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Tire Wear/Alignment Problem

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Old Oct 7, 2009 | 03:14 PM
  #21  
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Originally Posted by glass slipper
Mez is correct on this and it's why rear wheel drive cars always have toe-in and front wheel drive cars have toe-out. You're forgetting about the rolling resistance of the tire (from sidewall flex) and brake drag adding to the force created by toe-in. How do you suppose these forces are resolved??? They get transferred to the suspension which causes the bushings to compress enough to affect toe therefore the toe-in on rear wheel drive cars. On front wheel drive cars, the forces required to "pull" the car down the road are transferred to the suspension causing the bushings to compress again but this time in the opposite direction therefore toe-out is used. Expand your idea of what constitutes "drag" and you'll be able see the whole picture.
I had to think about if for a while, but I think I'm seeing it this way now...although I'm not sure how much toe effect it really has (obviously depends on how compliant your bushings are)...certainly more under acceleration/braking than cruising down the highway
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Old Oct 7, 2009 | 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Mez
Good for you.

It is really not very difficult if you think about it. I constructed my own toe-in jig using 4 jack stands, 2 lengths of conduit, and fishing line.
How do you do camber/caster? I bought the camber unit as toe in with a big lifted truck is as easy as measuring to the same point tread on the front and rear of the tires.

I will use your method for toe in/ toe out on the car, but I was more worried about camber for the vette. Good description However, nobody does a better job then yourself.
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Old Oct 7, 2009 | 03:59 PM
  #23  
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Originally Posted by Greenvetter
Its at the dealer now. I asked them to put the camber closer to neutral and I that I wanted the alignment report when they were done.
After the last alignment the car was a bit twitchy on turn in. I'm guessing the tech either did the toe only or set it heavy on negative camber. Since I did not receive the alignment report from the last time I have no idea where it is set. He did tell me at that time that it was so far out when he installed the tools that he couldn't read it until he made adjustments front and rear.
I checked the service record and the last alignment was done 2500 miles ago. Not good.
Based upon my reading of posts on the alignment subject over the past couple of years, most members seem to have experienced problems when having Dealers do alignments. IMHO, solution is to use a performance shop that has good Corvette experience. You're in NJ like me & I've used Phoenix Competition in Palm PA....not too far from you in Long Valley. On my '05, on the front they set caster at 7.85 degrees; camber at -0.45 degrees; toe at 0.02" (both sides). Rear camber at -0.48 degrees & toe at 0 (both sides). I've found these settings to be perfect for my driving style. Replaced the original GY Supercars at 18K miles with good tread depth remaining & now have around 5000 miles on Invo's with again, excellent wear pattern. Sounds like you already committed to your Dealer, but this approach is something to consider.
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Old Oct 7, 2009 | 04:14 PM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by Phill25
How do you do camber/caster? I bought the camber unit as toe in with a big lifted truck is as easy as measuring to the same point tread on the front and rear of the tires.

I will use your method for toe in/ toe out on the car, but I was more worried about camber for the vette. Good description However, nobody does a better job then yourself.
A couple of ways you can do camber, but caster requires special equipment which I have not fooled with.

Here is another DIY way:

http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarti...ome_toe_in.htm

Here a better explanation on theory:

http://www.ozebiz.com.au/racetech/theory/align.html

Last edited by Mez; Oct 7, 2009 at 04:24 PM.
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Old Oct 8, 2009 | 08:08 AM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by Dave S
Based upon my reading of posts on the alignment subject over the past couple of years, most members seem to have experienced problems when having Dealers do alignments. IMHO, solution is to use a performance shop that has good Corvette experience. You're in NJ like me & I've used Phoenix Competition in Palm PA....not too far from you in Long Valley. On my '05, on the front they set caster at 7.85 degrees; camber at -0.45 degrees; toe at 0.02" (both sides). Rear camber at -0.48 degrees & toe at 0 (both sides). I've found these settings to be perfect for my driving style. Replaced the original GY Supercars at 18K miles with good tread depth remaining & now have around 5000 miles on Invo's with again, excellent wear pattern. Sounds like you already committed to your Dealer, but this approach is something to consider.
I got the same suggestion of using Phoenix from AO Roads after he read this post. I am definitely setting up an appointment with them after two recommendations.
Got the car back yesterday. The twitching on turn in is gone now but I can't wait to see if they solved the tire wear issue due to the cost of the tires. I'm getting a second look at the alignment.

Thanks for the inputs.
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Old Oct 8, 2009 | 10:39 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by Mez
A couple of ways you can do camber, but caster requires special equipment which I have not fooled with.

Here is another DIY way:

http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarti...ome_toe_in.htm

Here a better explanation on theory:

http://www.ozebiz.com.au/racetech/theory/align.html
If you can measure camber, you can measure caster. Caster is just the amount of camber change as the wheel is turned. In other words, if you were to turn the wheel 90° to where it's now parallel to the axle (pointed to the side), the camber would now equal what caster was when the wheel was pointed straight ahead and caster would now be what camber was...the measurements flip-flop. Try to visualize it in your mind by looking at the ball joints and their position relative to the spindle and it'll become clear as you start turning the wheel.

We can use that to measure caster by turning the wheel XX°, measure the camber change, then multiply it by 90°/XX°. Let's say we turn the wheel 20° to the right then 20° to the left and measure a camber change of 3° between the two points. Our multiplier will be 90°/40°=2.25. This gives 3°*2.25=6.75°...pretty simple. There are also some tools out there that do the same thing allowing you to directly read caster off a scale that's already been factored or has a digital readout.
http://advantagewheelalignment.com/camber_gauge.html

There are many more companies with camber/caster tools and of course you can always make your own. I use the carpenters square like in your link above with a dial caliper to measure the distance to the rim then do the math myself using the inverse sine function. I haven't been to an alignment shop in over 30 years and certainly don't miss them. I like knowing what the settings are and being able to make small adjustments whenever I want to "tweak" the handling or tire wear. I can also change back and forth from race to street alignment in 30 minutes as many times as I want for FREE so I don't have to live with a "compromise" alignment.
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