Cam Education
Pro
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 737
Likes: 24
From: Edwardsville IL
Pro
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 737
Likes: 24
From: Edwardsville IL
New Question pls....
What additional 'engine' maintenance is required to be considered after installing small vs EXTREME Cams?
routine valve spring inspections / or changing of with more extreme CAMS?
What additional 'engine' maintenance is required to be considered after installing small vs EXTREME Cams?
routine valve spring inspections / or changing of with more extreme CAMS?
Advanced
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 69
Likes: 0
From: Decatur Indiana
To answer your question, it really depends on the combination you choose. As a rule of thumb, I normally recommend to my customers that get bigger lift cams, and premium valve springs to check them every 20 to 30,000 miles to see if they have changed much if at all. If a car is going to sit most of the time, that is arguably the hardest life the valve springs will see. A lot of customers don't check them, and see more miles than this, but keeping tabs on the health of any high performance engine is a good idea. LSM makes a great on head valve spring tester that is easy to use, so you wouldn't necessarily have to pull the springs to check them.
Advanced
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
I need a cam for ls3 sts twin turbo stock engine 10psi and 609rwhp.
Please help!!!
Please help!!!
to answer your question, it really depends on the combination you choose. As a rule of thumb, i normally recommend to my customers that get bigger lift cams, and premium valve springs to check them every 20 to 30,000 miles to see if they have changed much if at all. If a car is going to sit most of the time, that is arguably the hardest life the valve springs will see. A lot of customers don't check them, and see more miles than this, but keeping tabs on the health of any high performance engine is a good idea. Lsm makes a great on head valve spring tester that is easy to use, so you wouldn't necessarily have to pull the springs to check them.
Tech Contributor
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 12,094
Likes: 197
From: Colorado Springs, CO
St. Jude Donor '08-'09-'10-'11
There are really only two cams I use on LS2 and LS3 cars.
The 224/230 114+2 makes 425rwhp on the LS2 with stock heads and 450 with the FAST intake. This is 505 flywheel (55hp driveline loss on M6 cars).
The 230XI/234XER 114+2 on LS2's makes 460rwhp (515 flywheel) and between 478 and 504 on a dozen LS3 cars I know its been used in tuned by people other than myself. That was using stock untouched heads with stock intake manifolds. This is 533 to 559 flywheel HP with a 55hp driveline loss. Please note that some tuners use fantasy numbers for flywheel HP stating that there is a 15% driveline loss but its a fixed number. An LS2 makes around 350rwhp and the LS3 stock makes near 480rwhp. Both are around that 50-55hp. Why tuners market cars as 700 flywheel hp when they dyno 600rwhp makes no sense as adding 15% to a dyno result isnt real. Why not just post the dynojet result? Other than Katech, I know of no one that tests engines on an engine dyno so it doesnt give anyone a comparable result. Chevy high performance mag's cam test that compared 10 cams and had most making 525hp on an engine dyno for the LS3 and thats 470rwhp. Most people's blind cam spec guess can match that as 470rwhp is a weak result on an LS3 with stock heads. Since a 227/235 114lsa and a 230/234 114lsa both made a low of 480ish and a high of just over 500rwhp why mess with itight LSas or big splits. Those cams both drive near perfect. Now if we use the fantasy 15% for flywheel power, a 500rwhp cam only 230/234 is 590 flywheel and a LS2 result at 460rwhp would be 529 flywheel HP. Just be aware.
Neither cam is a max-effort cam and the 230 cam was designed for the sane daily driver guy without driveability or idle issues. I shared cam specs to try to help others see that big split cams arent needed to make real power (that doesnt mean that I'm saying big splits make poor power- they work fine but have added overlap) as every two degrees in extra exhaust duration yeilds one extra degree in overlap. Overlap is what kills driveability. The bigger of the two cams here are 4 degrees overlap which is easy to tune and live with. The 230 cam makes power all the way to 6800rpm and has 400rwtq at 3500rpm. A 230/242 and a 230/234 made within 3 HP of each other on the same car/dyno.
