Ahhhhh, I'm succumbing!! I'm a Euro guy through and through, and currently track an 06 VW GTI, quite modded, in the advanced groups at HPDEs (I'll be instructing by next year). My car has got 65,000 on it, and while it's been rock solid, quite fast, and very easy to drive at the limit, stuff is starting to rear it's ugly head. So, maybe I can get the rest of this year and next year out of it (crosses fingers), and then retire it as my DD before it blows up.

So, I was thinking BMW 135i (over heating issues), BMW E46 M3 (minor various issues, among them value for car), very used 996 GT3 (prolly couldn't swing one in decent shape any time too soon) Nissan 370Z (over heating issues) and now after driving my dad's 08 C6 Z51 for the past weekend, I may be thinking Vette. While I have nothing but respect and admiration for the car however, I've just never thought of it as "Me." I've driven his car for a 45 minute session at The Glen last year, and it was just such a handful, and I found it very scary to push. I think a good statement would be "it's not an easy car to drive at the limit," which is the opposite of what you hear about an E46 M3 or even a Porsche GT3, to an extent. Which is perhaps why the only C6 Vette that's ever passed me is my dad at The Glen, and even that took him a couple years. Even in the advanced group last weekend, a gentleman in a 07 or so just couldn't keep up with me. Obviously quicker in the straights, but I walked him in the turns every time. Eventually I slowed up and gave him a point by in The Sole of the Boot, but he got sideways coming out of The Toe, got rattled, so I just took off, and never saw him again (sorry for my direct Watkins Glen references for those of you who don't know it).

So, who here has transitioned from something other than a Corvette, to a C6 at the track? How steep did you find the learning curve? I know the acceleration and braking are brutal, but to me it just felt like the back end wanted to come out around the turns. Felt quite unsettling to me. I guess once you figure it out then there's little that can beat a Vette on the track in its price range, if any. Just looking on eBay and the classifieds, it looks like I'll be able to find an 07ish Z51 with under 20,000 miles for around $25K by the end of next year.

Sorry if I rambled. Just looking for some insight. Oh, and any known major issues that pop up on the track? My dad has about 6 events on this car and about 6 events on his 06 C6, and never once experienced a hiccup (not that that's alot of events, but you get the point.) Thanks.

Edit: Couple of pics for fun.

Turn 9 at The Glen. Yes I know I should have 2 hands on the wheel but I couldn't resist.


Dad and I at Mont Tremblant (where he can't even come close to keeping up with me)



Letting him by at Monticello South

 

I'm not sure what you have done to your car but unless it is highly modified (near racecar) a well driven stock C6 on equal tires should easily leave it on any track. Nothing against the VW, just the cars are in two completely different ballparks in every performance metric.
If your only track experience is with low torque front drive cars on track the C6 will feel very different. You will need to adjust where and how you apply the power on apex and exit. Also, if the C6 is on OEM stock street tires they leave alot to be desired as far as communication and track performance, something like Toyo RA1 really wake up the car and communication especially if combined with wider wheels 18X10F and 18X11 rear I like ra1 in 275/35 front and 305.35 rear with CCW wheels in the sizes above. The C6 handling feel and chassis communication can be changed dramatically with minor alignment adjustments, a good alignment can literally make it feel like a different car. Without knowing more about your track experience in other cars namely rear drive high HP cars and without knowing how yours dads car is setup as far as alignment and tires, other mods. It is hard to say whether you are feeling a normal characteristic of the car, whether the driver needs to adjust his inputs, or whether your pops car is setup with an alignment that makes it feel nervous.

That said, I came from an S2000 and while the corvette does not seem to communicate as well as the S2000 at first, once I learned how to feel what the car was telling me ( it took some seat time) it became much easier to drive near and at the limit compared to the S2000 and its speed and capabilities are way beyond the Supercharged S2000 I had.
My final thoughts are the C6 is the best HPDE, daily driver combination available at any price. The stock brakes can be an issue for modified C6s with lots of HP and full slicks but most of that can be taken care of with full spindle ducts, Castrol SRF and proper race pads like PFC 01. If I were a serious tracker I would probably go ahead and invest in a big racing radiator with EOC, TOC from Dewitts or Ron Davis or LG motorsports just to be on the safe side and keep the car in reasonable tep range. (I live in Texas so that may not be an issue for you but just a thought)
IMO, if you cant drive a properly setup C6 on R comp tires faster than nearly everything else on the track, it is not the car that is the problem.

