on a car not to use it on was a manifold......*&^#@*!!! Oh wait they meant exhaust manifolds because they can exceed 600 degrees F.The bad part about it is that its a 2 part that needs 6-15 hours to hold its shape. How can you have a profitable product to sell if it takes you 2 days to get a part to glue on? I looked at the JB Kwik set but everything was 1/2 to 1/3 for the stats on the glue. Temps fell to 300 degrees. Not so bad. Strength was way more brittle---not good on a vibrating engine. Resistence to petroleum products was gone on the packaging and from the website description so I couldnt use it. Deal with it.
JB Weld It Is
How strong is it?
OK, Here is a apicture of the actual cut away part I cut from the back of the FAST JB Welded to a strip of the actual plastic from the graft I use. These two parts arent just like the material being used on the FAST....they ARE the materials used....I JB Welded them 22 hours prior to this pic being taken and the instructions say full strength is after 24 hours:
I screwed it to the sheving on my wall in the garage:
I attached a chain and clip through the hole on the FAST plastic JB Welded to the strip of the graft plast scrwwed to my shelving. Anyone see where this is going yet???
I attached a little 45 lb weight to the chain total of 50lbs:
The glued assembly under stress twisting the plastic but not letting go:
HAHA, any questions?
Ok now its established I will use this but to make it work it cant have a seam or it compromises the seal. To keep it from cracking, it has to be thick enough. To keep it from running you have to keep moving it around or make a mould....or be strategic in its application letting the excess drip down off the manifold cover.
Trick 1: Let it sit for 20 miutes before you even think of applying it. Its really drippy for this time period so let it sit. Trust me it isnt going to affect its spreadablity.
Trick 2: Dont get mad that it wont stay where you want it. Let it flow and watch how it flows so you can use this to your advantage.
Trick 3: Let it sit and drip what it wants downward away from the manifold.
JB welded here. If you look close on the above inside shot of the graft, although its hard to see, I dug a channel out with the dremmel between the outside of the manifold and the graft to give the JBweld a ledge to grab onto. As seen here, the entire application of the epoxy is spread over the entire surface so its all one piece and wont come lose because of the ledge I channeled out and also because of its thickness. The entire surface where the JB will touch is roughed up with a dremel sanding drum. Keep in mind that using JB weld wont hold the graft intiailly. Its best to tack it in place with crazy glue (a drop in 2 places), then go to town with JB. The idea is to have a graft that holds together without letting the JB weld drip through. When you try, you will see why I resisted when people suggested its use. Its tricky but its workable and I feel 100% confident about the result.
Initially I was to use a brace of plastic inside but it would be something that could come loose it self should something fail. The way the graft works now is that the JB weld is all one piece inside and glued onto a piece outside that cant fit into the hole its covering. The inside brace would have needed a bolt through thew two of them and I didnt like the idea of another hole that could leak or a nut (even with lock-tite) that the motor could ingest. I liked the idea of a soft epoxy/glue because it cant harm a motor if its ingested but the best thing is to just not have things to come loose.
The Finsihed Repair:
The entire surface has been covered with JB Weld and its bigger than the hole it covers. Once cured (the obsticle) it works fine resists temps to 600 degrees and is immune to oil, gas, and my wrath.
Porting Points (free pointers while I'm in here)
This manifold was sent to me for repair only but some porting that made serious gains for me is pictured here. I hope people see that I am just sharing and not all about sales here. For the DIY'er this works fine. Just remember to remove as little as possible. In these pics I am evening out the transitions between the various plastic joints that can be felt in the runners. These pics are of rough cuts before I go to smoother paper rolls and ultimately to high speed buffing to make is super smooth.
Basically if you can feel the transition with your finger in the runner its a disruption but you have to weigh that against the possibility of enlarging the runner that the entrance to the head becomes a wall for the air to hit if its bigger than the head's runner opening. Aftermarket heads have a serious advantage here such as a AFR head that allows the runner to be opened about 1/16th of an inch. Trust me, thats a lot.