I make no money from selling cams. Im just helping out.
The 224/230 114+2 makes 425rwhp on the LS2 with stock heads and 450 with the FAST intake. This is 505 flywheel (55hp driveline loss on M6 cars).
The 230XI/234XER 114+2 on LS2's makes 460rwhp (515 flywheel) and between 478 and 504 on a dozen LS3 cars I know its been used in tuned by people other than myself. That was using stock untouched heads with stock intake manifolds. This is 533 to 559 flywheel HP with a 55hp driveline loss. Please note that some tuners use fantasy numbers for flywheel HP stating that there is a 15% driveline loss but its a fixed number. An LS2 makes around 350rwhp and the LS3 stock makes near 480rwhp. Both are around that 50-55hp. Why tuners market cars as 700 flywheel hp when they dyno 600rwhp makes no sense as adding 15% to a dyno result isnt real. Why not just post the dynojet result? Other than Katech, I know of no one that tests engines on an engine dyno so it doesnt give anyone a comparable result. Chevy high performance mag's cam test that compared 10 cams and had most making 525hp on an engine dyno for the LS3 and thats 470rwhp. Most people's blind cam spec guess can match that as 470rwhp is a weak result on an LS3 with stock heads. Since a 227/235 114lsa and a 230/234 114lsa both made a low of 480ish and a high of just over 500rwhp why mess with itight LSas or big splits. Those cams both drive near perfect. Now if we use the fantasy 15% for flywheel power, a 500rwhp cam only 230/234 is 590 flywheel and a LS2 result at 460rwhp would be 529 flywheel HP. Just be aware.
Neither cam is a max-effort cam and the 230 cam was designed for the sane daily driver guy without driveability or idle issues. I shared cam specs to try to help others see that big split cams arent needed to make real power (that doesnt mean that I'm saying big splits make poor power- they work fine but have added overlap) as every two degrees in extra exhaust duration yeilds one extra degree in overlap. Overlap is what kills driveability. The bigger of the two cams here are 4 degrees overlap which is easy to tune and live with. The 230 cam makes power all the way to 6800rpm and has 400rwtq at 3500rpm. A 230/242 and a 230/234 made within 3 HP of each other on the same car/dyno.
I make no money from selling cams. Im just helping out.
Last edited by SpinMonster; Nov 18, 2011 at 06:10 AM.
Tech Contributor
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 12,094
Likes: 197
From: Colorado Springs, CO
St. Jude Donor '08-'09-'10-'11
Its a nice driving cam with little lope and perfect driveability from having low overlap.
Lou Jr from LG motorsports posted on LS1Tech that thet got 493rwhp on an LS3 with stock heads which makes perfect sense as cams in the 227 to 230 intake duration have made 501 rwhp on many cars.
I ran a 228/232 in my car for a long time. Its easy to live with.
OVERLAP FORMULA for comparing how cams drive:
(Intake duration + Exhaust duration)/2 - (LSA x 2)
Once you see that 20 degree splits add 10 degrees overlap, You can compare how much power they make for the driveability they have and decide how nec such a split is. I've seen 4 degrees to be the line of great driveability with no idle issues.
Last edited by SpinMonster; Nov 18, 2011 at 05:52 AM.
