SpinMonster

The 227 cam doesnt need a 3600 stall. the stock one would be fine. The cam has a 700rpm idle speed. It works from idle on up. I would use a 227/231 for less overlap to ensure a low idle speed for tuners that havent tuned the cam.

As to the TQ on the cam; he posted a dyno for the stock cam overlayed with the 227 beat it at all RPM's down low. It makes more TQ from idle to redline.

5 degrees overlap isnt overcamming.

Our opinions differ in a lot of areas but thats ok.

OBSSSD

I called Dave at Yank and he said the shift extension would be ~ 4800 with the 3200 stall, and he advised against anything over a 224 intake duration for maximum ET with this converter. Loking at the dyno graph for the 227/239 I think you want a shift extension ~ 5200-5300 which a 3600 stall or M6 would provide. It isn't a matter of idle quality or driveability in this case, since as you stated the cam will idle fine at 700 - but rather staying in the peak powerband the whole time under WOT. I think we would agree on mating the correct parts together right?

midnite902

Sweet numbers



John P. runs a great shop and Matt and his crew are awesome

Ragtop 99

I saw on the video the idle was around 700 rpm. My tach reads low at idle so I was curious if 700 rpm was the commanded idle speed in the tune?

For the benefit of the A6 crowd, 21st cent does recommend a stall for this cam, but not their next smaller cam. The idle was very calm, they did a great job on it.

Having read most LS3 cam threads on this board and others over the past couple years, I'm not surprised with the HP result for Spin's cam, as I think of it as a cam to target 485 HP +/- 10. However the graph in this thread is the first time TQ has not been well above stock in the 3500 - 4000 rpm in any posted result. If the cam was ground and installed correctly, I find it hard to believe that the midrange was not better. It is extremely rare to see a street cam not improve torque in this range. I'd be interested to know why it happened here.

C6-LS2-MN6

As for the tuned 700 rpm idle speed, Matt@21stCentury would have to verify that one. My tach shows around 700rpms at idle.

He spent a lot of time tuning it on the dyno as well as on the street around Dallas before I picked the car up. I know he even had to put another 1/2 tank of gas in it from all the driving

Anomalies can happen in any engine build once you look over the final results. Some just accept it, while others continue to spend more money looking for different results. There's a ton of variables involved in any combo and its best for the readers to do as much research as possible before planning their own setup.

JWell

The results from this cam have me wondering about two of Comps off the shelf LSr grinds now. They list them as being for cathedral port heads but it seems like they would work well with LS3s.

54-458-11 .614/.621 227/235 113
54-459-11 .617/.624 231/239 113

C6-LS2-MN6

Those do seem close in numbers to the one I used, might try giving 21st Century a call and running the question by him. He can give you the exact lobe profile of the various cams in question.

Mez

Your tuner set the the idle speed in HP Tuners. The idle table lets the tuner set the target idle speed according to the engine coolant temp. Of course, it moves around some but achieving a smooth idle with a medium to big cam rpm is no trivial challenge.

There are a number of tables that add/subtract fuel, air, and advance to help keep the idle from wandering too much. Usually, more tuning time is spent working on the idle and low speed setting than WOT tuning.

By the sound in the YouTube video, the tuner did a great job in getting the car to idle that smooth.

OBSSSD

IMO the 227/239 cam will make more power than the 227/235 and proabably as much or more as the 231/239 because of the ramps on the cam. They will all be close, but the driveability may also be a little better with the 114 LSA. Faster ramps are harder on the valvetrain but it is like free power when you can utilize them. Since the CMC-30 has such fast ramps it makes a lot of power for a 227 intake duration - effectively pulling in more air by opening and closing the valve faster. I bet the 223/235 cam (CMC-20) only gives up ~ 10-12hp up top with a torque peak a few hundred rpms lower and even smoother idle for those not wanting a little more lope. When running the stock stall in the A6 then I would use a 218/230 116+2 XFI cam. It will idle at 625 with a very slight lope and drive like stock with no bucking even at 1100 rpm. When I put the 223/235 cam in my A6 GS with headers and a 3200 stall I will start a new thread with the dyno results

Ragtop 99

227/235 113 is the same overlap as 227/239 114 so I'd expect them to be pretty close in drivability. ICL isn't stated so the DCR could favor one or the other and that is the other major variable.

What lobes is 21st Cent using? I assumed they were the LSL, which look like the lobes cited by JWell.

JWell

I downloaded the specs from Comp and they have the cam listed as 109 degree intake centerline. I'm willing to bet the 21st century cam is more like 111 or 112 intake centerline. And I also thought that 21st century was using the LSL lobes.