This manifold was sent to me for repair. It was originally installed without using the small button valley bolts and thats a no-no. Here you see how it cracked the bottom panel and the bottom side shows the hex indentation from the stock (tall) valley bolts that caused the cracks. the cracks are huge inside and I sanded tham to have adhesion to the JB weld and to show the cracks easily for the camera:
Here you see the JB weld over the cracks on the roughed surface for a strong repair. This will get sanded smooth for airflow and resealed for shipment tomorrow:
A quick point to make about sealing this manifold. You have to. The above gasket around the perimeter clearly shows this manifold was simply bolted back together. Back in the C5 days this thing leaked more air than my ex-girlfriend's mother. It has to be sealed with a bead of RTV. The stock gasket is actualy Permatex orange RTV and it smells bad. The copper one is a sensor safe version if you cant take the smell. Its a whopping extra 5 bucks and its 5 minutes....you have to do it. The DIY'er should be willing to take the extra time.
This porting marathon at 3am was for free becaused this guy used me for his repair. I'm sure he will be happy with the results and he is officially the first guy in possession of a SpinFast version 2. Steve...take a bow.
Anyone affected by the Goop swap, please contact me for a solution to your particular situation. I can do this repair fairly quick but it has to be overnight. The difficulty of working with JB Weld is why I never considered it in the first palce. It made all manifolds a 2 day project and thats not a 299 dollar job although, I'm not raising the price.
I will stand by the work but ask for compassion with the situation. Those that know me will tell you this wasnt all about money. My pricing reflected that in that I chaged less for this than most charged just for porting. I admit fault and will do what has to be done to rectify the situation so dont think the screen name will be abandoned and phones disconnected. I once said in defence of many other tuners that all tuners make mistakes and they should be judged by the way they conduct the solution to the problem. I'm here after a long night in the garage to come up with an immediate thread and answer to this issue. I'm exhausted and ready for your punishment: By the way....this is me after 15 hours of this issue. I thought some would want to put a face to the screen name.
Craigster05: thanks for your help with this issue and all the other ones you're there for. A true member of my family.
Last edited by SpinMonster; 03-19-2009 at 05:22 AM.
03-18-2009, 09:10 AM
#2
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Location: Makena, Maui & NM
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Good move switching to JB Weld, as according to the Goop web site tech specs, NO Goop adhesive (no matter what color of tube) is impervious to motor oil. Only a few Goop epoxies are. I am surprised you never bothered checking the specs of goop before using it.
I think it should also be stated that if there is a vacuum leak it is a idle/part throttle issue which the computer attemps to cure by boosting the fuel, and maybe even a CEL PO171 & PO174 since you are running lean. Thus another sign of this is heavier than normal (fuel rich) soot on your exhaust tips and perhaps a bit of rough idle (for stock cams). This issue does not affect WOT.
You can test for this with a smoke machine too at a Garage-if there is a leak coming from the rear mod of the Fast manifold, that is the problem. Or if you have an HP Tuner or near your own tuner, scan your idle every once in awhile for a few minutes. If the STFT is in the range of 20-60, then for sure you got a vacuum leak and contact Spin for a re-do.
Finally, we see that the spin avatar actually has a head!
...you handsome devil, you! 
I think it should also be stated that if there is a vacuum leak it is a idle/part throttle issue which the computer attemps to cure by boosting the fuel, and maybe even a CEL PO171 & PO174 since you are running lean. Thus another sign of this is heavier than normal (fuel rich) soot on your exhaust tips and perhaps a bit of rough idle (for stock cams). This issue does not affect WOT.
You can test for this with a smoke machine too at a Garage-if there is a leak coming from the rear mod of the Fast manifold, that is the problem. Or if you have an HP Tuner or near your own tuner, scan your idle every once in awhile for a few minutes. If the STFT is in the range of 20-60, then for sure you got a vacuum leak and contact Spin for a re-do.
Finally, we see that the spin avatar actually has a head!
...you handsome devil, you!
Last edited by siffert; 04-29-2009 at 04:56 PM.
03-18-2009, 09:58 AM
#4
Safety Car
If anyone needs help in the LI area checking this or replacing a repaired manifold from Guy, let me know.
03-18-2009, 11:28 AM
#5
Racer
Member Since: Mar 2007
Location: Quaker City Ohio
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Thanks a bunch Spin. I appreciate the devotion you've given to my manifold out of sincere concern.