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Advanced
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 69
Likes: 0
From: Decatur Indiana
thank you
Jeff
260-724-2552 x 1003
jmyers@lingenfelter.com
Instructor
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 166
Likes: 3
From: Rocky Hill CT
Since we seem to have the attention of the experts here, I'm going to pose a question that I think is shared by some of us "more seasoned" (read: older 
) drivers out here. After owning a few performance cars, I find myself a lot less interested in the "Horsepower" number; which really should be described as "Maximum Horsepower", and exists in a place way up on the rpm scale that most of us (well, me, anyway) spend very little time. In my 2012 LS3, I'm a lot more interested in the torque curve line, and I would be perfectly happy with 400 ft/lbs of torque at 4,600 rpm (as opposed to the rated 420) if I could also keep that 400 ft/lbs all the way down to 2,000 rpm (as opposed to the rated 350, which really feels more like 250). In other words, I'd rather lift the "tail" of the torque curve rather than the "head"; if the head comes up 50 ft/lbs, that's fine - just not the objective. What the horsepower rating is at 5500 rpm doesn't concern me at all. It's a date car, not a drag car.
My experience with building motors in the past indicates that - short of a $7,000 supercharger -the cam(s) can be one of the most influential components in shaping the torque curve; but it seems most people are only interested in hearing about more horsepower, so the manufacturers (rightly so) build what people say they want, and there seems to be very little technically sound advice on creating a flat torque curve from 2,000 - 5,000 rpm. I would be very interested if anyone could share their experience and/or knowledge about reshaping the bottom of an LS3 torque curve without a supercharger, and without a lot of exhaust noise - i.e. specific cams or cam profiles that really worked.
THANKS in advance for your time. Jon
) drivers out here. After owning a few performance cars, I find myself a lot less interested in the "Horsepower" number; which really should be described as "Maximum Horsepower", and exists in a place way up on the rpm scale that most of us (well, me, anyway) spend very little time. In my 2012 LS3, I'm a lot more interested in the torque curve line, and I would be perfectly happy with 400 ft/lbs of torque at 4,600 rpm (as opposed to the rated 420) if I could also keep that 400 ft/lbs all the way down to 2,000 rpm (as opposed to the rated 350, which really feels more like 250). In other words, I'd rather lift the "tail" of the torque curve rather than the "head"; if the head comes up 50 ft/lbs, that's fine - just not the objective. What the horsepower rating is at 5500 rpm doesn't concern me at all. It's a date car, not a drag car.My experience with building motors in the past indicates that - short of a $7,000 supercharger -the cam(s) can be one of the most influential components in shaping the torque curve; but it seems most people are only interested in hearing about more horsepower, so the manufacturers (rightly so) build what people say they want, and there seems to be very little technically sound advice on creating a flat torque curve from 2,000 - 5,000 rpm. I would be very interested if anyone could share their experience and/or knowledge about reshaping the bottom of an LS3 torque curve without a supercharger, and without a lot of exhaust noise - i.e. specific cams or cam profiles that really worked.
THANKS in advance for your time. Jon
Last edited by Nexus9; Dec 4, 2011 at 03:06 AM.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 967
Likes: 1
some good info here
i'm deciding what to do since i am working with comp cams to return a solid roller for warranty. I asked if i can get another cam and they said not a problem
well it is a problem LOL
do i want another one for my TA or one for her car
if i get it for her 05 vette then i have to decide which direction to go with (gears/heads/conv, etc)
i'm deciding what to do since i am working with comp cams to return a solid roller for warranty. I asked if i can get another cam and they said not a problem
well it is a problem LOL
do i want another one for my TA or one for her car
if i get it for her 05 vette then i have to decide which direction to go with (gears/heads/conv, etc)
Racer
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 258
Likes: 1
With cam design, there are a lot of different perspectives depending on who you consult with. Cylinder head design, port volumes, valve sizing, port velocity, compression ratio, the weight of the vehicle, CID of the engine, how the engine will be used, gear ratios, fuel used, where it is degreed, and nearly the entire engine combination will give you a huge variety of results with any given camshaft. Top that off with supercharging, turbocharging, nitrous oxide, the list keeps going on and on with all of the variables that come into designing and using different cam grinds.
In regards to our perspective when choosing a camshaft, we take in to consideration literally everything above, as well as extensive testing in house on our engine dynamometer. (You should see all the grinds in the R&D department we have that didn't make the cut!)
