Katech independently tests FAST LSXR LS3 manifold vs two ported LS3 manifolds
05-10-2011, 11:30 AM
#21
Obviously the two samples they had are not indicative of all ported intakes. Judging by some of the posts in this thread, thats exactly how this test is being misinterpreted. Independent testing is done by countless purchasers with no dog in the race and there is a positive result. I have seen hacked up manifolds sent to me after people paid for the 99 dollar special deal thinking it would match a good job and can tell you that not all porters know what theyre doing.
The stockers averaged 8/11 to the wheels.
Im not sure what people are supposed to get from seeing two unidentified ported intakes fail to make a gain. I know there are a lot of hacks out there and I am in possession of 3 intakes that all made 9+ and lost that gain when the ported unit was removed. I will say that the LS3 has the cleanest runners from the factory and thus responds least to porting. The LS2s on the other hand are a mess in there. Saying the LS3 is indicative of all ported stockers is even more rediculous than saying two ported samples in a single test tells the story of all ported intakes.
I'd be more worried about a ported head/FAST combo making only 540hp on an engine dyno when a cam only (stock intake manifold and stock heads) has made 500rwhp after the drive line losses.
I thank Katech for sharing but it would be prudent to include a few samples of porters who voluntarily send in a unit instead of testing two units who were ported by mystery sources. I know Cory Harris isnt in the game anymore but his ported intakes did make gains and those gains reversed when the intake was swapped back to stock. It shows a ported stocker can, and has, made gains. He claimed 11rw average and mine from him was verified.
One last variable is that the ported intakes may not have been ported to work on a ported head configuration such as the 275cc intake runners on WCCH's porting. It changes the dimensions on the runner. Now a real awesome test would be to go back and swap on a bone stock set of heads in place of the WCCH's.
The stockers averaged 8/11 to the wheels.
Im not sure what people are supposed to get from seeing two unidentified ported intakes fail to make a gain. I know there are a lot of hacks out there and I am in possession of 3 intakes that all made 9+ and lost that gain when the ported unit was removed. I will say that the LS3 has the cleanest runners from the factory and thus responds least to porting. The LS2s on the other hand are a mess in there. Saying the LS3 is indicative of all ported stockers is even more rediculous than saying two ported samples in a single test tells the story of all ported intakes.
I'd be more worried about a ported head/FAST combo making only 540hp on an engine dyno when a cam only (stock intake manifold and stock heads) has made 500rwhp after the drive line losses.
I thank Katech for sharing but it would be prudent to include a few samples of porters who voluntarily send in a unit instead of testing two units who were ported by mystery sources. I know Cory Harris isnt in the game anymore but his ported intakes did make gains and those gains reversed when the intake was swapped back to stock. It shows a ported stocker can, and has, made gains. He claimed 11rw average and mine from him was verified.
One last variable is that the ported intakes may not have been ported to work on a ported head configuration such as the 275cc intake runners on WCCH's porting. It changes the dimensions on the runner. Now a real awesome test would be to go back and swap on a bone stock set of heads in place of the WCCH's.
Yea, it would be nice to know who 'X' and 'Y' are... I have a Cory Harris ported LS3 manifold and made the same power you referenced.
05-10-2011, 05:40 PM
#22
Burning Brakes
Nice work Jason, it is good to see true back-to-back testing for once. I have done some CFD on the LS3 intake and I think it is difficult to improve substantially without completely redesigning, as FAST has done.
05-10-2011, 06:20 PM
#23
Burning Brakes
Hopefully those that do send their own ported version to Jason, if any actually man up to do so, for testing accept the fact that Jason should note who ported it. That way there is no hiding behind negative results if that were the case. If you're confident in your product then why wouldn't you as it will only sell more of the porting services you offer?
The whole X and Y notation is
but I get it if Jason didn't get their approval to use their name.
Anyone not involved in racing or tuning doesn't ever seem to really appreciate hard earned R&D...I'm not saying you don't, I'm just a little concerned in general with guys having awesome ideas and not really feeling all that excited to put in on the board for someone else to learn from.
I can see Spins frustration from time to time as well as others. There's usually going to be a certain degree of confidentiality involved with R&D, and for a good reason.
We are all here to learn from each other, and to me it's always nice to see Corvettes developing
05-10-2011, 06:44 PM
#24
Le Mans Master
I think we should be happy he's sharing results!
Anyone not involved in racing or tuning doesn't ever seem to really appreciate hard earned R&D...I'm not saying you don't, I'm just a little concerned in general with guys having awesome ideas and not really feeling all that excited to put in on the board for someone else to learn from.
I can see Spins frustration from time to time as well as others. There's usually going to be a certain degree of confidentiality involved with R&D, and for a good reason.