When I was installing the manifold (which was used and modded by a performace shop)I was a little anxious about the outcome. Then when it cracked I was really irritated to say the least. I had read about the Fast manifolds and knew that there was some mods that had to be done to make them fit a LS2, but, I was very dissapointed when the application turned out to be this fragile. I mean, how reliable can it be? I don't want to be 500 miles from home and develope a problem like this. I posted my problem on the forum and Spin was quick to respond. He defended the Fast and explained how it must be done correctly. I did some research and was very much impressed by Spins expertise and experience. Thats how it came to be that Spin is repairing my intake in the thread and I'm impressed with his thread and my confidence in the Fast is once more restored. Thanks to a long day from Spin. Once again I give you a sincere thanks for helping me with this problem. Steve
When I was installing the manifold (which was used and modded by a performace shop)I was a little anxious about the outcome. Then when it cracked I was really irritated to say the least. I had read about the Fast manifolds and knew that there was some mods that had to be done to make them fit a LS2, but, I was very dissapointed when the application turned out to be this fragile. I mean, how reliable can it be? I don't want to be 500 miles from home and develope a problem like this. I posted my problem on the forum and Spin was quick to respond. He defended the Fast and explained how it must be done correctly. I did some research and was very much impressed by Spins expertise and experience. Thats how it came to be that Spin is repairing my intake in the thread and I'm impressed with his thread and my confidence in the Fast is once more restored. Thanks to a long day from Spin. Once again I give you a sincere thanks for helping me with this problem. Steve
03-18-2009, 12:31 PM
#7
Race Director
Great writeup and, as pictured, a standup Guy! 
03-18-2009, 12:33 PM
#8
Burning Brakes
Hey CF members I'm quite concerned about Spin. I think he contracted some serious disease, he's all puffy and blown up like a balloon I'm worried I hope he gets to a doctor soon.... could it be he has.... dare I say it.....SPINMODITIS.
A deadly (to your wallet) disease where you are compelled to mod your Vette forever. Get well Spin !!! jeez I kill myself
seriously Thank you Spin for being a stand up guy and acknowledging a possible issue with your mod and offering it's repair.
A deadly (to your wallet) disease where you are compelled to mod your Vette forever. Get well Spin !!! jeez I kill myself seriously Thank you Spin for being a stand up guy and acknowledging a possible issue with your mod and offering it's repair.
03-18-2009, 08:06 PM
#11
Melting Slicks
You are a stand up Guy!!!
Sh** Happens, the fact that you took responsibility for the misshap says a lot about what kind of person
you are!!!!!
I'm proud to know you!!!!
Phil
Sh** Happens, the fact that you took responsibility for the misshap says a lot about what kind of person
you are!!!!!
I'm proud to know you!!!!
Phil
Last edited by pmj341; 03-18-2009 at 08:16 PM.
03-18-2009, 08:23 PM
#12
Burning Brakes
SpinMonster, good write-up! Before I became a forum member in 07, I actually modified my FAST myself and did the exact same things you did except the back part toward the firewall; using my Dremel I cut the whole thing off.....I know, stupid, but I redesigned the "lip" for its replacement and it has worked so far, whew. I didn't do any porting on it until much later when Craigster05 actually informed me the specific areas to grind down; and again, using my Dremel and hand-sanding, it has worked ever since, thank you sir!
Oh also, SpinMonster, thank you for telling me how to get the rack and pinion steering out of the way to replace the crank pulley with an underdrive.....I haven't done it, yet, but probably will in the next few weeks as I'm going to replace the OEM rockers with 1.85:1 roller rockers at the same time (so I can adjust the valves by manually rotating the crank with the steering out of the way), anyway, thanks to you too, sir!
Oh also, SpinMonster, thank you for telling me how to get the rack and pinion steering out of the way to replace the crank pulley with an underdrive.....I haven't done it, yet, but probably will in the next few weeks as I'm going to replace the OEM rockers with 1.85:1 roller rockers at the same time (so I can adjust the valves by manually rotating the crank with the steering out of the way), anyway, thanks to you too, sir!
Last edited by HuskerBullet; 03-18-2009 at 08:41 PM.