The first 4 LPE grinds listed below are designed around some given variables, such as 93 octane pump gas, factory manifolds and catalyst, excellent street manners and near stock like drivability. These are a few of our package grinds and a little info on applications we like to go with.
GT2-3 - 207/220 .573/.580 118.5 CL (PN L210085297). This cam has been a tried and true cam for a number of applications. A variety of magazines had done articles on this particular cam. This cam has been a real user friendly cam that when installed, really didn't require any tuning. One test by Car Craft Magazine, when installed in a 5.3L truck engine made an additional 25 HP over stock with no tuning. Optimized tuning reported even better gains. This used to be our heads and cam package cam until the GT11 cam to be our latest choice. The GT 2-3 has also been used in turbocharged and supercharged applications with exceptional results. Another nice attribute to the GT 2-3 is that it didn't require an expensive spring package that would add more cost to what you were building. Another big plus with the GT 2-3, is that it produces some of the strongest torque curves to date. With the idle this cam provides it would take a pretty keen ear to tell it wasn't stock.
GT11 - 215/231 .629/.643 118 CL (PN L210065297). This cam has stemmed from a few different generations of GT cams. Typically we choose this cam for LS1/LS2/LS3 applications that are naturally aspirated. This cam drives like a stocker, and when matched with our ported cylinder heads, give you a really nice combination and very high averages across the curve. This cam has also been used in 383, 403, 417, 427 engine packages and has also fit the bill in a few supercharged packages and performed very well.
GT9 - 215/247 .629/.656 121 CL (PN L210150309). This cam is definitely our choice for a big displacement supercharged application such as the TVS2300. The GT9 has been used in racing applications as well as street car applications. This cam has definitely proven itself in both scenarios. We use this in our LS9 750 HP ZR1 package, our 700+ LSA packages, Magunson and Edelbrock supercharged heads and cam packages to name a few. It has a nice little bite to the idle, but not so much that it sounds like a choppy race car. Strong all the way through the curve. This cam does well with factory manifolds/cats or long tube headers.
GT7 - 208/230 .554/.546 121 CL (PN L210095297). With the release of LPE turbocharging LS1 engines in the early 2000s, this cam was LPE’s proprietary camshaft for use with turbocharged applications for the 346 and 427 LS engines. This cam has also done double duty in several supercharged engines. We used this cam up until the release of the LS9 ZR1 factory cam (211/230 .558/.552 122.5 CL) which has become our replacement cam in turbocharged street applications. Because of this, of course the GT7 has been discontinued.
The next few grinds are based on using 93 octane and long tube headers.
GT1-1 - 229/242 .629/.629 114.5 CL (PN L210075297). The GT1-1 was a cam derived from a test cam that provided the more radical sound customers wanted. We had early on used this cam in some of our H/C packages that were coupled with a set of headers which would produce 500HP on a 346 LS1 combination. You wouldn't want to use this cam with factory manifolds/cats. It’s a little temperamental with drivability, as lower RPM efficiency isn't as good as some of our other cams. This cam also requires a little more tuning in regards to the idle quality / tuning due to the larger durations and 114.5 CL. This cam will need a little looser torque converter, or slipping the clutch a little more to get the vehicle moving. It’s definitely an intimidating cam, but most of the efficiency range is mid to higher RPM and this cam really makes some nice power with a set of ported heads.
The next 3 grinds are LS7/427 based Z06 package cams which utilize 1.8 factory rockers. These are also used in conjunction with long tube headers/high flow catalyst combinations on 93 octane.
GT17 - 228/232 .623/.630 112 CL (PN L210106006). this was one of our early grinds that we used in our 616 HP Z06 package. This cam still remains popular as you won’t need an expensive valve spring combination, and it still makes very respectable power numbers.