We are all here to learn from each other, and to me it's always nice to see Corvettes developing
Anyone not involved in racing or tuning doesn't ever seem to really appreciate hard earned R&D...I'm not saying you don't, I'm just a little concerned in general with guys having awesome ideas and not really feeling all that excited to put in on the board for someone else to learn from.
I can see Spins frustration from time to time as well as others. There's usually going to be a certain degree of confidentiality involved with R&D, and for a good reason.
We are all here to learn from each other, and to me it's always nice to see Corvettes developing
The part of my post you quoted I was simply stating that I hope porting vendors do send their intakes to Jason for a controlled testing environment. In addition to that I was suggesting that Jason should be allowed to post the name along with results for each intake. Nothing more.
05-10-2011, 09:42 PM
#25
Drifting
"Show me one A-B engine dyno test of another ported manifold. Chassis dyno results are pointless."
Jason, what do you mean by this? Why are chassis dyno results pointless.
Jason, what do you mean by this? Why are chassis dyno results pointless.
05-10-2011, 09:45 PM
#26
Safety Car
Since you don't want to quote sources or name the "competition", and you sell the item that "won", it is only going to appear to everyone that you aren't unbiased and that could be a sales pitch for your product without basis in truth. A dyno sheet can be made in photoshop and what you are claiming is against what every other reputable shop has found..you are going to have to expect controversy in your findings without full disclosure of your testing with a lot more information to satisfy the forum audience that this was in fact a valid, unbiased and vendor neutral test.
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05-10-2011, 09:50 PM
#27
Since you don't want to quote sources or name the "competition", and you sell the item that "won", it is only going to appear to everyone that you aren't unbiased and that could be a sales pitch for your product without basis in truth. A dyno sheet can be made in photoshop and what you are claiming is against what every other reputable shop has found..you are going to have to expect controversy in your findings without full disclosure of your testing with a lot more information to satisfy the forum audience that this was in fact a valid, unbiased and vendor neutral test.
...guess you missed that post
05-10-2011, 10:37 PM
#28
Race Director
05-10-2011, 10:52 PM
#29
Le Mans Master
05-11-2011, 01:34 AM
#30
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C6 of Year Finalist (performance mods) 2019
Would I be correct to conclude that a 102mm TB on a FAST gained 8 HP over a 90mm TB on a stock manifold?
If that's what I'm seeing, it sure seems like a lot of moola per HP.
If that's what I'm seeing, it sure seems like a lot of moola per HP.
05-11-2011, 02:24 AM
#31
Burning Brakes
I can't speak for any other porters but myself. I've ported a few LS3s and even more LS2 manifolds. Before I installed my heads/cam combo I ported my LS2 intake and trust me, I didn't need a dyno to prove to me that I gained some power. I can't really speak for the high RPM power but the mid-range sure woke up.
When I port an intake I do everything from runners to TB opening to removing that damn posts in the inside...man I hate removing those posts. LOL.
Anyway, I'm not saying that the results posted were kinda "off" or anything. I'm just sharing my thoughts. Anyone can take a sandpaper roll to a manifold and start grinding away but it takes knowledgable guys like Spin, Cory Harris, etc., to make it all work well.
Just my .02
When I port an intake I do everything from runners to TB opening to removing that damn posts in the inside...man I hate removing those posts. LOL.
Anyway, I'm not saying that the results posted were kinda "off" or anything. I'm just sharing my thoughts. Anyone can take a sandpaper roll to a manifold and start grinding away but it takes knowledgable guys like Spin, Cory Harris, etc., to make it all work well.
Just my .02
05-11-2011, 08:28 AM
#33
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No, we only changed one variable. We kept the 90mm throttle body on for all tests.
05-11-2011, 09:26 AM
#34
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A very sincere THANK YOU for Katech for taking their time and money to do a proper documented test and then sharing it with the rest of the forum for free. There are a million "butt dyno" threads on this forum about what does or does not make power (hint: everyone thinks anything they spent their money on has made a huge difference. I can pull up threads where 160F thermostats made the car feel "much snappier" ) and they are all worth nothing as far as I am concerned.
Real world results like this are as difficult to come by as they are expensive to produce, and I know it first hand when I spent about $500 out of pocket "upgrading" from one header brand and type to another and doing six back to back (3 before, 3 after) dyno pulls to verify what effect that had. In the end the result was minimal and the response was similar to what Katech is experiencing; what I saw countered what a lot of people (who spent their money on the larger runner manifolds) saw and they didn't think it was valid for some reason.
Edit: I agree with Spin; I would not concemn all ported manifolds, but these results speak for themselves. I hope Spin can get one of his dynoed; it'd be interesting to see the results.
P.S. I have a ported manifold on my LS2. It was done by Corey Harris.