With the AH/TC on or even in comp mode you would almost have to try to drive it off the track to do so.

 

Hey, I'm not remotely saying that my GTI is any where near the performance level of even a ham-fisted C6 driven in angst (though it may surprise you to know my car does a 13.7 in the 1/4 mile. Most people don't expect that 250ish whp and 275ish ft lbs). I'm also not suggesting that I'm a gifted driver, simply saying that when I can get 100% out of my car, well, perhaps most people are only getting 80% out of their C6, and that's all they can do. Which is why I figured the C6 is just a handful to control, cuz I haven't run into many people that can really rip one around a track. Except one guy. He had a 350Z, switched to an 07 Z06, and this kid can drive. No one's ever faster in his run group (R8s, 911 Turbos, GT3s, etc).

My dad's does have R888's on it, as well as Hawk HT-10 (I think) pads. Other than that, it's the stock Z51, so I'm not sure what you've changed on yours from stock. Maybe we'll see if we can find someone in the instructor group sometime with a not-stock suspension setup and have em' swap cars and feel the difference. And you're right, I have zero experience in high hp rear wheel drive cars, except I've been dabbling in my dad's Corvettes since I was 18 (or, for 9 years now). On the street, at 6 or 7 tenths, the thing is a dream. On the track, it gets scary. I think if I actually got one I might head out to the Bondurant school or something, so I can beat the **** out of one of theirs with less consequence, and really feel the limits of the car.

 

Just to be clear I was not trying to give you a hard time about your driving ability or current car. Sorry if it came across that way just trying to be honest. Sounds like your dad has a good start on what the C6 needs to be extremely fast on track. Again, the key to adjusting the C6 to the driver is the alignment, it literally makes a huge difference in behavior with just minor changes. If the car feels loose on exit some toe in on the back will make a huge difference. If you do not have enough steering feel and the car does not turn in as rapidly as you like a little toe out(very little 1/16" total) will change that and more caster will give you better "on center" feel. See if you dad knows what his alignment is set at and what sizes R888 he is running. I am not suggesting the C6 needs any suspension changes from stock. I do however like the bilstein sport shock better than OEM Z51 and they were fairly cheap at $300/set. The car is much more capable than most drivers in totally stock form. As far as my car, I've done gone mod crazy, you can click on my garage in my avatar to see what I have done. None of it was necessary, just fun! Of course you know that with the mods to your GTI.
What exactly were you feeling that you did not like or made you nervous in the car at what point? turn in, apex, exit? Like I said the C6 can take some seat time to "feel" what the chassis is tellling you as it communicates slightly differently that anything else I've driven fast.
For you, with lots of experience in front drive, it will be a whole new experience. you will need to adjust your line, and adjust all of your steering, throttle and braking inputs. Once you learn what the car likes, you can become very fast very quickly. Bonus, you have easy access to a car you can use on track to get familiar with it, build speed slowly and it will come. Again, IMO there is not a better combo HPDE/Daily driver out there. I can drive to the track on my RA1, extremely comfortably with the stereo rocking and AC blasting with my 12X12 popup tent, a cooler, carry on suitcase, all my race gear,2 helmets, suit, 2 fold up chairs, etc in the back getting 30 mpg on the hwy and give any car on the track a good run all day long. Then cruise home in total comfort. Parts for the Corvette are "relatively" cheap as well.

 

I knew you weren't calling out my car nor driving ability. No offense there. As for alignment, it is whatever it came with from the factory. Whatever that is I don't know, and how far off it is from where you are now, for example, who knows. Does messing with the castor and toe reek havoc on tire wear? Or are you talking such small amounts that it's hardly noticeable until things get to a hurried pace?

I cannot say what it is that didn't feel "right" about his car around the track. Of course, he said the same thing about mine, so it's just more than likely not being used to it. But, I have been a passenger in many a RWD car, and while it's obviously not the same as driving it, you can feel some differences. My last 2 experiences were in a GT3 and an RX-8. Both of those cars (expert driven) felt completely composed at all times. When the line WAS crossed, just a hint of the back end coming around, but you can get it back in shape (like with my car). It doesn't just snap. In my younger days I had my dad's C5 "snap" on me many a time on the street, to the point where I finally said "I'm stupid, I should stop doing this." However, as underpowered as the RX-8 is, both the GT3 and RX-8 are extremely poised, exemplary handling cars, so maybe that alone makes the difference in "feel." I don't know. We're headed back to The Glen in August, so perhaps I'll take his car out in the red group for a shorter session.