GT19 - 227/239 .677/.688 114 CL (PN L210116006). This is a second generation package cam that we are currently using to date. It is in our 616 HP Z06 package as well as our 630 HP Z06 package. The main difference is we run our Lingenfelter CNC program through the factory LS7 cylinder head castings and raise the compression ratio slightly. This cam produces a little bit of a bump to the idle quality, but still carries very good drivability. You will need a killer valve spring/retainer setup to support the lift this cam requires, such as Lingenfelters PN L230036006
GT21 - 243/259 .691/.702 112 CL (PN L210146006). The GT21 is our cam of choice for our 660 HP Z06 package. This cam is not for the weak hearted! This is a radical thumping grind that sacrifices drivability, at the gain of peak power. It has literally become famous for its aggressive characteristics, and many of our customers love it. You will literally shake in the car while it is running! Normally we don’t advise this cam when drivability is a concern. We also require the L230036006 spring kit when running this camshaft.
In regards to our perspective when choosing a camshaft, we take in to consideration literally everything above, as well as extensive testing in house on our engine dynamometer. (You should see all the grinds in the R&D department we have that didn't make the cut!)
The first 4 LPE grinds listed below are designed around some given variables, such as 93 octane pump gas, factory manifolds and catalyst, excellent street manners and near stock like drivability. These are a few of our package grinds and a little info on applications we like to go with.
GT2-3 - 207/220 .573/.580 118.5 CL (PN L210085297). This cam has been a tried and true cam for a number of applications. A variety of magazines had done articles on this particular cam. This cam has been a real user friendly cam that when installed, really didn't require any tuning. One test by Car Craft Magazine, when installed in a 5.3L truck engine made an additional 25 HP over stock with no tuning. Optimized tuning reported even better gains. This used to be our heads and cam package cam until the GT11 cam to be our latest choice. The GT 2-3 has also been used in turbocharged and supercharged applications with exceptional results. Another nice attribute to the GT 2-3 is that it didn't require an expensive spring package that would add more cost to what you were building. Another big plus with the GT 2-3, is that it produces some of the strongest torque curves to date. With the idle this cam provides it would take a pretty keen ear to tell it wasn't stock.
GT11 - 215/231 .629/.643 118 CL (PN L210065297). This cam has stemmed from a few different generations of GT cams. Typically we choose this cam for LS1/LS2/LS3 applications that are naturally aspirated. This cam drives like a stocker, and when matched with our ported cylinder heads, give you a really nice combination and very high averages across the curve. This cam has also been used in 383, 403, 417, 427 engine packages and has also fit the bill in a few supercharged packages and performed very well.
GT9 - 215/247 .629/.656 121 CL (PN L210150309). This cam is definitely our choice for a big displacement supercharged application such as the TVS2300. The GT9 has been used in racing applications as well as street car applications. This cam has definitely proven itself in both scenarios. We use this in our LS9 750 HP ZR1 package, our 700+ LSA packages, Magunson and Edelbrock supercharged heads and cam packages to name a few. It has a nice little bite to the idle, but not so much that it sounds like a choppy race car. Strong all the way through the curve. This cam does well with factory manifolds/cats or long tube headers.
GT7 - 208/230 .554/.546 121 CL (PN L210095297). With the release of LPE turbocharging LS1 engines in the early 2000s, this cam was LPE’s proprietary camshaft for use with turbocharged applications for the 346 and 427 LS engines. This cam has also done double duty in several supercharged engines. We used this cam up until the release of the LS9 ZR1 factory cam (211/230 .558/.552 122.5 CL) which has become our replacement cam in turbocharged street applications. Because of this, of course the GT7 has been discontinued.
The next few grinds are based on using 93 octane and long tube headers.