03-18-2009, 08:38 PM
#13
Tech Contributor
Thread Starter
Thanks a bunch Spin. I appreciate the devotion you've given to my manifold out of sincere concern.
When I was installing the manifold (which was used and modded by a performace shop)I was a little anxious about the outcome. Then when it cracked I was really irritated to say the least. I had read about the Fast manifolds and knew that there was some mods that had to be done to make them fit a LS2, but, I was very dissapointed when the application turned out to be this fragile. I mean, how reliable can it be? I don't want to be 500 miles from home and develope a problem like this. I posted my problem on the forum and Spin was quick to respond. He defended the Fast and explained how it must be done correctly. I did some research and was very much impressed by Spins expertise and experience. Thats how it came to be that Spin is repairing my intake in the thread and I'm impressed with his thread and my confidence in the Fast is once more restored. Thanks to a long day from Spin. Once again I give you a sincere thanks for helping me with this problem. Steve
When I was installing the manifold (which was used and modded by a performace shop)I was a little anxious about the outcome. Then when it cracked I was really irritated to say the least. I had read about the Fast manifolds and knew that there was some mods that had to be done to make them fit a LS2, but, I was very dissapointed when the application turned out to be this fragile. I mean, how reliable can it be? I don't want to be 500 miles from home and develope a problem like this. I posted my problem on the forum and Spin was quick to respond. He defended the Fast and explained how it must be done correctly. I did some research and was very much impressed by Spins expertise and experience. Thats how it came to be that Spin is repairing my intake in the thread and I'm impressed with his thread and my confidence in the Fast is once more restored. Thanks to a long day from Spin. Once again I give you a sincere thanks for helping me with this problem. Steve
I will need your manifold for one more day. There were cracks on the bottom panel that were 100% the result of not having used the button bolts they give you with the manifold when you buy it. The valley cover has hex bolts that left hex shapes on the bottom cover. I roughed these up and need 24 hours for that to cure before I can snad it down and reassemble so i expect it to go out tomorrow night at fed-ex. You should have it by Tuesday for install. The porting was significant so maybe it will be a felt bump in peroformance and not just a repair.
Last edited by SpinMonster; 03-18-2009 at 09:57 PM.
03-18-2009, 08:40 PM
#14
Tech Contributor
Thread Starter
03-18-2009, 08:46 PM
#15
Tech Contributor
Thread Starter
I'd swap it out for the JB weld. It 4 bucks. You can just send it to me and I will do the fix for you.
Last edited by SpinMonster; 03-18-2009 at 09:04 PM.
03-18-2009, 11:17 PM
#16
Burning Brakes
Member Since: Jul 2006
Location: Sulphur LA
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I have seen a plastic welding machine used before (not on a fast manifold) and if they will work on the fast polymer then it would be an ideal solution. I don't know if you've looked into this technology or not but it is available. Just google "plastic welder".
From your explanation, it seems that only a couple out of the hundred+ manifolds you have modded have cracked. Would you say that it isn't too much of a gamble to run the intake as is--with the idea of being on the lookout for symptoms of a leak?? I am thinking about installing mine for the weekend--since it will be the last cool weather here untill november--and seeing if I can get the car into the 11's. Then, when I have time I might either send it back or fix it myself.
I am also confused about your business.....i have been dealing with someone called Jay, and not sure what his affiliation is with you.
BTW, I think you posted that shirtless pic of yourself to ward off any aggressive/agitated customers......
Bryan
From your explanation, it seems that only a couple out of the hundred+ manifolds you have modded have cracked. Would you say that it isn't too much of a gamble to run the intake as is--with the idea of being on the lookout for symptoms of a leak?? I am thinking about installing mine for the weekend--since it will be the last cool weather here untill november--and seeing if I can get the car into the 11's. Then, when I have time I might either send it back or fix it myself.
I am also confused about your business.....i have been dealing with someone called Jay, and not sure what his affiliation is with you.
BTW, I think you posted that shirtless pic of yourself to ward off any aggressive/agitated customers......