Edit: Off topicish, do you carry HPDE insurance by any chance? I don't on my GTI cuz it's cheap and easy, but if I had a new(ish) expensive(ish) car that can bite you in the *** pretty quick, then I might consider springing for it until I figured out the car pretty well.

 

I dont carry HPDE ins, my regualr carrier still covers me and I try not to push 10/10s since I am really just there to learn and have fun, taking the car home on a flatbed is not my idea of fun.
I like my alignment in the -1.2 to -1.5 camber with 1/32"(my preference) to 1/16"( my recommended maximum) total toe out and as much caster as you can get with those settings. appx. 7.75+ front. In the back anywhere from -.85 to -1.25 camber and anywhere from 1/8" to 1/4" toe in. This is what I use for a car that is mostly driven on the street. You can get much more aggressive with the camber on a car that spends most time on track and is on full slicks. Having toe in on the back really helps the car stay composed on corner exit. If you are using stock runflat tires, those camber settings will probably cause some minimal inside shoulder wear. The front toe out will likely cause more inside wear than the camber but it is not too bad with softer sidewall non runflat tires. Alot of guys run o toe in front and like it just fine but for me I really prefer the turn in response of just a hair of toe out. Biggest thing is make sure the car has some rear toe in and to "squeeze" the throttle on from apex to exit.The C6 is very controllable once you "know it". I might suggest an autox or two in your dads car to really be able to slide it around without worry of hitting anything. Once you find what it feels like at the limit and get used to that you can drive a c6 sideways like a drift car and be in complete control, it really responds just how it should.

 

Thanks for all the info. As much as I don't care for AutoX, you're right, that'd be good cheap way to test the limits of adhesion. Also, is there a more track-specific Corvette forum I should know about? Doesn't seem like too much going on around here...

 

Try shooting occomsrazor a PM. he has a track only C6, and although he is a novice he has been showing tail lights to everything on the track..
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/memb...comsrazor.html

He has done a lot to his car to make it race ready and I'm sure could point you in the right direction. Nice photos btw, and yes you can imbed YT clips here http://forums.corvetteforum.com/help...be-videos.html
..

 

Thanks for the lead. I don't wanna take a possible C6 TOO far in the track oriented direction however. I don't mind a little more nastiness on the street, but I'd still like the car to remain civil so I can use it as just a fun car to drive around in, go to dinner, what ever. I don't wanna strip the thing out and put in a roll cage and lexan windows, if you get my drift.

 

It is very easy to push a front wheel drive econobox to the limit because even if you keep the throttle pinned to the floor during a corner, the worse thing that will happen is that it will understeer untill you take your foot off the gas. The same maneuver in a rear wheel drive car, particularly one with as much torque as a corvette, will have you leaving the track facing backwards. If you are used to driving a front wheel drive vehicle, that is, as you noted, very unsettling.

I came to the Corvette from two Subaru STIs, both of which were very modified and very fast. They were incredibly easy to drive at the limit, and it took me quite some time to get used to driving the 'Vette at the limit; it felt unpredictable a first, because it didn't feel anything like what an all wheel drive car feels like when it is about to let go. It is really not any harder, it is just completely different; expecting to be a great V8 RWD driver just because you can drive a 4 cylinder front wheel drive car very well is like expecting to be able to race a motorcycle just because you can ride a bicicle... Completely different driving dynamics, very different behavior at the limit, and very different driving techniques required.

As far as 'Vettes keeping up on corners... Are you running race tires? Stock C6s come with run flat tires that are about as sticky as a good all season; they do pretty well for any kind of street usage, but comparing them to a car running a set of actual race tires is not a very fair comparison. When I swapped out my factory tires for a set of Toyo Proxes R888, my car managed 1.24Gs at autocrosses before they finally let go; the difference is enormous; I don't think you could put enough power into a car running run flats to make up for how much slower it would be than the same car on race tires around a race course.
It took time before I became comfortable racing my 'Vette, but now, you couldn't pay me to go back... It is SO MUCH more capable; you have more rubber on the road, with a wider wheel base, in a lighter car, with a better weight balance, and it uses the front wheels for one thing and one thing only; directing the car

My 2 cents worth

My 'Vette on 305/35R18R, 265/35R18F R-Comps:


My 1st Subaru smoking all 4 tires around a corner. It had about 400HP and weighted 2740lbs:


My 1st and my 2nd Subaru.