Real world results like this are as difficult to come by as they are expensive to produce, and I know it first hand when I spent about $500 out of pocket "upgrading" from one header brand and type to another and doing six back to back (3 before, 3 after) dyno pulls to verify what effect that had. In the end the result was minimal and the response was similar to what Katech is experiencing; what I saw countered what a lot of people (who spent their money on the larger runner manifolds) saw and they didn't think it was valid for some reason.
Edit: I agree with Spin; I would not concemn all ported manifolds, but these results speak for themselves. I hope Spin can get one of his dynoed; it'd be interesting to see the results.
P.S. I have a ported manifold on my LS2. It was done by Corey Harris.
Last edited by PowerLabs; 05-11-2011 at 09:31 AM.
05-11-2011, 09:43 AM
#35
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05-11-2011, 09:49 AM
#36
Safety Car
No, I didnt....what he stated just contradicts what is on there site for sale, which is where I see the controversy...have a look for yourself at what Katach "doesn't even sell":
http://store.katechengines.com/lsxr-...fold-p206.aspx
http://store.katechengines.com/lsxr-...fold-p206.aspx
05-11-2011, 11:16 AM
#37
Premium Supporting Vendor
Thread Starter
A very sincere THANK YOU for Katech for taking their time and money to do a proper documented test and then sharing it with the rest of the forum for free. There are a million "butt dyno" threads on this forum about what does or does not make power (hint: everyone thinks anything they spent their money on has made a huge difference. I can pull up threads where 160F thermostats made the car feel "much snappier" ) and they are all worth nothing as far as I am concerned.
Real world results like this are as difficult to come by as they are expensive to produce, and I know it first hand when I spent about $500 out of pocket "upgrading" from one header brand and type to another and doing six back to back (3 before, 3 after) dyno pulls to verify what effect that had. In the end the result was minimal and the response was similar to what Katech is experiencing; what I saw countered what a lot of people (who spent their money on the larger runner manifolds) saw and they didn't think it was valid for some reason.
Edit: I agree with Spin; I would not concemn all ported manifolds, but these results speak for themselves. I hope Spin can get one of his dynoed; it'd be interesting to see the results.
P.S. I have a ported manifold on my LS2. It was done by Corey Harris.
Real world results like this are as difficult to come by as they are expensive to produce, and I know it first hand when I spent about $500 out of pocket "upgrading" from one header brand and type to another and doing six back to back (3 before, 3 after) dyno pulls to verify what effect that had. In the end the result was minimal and the response was similar to what Katech is experiencing; what I saw countered what a lot of people (who spent their money on the larger runner manifolds) saw and they didn't think it was valid for some reason.
Edit: I agree with Spin; I would not concemn all ported manifolds, but these results speak for themselves. I hope Spin can get one of his dynoed; it'd be interesting to see the results.
P.S. I have a ported manifold on my LS2. It was done by Corey Harris.
No, I didnt....what he stated just contradicts what is on there site for sale, which is where I see the controversy...have a look for yourself at what Katach "doesn't even sell":
http://store.katechengines.com/lsxr-...fold-p206.aspx
http://store.katechengines.com/lsxr-...fold-p206.aspx
05-11-2011, 01:12 PM
#38
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It would be good info if we knew who ported the intakes.
Two mystery intakes not making power doesn't really prove anything.
Two mystery intakes not making power doesn't really prove anything.
No, I didnt....what he stated just contradicts what is on there site for sale, which is where I see the controversy...have a look for yourself at what Katach "doesn't even sell":
http://store.katechengines.com/lsxr-...fold-p206.aspx
http://store.katechengines.com/lsxr-...fold-p206.aspx
05-11-2011, 06:21 PM
#39
No, I didnt....what he stated just contradicts what is on there site for sale, which is where I see the controversy...have a look for yourself at what Katach "doesn't even sell":
http://store.katechengines.com/lsxr-...fold-p206.aspx
http://store.katechengines.com/lsxr-...fold-p206.aspx
WOW
05-11-2011, 08:40 PM
#40
Tech Contributor
Ported heads are as altered a test as you can get. Once a runner is changed from stock, the intake manifold's runner no longer matches it and the runner from intake to head bowl functions as a unit. I have never once seen a ported LS3 head not lose power under the curve unless it was a stroker using a big cam.
Last up, I have had one big name porter's intake and it lost power from stock here too. I just dont think you should be saying ported intakes all lose power when you should be saying, these two intakes from these two porters lost power on a set-up with ported heads (without a port match) and no corvette specific exhaust.
Not all ported intakes make power but quite a few tuners who had ported intakes from different porters indicated to me that one made nothing and the other....how did England Green put it..."made all sorts of power".
You proved you have two bad samples. Its not an overview of all ported stock intakes. I verified three of Cory Harris' intakes and all made +8 or better.