Bryan
03-18-2009, 11:19 PM
#17
Melting Slicks
Member Since: Nov 2005
Location: Houston 06 C6 Ysi SC 402 fgd TX
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The Goop glue has a min temp of 150 and in such an industry there will be highs and lows when a buyer gets chemicals for a product. Sometimes its going to hold 185 degrees and sometimes 205 and sometimes 160. The outside of the manifold isnt getting to 150 back there so its likely you wont have an issue since there is some outside doing the seal. If you send it to me the fix is free or you can do the entire fix there following my next thread this Friday. This next thread will take an incomming manifold with heat damaged and oil contaminated Goop and will show all that is needed to do the fix start to finish.
I'd swap it out for the JB weld. It 4 bucks. You can just send it to me and I will do the fix for you.
I'd swap it out for the JB weld. It 4 bucks. You can just send it to me and I will do the fix for you.
Last edited by drivinfast; 03-19-2009 at 12:27 AM.
03-19-2009, 04:26 AM
#19
Tech Contributor
Thread Starter
I have seen a plastic welding machine used before (not on a fast manifold) and if they will work on the fast polymer then it would be an ideal solution. I don't know if you've looked into this technology or not but it is available. Just google "plastic welder".
From your explanation, it seems that only a couple out of the hundred+ manifolds you have modded have cracked. Would you say that it isn't too much of a gamble to run the intake as is--with the idea of being on the lookout for symptoms of a leak?? I am thinking about installing mine for the weekend--since it will be the last cool weather here untill november--and seeing if I can get the car into the 11's. Then, when I have time I might either send it back or fix it myself.
I am also confused about your business.....i have been dealing with someone called Jay, and not sure what his affiliation is with you.
BTW, I think you posted that shirtless pic of yourself to ward off any aggressive/agitated customers......
Bryan
From your explanation, it seems that only a couple out of the hundred+ manifolds you have modded have cracked. Would you say that it isn't too much of a gamble to run the intake as is--with the idea of being on the lookout for symptoms of a leak?? I am thinking about installing mine for the weekend--since it will be the last cool weather here untill november--and seeing if I can get the car into the 11's. Then, when I have time I might either send it back or fix it myself.
I am also confused about your business.....i have been dealing with someone called Jay, and not sure what his affiliation is with you.
BTW, I think you posted that shirtless pic of yourself to ward off any aggressive/agitated customers......
Bryan
OK, Here is a apicture of the actual cut away part I cut from the back of the FAST JB Welded to a strip of the actual plastic from the graft I use. These two parts arent just like the material being used on the FAST....they ARE the materials used....I JB Welded them 22 hours prior to this pic being taken and the instructions say full strength is after 24 hours. The surface area glued is about the size of a dime:
I screwed it to the sheving on my wall in the garage:
I attached a chain and clip through the hole on the FAST plastic JB Welded to the strip of the graft plastic screwed to my shelving. Anyone see where this is going yet???
I attached a little 45 lb weight to the chain total of 50lbs:
The glued assembly under stress twisting the plastic but not letting go:
HAHA, any questions?
Because I have that type of aggressive personality, I wanted to test the limits so I went over to it and was going to hang on it (yes I weigh about 225-230lbs) and I was going to climb up but the shelf was starting to make the stretchy give out sound so I resisted the limit test. I know for a fact I was putting 100lbs force on it before I gave up.....it didnt break. Yes this material can resist any amount of boost in your manifold from FI.
Nothing changes on my end if you run the intake and then you deciding later that you want me to fit it. There difference is a little oil/fuel smell for me but i clean them before and after working on them. If it doesnt work out, send it here. Installing a FAST is an hour and I do it even faster than that so it wouldnt matter to me. I would think you would want this material in your manifold. It specifically is designed for use on petrolium exposed arenas and is rated to 600 degrees. Why not do it now and get it over with. I want you driving around with the best of the best in there.
The issue to others may be installing it and paying for a tune and then getting a leak. If you have to pay for it to be installed then send it here first. Send the TB for a free porting too.