Katech_Zach

If the Katech C5-R chain is only "marginally better at best" than the factory chain, then why is Cloyes selling it in their "Extreme duty" package? http://www.cloyes.com/Portals/10/New...009%20(v2).pdf

Ragtop 99

111 or 112 ICL would be my guess too.

The 109 cam should be pretty snappy in the lower midrange, but I wonder if you pay for it up top. The 21st cent cam carries nicely past peak and if it were in my car, I'd be willing to shift at 6800 - 7000 rpm to take advantage of it.

OBSSSD

I don't think the car would idle that smooth at 700 with a 110 ICL even with the proper tuning, but maybe it has some advance in it? It just doesn't seem to lope near as much as you might expect looking at the specs of the cam. It carries so well up top at only 227 intake duration, and while I know the big split is part of that I think the rest is attributable to the actual ICL. The lobes haven't been established yet but they must be very aggressive. Not for the faint of heart like me

jbsblownc5

Very nice #s!


JB

Fore58

So, let me just understand this application........by just adding the 227/239 with the same car, there was an additional 23 rwhp, right. And the intake by itself only made 6 rwhp. I guess every car is different. Ok, thanks for your reply.

C6-LS2-MN6

Texas Speed and Performance (TSP) did an independent engine dyno test just on the Fast 102 intake with tons of data/graphs between Fast 102/factory LS3 intake/and ported factory LS3 intake....

The results were REALLY IMPRESSIVE in the mid-range power band, which will increase your overall average HP. That is where this Fast 102 set up shines. If you only care about peak power, I'd say 6-10HP.

RESULTS OF TSP and PatricK G:
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/dynamo...es-inside.html
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/dynamo...t-6-0l-g8.html

Your last 10HP in a max'ed out setup is always going to cost A LOT more than your first 10 HP gain when modding. I would never recommend a Fast intake / Billet TB setup for someone on a "budget build" looking for the best bang for the buck power mod.

OBSSSD

Yes the same car on the same dyno tuned to tuned with both setups picked up 23rwhp. As for your deduction on the intake - IMO you can't compare different dynos on different days with different cars. It doesn't work accurately for anything besides a general overall idea of how a setup does. So if you want to take it as the intake is good for 6hp then go ahead

bozzhawg

If your tuner did this, you should run.... This does not make since... why would they take two different cams with two different lobe characteristics and camshaft timing and use the same tune to tune?

This statement you made here made it seem like a biased test..... They used the old tune... then they did a retune with the new cam?

Who does a cam swap and dyno it off a old tune from another cam?

that just does not make since....


OP good run but I have to be honest, this does not make since, and these statements have my eybrow up... You may need to find another tunner...... But the real fact here is that this just goes to show how dyno marketing has assymilated guys into dropping tons of extra cash to reach a certain dyno number...... LS1tech has done its job...... as long as some guys don't educate themselves or learn from experience, you will always be a customer.....

And guys have it all twisted... Its not about the car that has makes the highest peak #'s, its the car that makes the best avg power that will win the race......

Bozz

C6-LS2-MN6

It wasn't about using one tune for two cams. I initially had the Spin cam installed and dyno tuned.....

That same day after the Spin Cam results, I then had 21st take the Spin cam out and install another cam of my choice (CMC-30 227/239 cam).....after the second cam swap was complete, the vette was in their bay with the original tune for the Spin cam from the prior day, so they strapped it down to the dyno just for a reference point I assume (before they started the new tune for the second cam) to see what the new second cam would put down while still running the old tune with the new cam. Just that simple, you're trying to read more into it than what it is. BTW-I never saw the graph or exact dyno numbers of this second cam with the old tune for the Spin cam, but I think they mentioned it was around ~493/~454 (?). You will have to ask them directly. My choice of words might be confusing readers.

Matt at 21st has been tuning for MANY years as well at RPM back in the day, I'm sure he may have a few more "dyno pulls" under his belt then both of us or those that might be giving suggestions.

And my explanation of this matter may be off point or not exactly right, it was a quick reference I made from a conversation we had during a quick phone call. Sorry, if I'm not able to explain it just right. Matt would need to chime in to better explain it. That's why myself and other "internet expects" pay big dollars to LSx shops/tuners to do these installs.

BOTTOM LINE IS, these are the numbers for the 2 different cams in question fully dyno tuned for each cam profile (TWO COMPLETE SEPARATE DYNO TUNES)....

CMC-30
501hp
460tq

Spin cam
478hp
429tq

Now lets please move past this small speed bump, people choose different cams everyday, there's no conspiracy theory here. If I hadn't of spent so much money in all the high end parts and just went for a budget build up....I'd have probably just kept the Spin cam and settled for the power my car put down the first time.