 

PowerLabs,

You just summed why I don't want an AWD car either. Every one assumes my next move would be an Evo, or STI, or S4, but in my experience an AWD car handles much like a FWD with more grip. Not saying AWD can't be blazingly fast and fun and rewarding to drive, but it's just not the direction I wanna head at this time.

I don't run "race tires" per se, but Falken Azenis RT-615s. Not run flats, but not exactly Hoosiers either. As I said, I'll take the old man's C6 out for a session or two in August, and see if I can't get an instructor in the car who really knows how to handle a RWD beast.

Edit: By the way, do you only do Auto-X or do you road race as well? As you noted, the two require and entail "Completely different driving dynamics, very different behavior at the limit, and very different driving techniques required."

 

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/auto...roadracing-23/

 

I had a chance to drive along with a professional driver who demonstrated the capability's of the C6 on the Zolder track in Belgium.
At that time there were several other manufacturers with their fast cars, like the Ford Focus RS, Golf R32, 360 Cup Ferrari's and loads of Porsche's. The Z51 C6 even on standard runflats was a very capable car, way faster than the standard Focus RS and R32, it was running along nicely with the Porsche GT2 and the Cup Ferrari's. I thought is was great that a car that costs way less then the other two could keep up with them.

 

After having my c5 setup for a track for sometime I had the chance to drive a stock c6 at bondurant last year for a few days. Going from my well balanced car with race tires to basically a car out of the showroom (with some minor adjustments) required a big change in driving habits but once you understand them you can really get the c6 to move.

I found the car does not oversteer but actually understeers a lot. Push the car hard into a turn and the front wheels will push. Try to add more steering will just get you in trouble especially if you don't manage the go pedal well. I never felt as if the rear was coming around but them again I am use to the power of my c5 (560 rwhp) so I am use to not mashing the gas pedal.

After a few laps I found myself having to trail brake the c6 longer into the turns and even though it felt like an eternity before hitting the gas and even though it felt like I was going slower my lap times were quicker.

To the op when are you at WGI in August. I will be there the 17-18th.

 

We'll be there the 24th and 25th with Audi NEQ. What kind of lap times do you turn The Glen (if you happen to know...)?

 

At the glen 3 years ago we were timed at 2:07 via traqmate. I have not timed officially since then but I would guess a bit faster since I have a lot more time at the track and have upgraded everything on my car. Back then I would exit the up hill esses around 125 with a top speed near 150. Now I exit the esses around 150 and hit the 160s on the back straight.

 

Nice. 2:07 is certainly hustling; that's what I like to hear. I do a 2:28 or there abouts. I would hope a well driven C6 on R888's or something would be 15 seconds or so quicker, which you can confirm and then some.

 

Just keep in mind what you are looking to achieve. I am sure a 2:28 lap can be more exciting in a vw than a 2:15 in a vette because you are pushing the vw harder to achieve that number.

I was behind a mustang and that guy had to work every turn while I was sitting back relaxing. Sure I was faster but there is something fun about taking a car at lower speeds and tossing it around like a rag doll.

Of course there is also something exciting about hitting 160s on the back and seeing those brake markers approaching quickly and knowing the chicane is right there to bite you (which it has).

Just something to think about.

 

It's more fun driving a slow car fast then driving a fast car slow

Randy

 

I use to have a 06 gti "dsg" with APR stage 2+, Koni suspension etc etc. I use to track my car about 6 times a year and at the same track I was 6 seconds faster in my 05 z51 corvette. I use to post on golfmkv.com and you can see my pictures from track days if you search. Plus my insurance is cheaper with the vette believe it or not! :-)
the gti was a lot easier to drive compared to the vette because of the fwd "you can nail it in the corners without the rear stepping out" I feel that the gti is an awesome beginner track day car and it takes awhile to get use to 400hp rwd power of the vette.
p.s. It's a vette c'mon!