Anyone in my neck of the woods or wanting to fly me in, tunes are free as are anything else of simple wrenching under the hood. Long ago there was never any money involved with my services until someone said i was tapping the advertising base of forum tuners so I had to be a supporting tuner. That involves money. I was all about free services and getting people to donate to St Judes with no transaction to me. Now its costs money to do free things and most people said they would donate but never did. Anyway, pay the plane ticket and a place to stay and i will make your car faster.....for free. I dont need a job and this is not a business I am running. To make a profit on these manifolds with welding processes would not be feasible for less than 450 per manifold. Its why so few tuners even bother with the service. This is a minor issue and there will be no issue with any manifold that leaves here now. JB Weld IS a solution and its not second best. As far as I'm concerned the issue is fixed.
I will fix every manifold at a loss if it comes to that but the issue is a simple fix and most people see there is nothing in the realm of possibility that wont make me step up here. Its easy, send it here and for 4 bucks and my time, its fixed....end of story. No part on your car will last as long as I will keep this thing working for you.....for free. I will always be here to answer PM's or phone calls and wont close up shop like skeevy sleazes that are only about money and eventually close up their gas station fly by night operation when they lose money. You got a bargain choosing me if you did.
Bryan, I'm not running a business. I am just a hobbyist in the garage that is honest. I see people mess up a project and I go help for free. Craigster05 and Aintqik do the exact same thing. We lose money on these things but it feels good. I met Aintqik when he couldnt get his car to idle after an agressive cam install. He lived 130 miles away from me and I drove there with my HPtuners to get him going. I didnt know him. Craigster05 I met in a parking lot full of car enthusiasts and after knowing him for all of 20 minutes I told him I would help him do a H/C swap. Who would have known, later that year near his B'day, his girl paid for the parts as a gift and I did a free H/C install on his car. Both of these guys have reciprocated 100x. They would do it for a stranger and they do.
Last edited by SpinMonster; 03-19-2009 at 05:47 AM.
03-19-2009, 05:24 AM
#20
Tech Contributor
Thread Starter
More work for the same manifold.
As you know, this manifold was sent to me for repair. It was originally installed without using the small button valley bolts and thats a no-no.
Here you see how it cracked the bottom panel and the bottom side shows the hex indentation from the stock (tall) valley bolts that caused the cracks. The cracks are huge inside and I sanded them (80 grit) to have adhesion to the JB weld which shows the cracks easily for the camera:
Here you see the JB weld over the cracks on the roughed surface for a strong repair. This will get sanded smooth for airflow and resealed for shipment tomorrow:
When he first contacted me he was concerned how much it would cost with all the damage and I explained that there was nothing in there I couldnt fix and I agreed to cap the total repair costs to 175 with return shipping. Excluding R&D for adhesives, it took 4.3 hours actual work to fix the unit.....bargain? He is fully ported, repaired the leaks in the back and repaired all the cracks on the bottom with a proven adhesive and resealed around the perimeter. This unit is 100%. In all honesty, he didnt ask or expect the porting which was 1/2 the work. Its no fun paying for repairs to get your car back with no performance gains. Now he has both so consider it a gift. I realize I'm not a good business guy and will never make money doing free things.
I had fun doing the repair too.
A donation will be made to St Judes the end of the week from the proceeds.
As you know, this manifold was sent to me for repair. It was originally installed without using the small button valley bolts and thats a no-no.
Here you see how it cracked the bottom panel and the bottom side shows the hex indentation from the stock (tall) valley bolts that caused the cracks. The cracks are huge inside and I sanded them (80 grit) to have adhesion to the JB weld which shows the cracks easily for the camera:
Here you see the JB weld over the cracks on the roughed surface for a strong repair. This will get sanded smooth for airflow and resealed for shipment tomorrow:
When he first contacted me he was concerned how much it would cost with all the damage and I explained that there was nothing in there I couldnt fix and I agreed to cap the total repair costs to 175 with return shipping. Excluding R&D for adhesives, it took 4.3 hours actual work to fix the unit.....bargain? He is fully ported, repaired the leaks in the back and repaired all the cracks on the bottom with a proven adhesive and resealed around the perimeter. This unit is 100%. In all honesty, he didnt ask or expect the porting which was 1/2 the work. Its no fun paying for repairs to get your car back with no performance gains. Now he has both so consider it a gift. I realize I'm not a good business guy and will never make money doing free things.
I had fun doing the repair too.
A donation will be made to St Judes the end of the week from the proceeds.
Last edited by SpinMonster; 03-19-2009 at 06:24 AM.