GT1-1 - 229/242 .629/.629 114.5 CL (PN L210075297). The GT1-1 was a cam derived from a test cam that provided the more radical sound customers wanted. We had early on used this cam in some of our H/C packages that were coupled with a set of headers which would produce 500HP on a 346 LS1 combination. You wouldn't want to use this cam with factory manifolds/cats. It’s a little temperamental with drivability, as lower RPM efficiency isn't as good as some of our other cams. This cam also requires a little more tuning in regards to the idle quality / tuning due to the larger durations and 114.5 CL. This cam will need a little looser torque converter, or slipping the clutch a little more to get the vehicle moving. It’s definitely an intimidating cam, but most of the efficiency range is mid to higher RPM and this cam really makes some nice power with a set of ported heads.
The next 3 grinds are LS7/427 based Z06 package cams which utilize 1.8 factory rockers. These are also used in conjunction with long tube headers/high flow catalyst combinations on 93 octane.
GT17 - 228/232 .623/.630 112 CL (PN L210106006). this was one of our early grinds that we used in our 616 HP Z06 package. This cam still remains popular as you won’t need an expensive valve spring combination, and it still makes very respectable power numbers.
GT19 - 227/239 .677/.688 114 CL (PN L210116006). This is a second generation package cam that we are currently using to date. It is in our 616 HP Z06 package as well as our 630 HP Z06 package. The main difference is we run our Lingenfelter CNC program through the factory LS7 cylinder head castings and raise the compression ratio slightly. This cam produces a little bit of a bump to the idle quality, but still carries very good drivability. You will need a killer valve spring/retainer setup to support the lift this cam requires, such as Lingenfelters PN L230036006
GT21 - 243/259 .691/.702 112 CL (PN L210146006). The GT21 is our cam of choice for our 660 HP Z06 package. This cam is not for the weak hearted! This is a radical thumping grind that sacrifices drivability, at the gain of peak power. It has literally become famous for its aggressive characteristics, and many of our customers love it. You will literally shake in the car while it is running! Normally we don’t advise this cam when drivability is a concern. We also require the L230036006 spring kit when running this camshaft.
7th Gear
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
410 hp, and 380 ft/lbs torque on dynojet with stock injectors held to 6400 rpm.
The car sounds great, no drone, and still gets 34 mpg at 67 mph. There's no sag in the torque curve it just pulls harder and harder.
Race Director
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 12,323
Likes: 2,873
From: Fort Worth, Texas
I put the GT-12 in my 99 m-6. Other mods are, blackwing filter, vararam powerduct, Lingenfelter ported tb, LS6 intake, 160 stat, headers, x-pipe, and Magnaflow exhaust. Also ported LS6 oilpump and LS2 timing set, prc .650 springs/titanium retainers, hardened pushrods, and yella terra roller rockers 1.7s. Stock heads.
410 hp, and 380 ft/lbs torque on dynojet with stock injectors held to 6400 rpm.
The car sounds great, no drone, and still gets 34 mpg at 67 mph. There's no sag in the torque curve it just pulls harder and harder.
410 hp, and 380 ft/lbs torque on dynojet with stock injectors held to 6400 rpm.
The car sounds great, no drone, and still gets 34 mpg at 67 mph. There's no sag in the torque curve it just pulls harder and harder.
http://www.lingenfelter.com/mm5/merc...6#.UjuLUdJJN8E
Last edited by PRE-Z06; Sep 19, 2013 at 07:37 PM.
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,319
Likes: 64
From: Lakeville, MA
St. Jude Donor '10
Can someone explain relation of LSA and ICL. Would be good to understand difference between 114,113, and 112 LSA as an example. Also would like to know how ICL impacts cam characteristics? From what I understand, LSA will dictate where peak power is made, and advancing cam moves that rpm range lower, is that correct?
Race Director
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 12,323
Likes: 2,873
From: Fort Worth, Texas
Can someone explain relation of LSA and ICL. Would be good to understand difference between 114,113, and 112 LSA as an example. Also would like to know how ICL impacts cam characteristics? From what I understand, LSA will dictate where peak power is made, and advancing cam moves that rpm range lower, is that correct?
211230, 53l, cam, converter, dyno, gt11, gt9, l210065297, l210150309, lingenfelter, lobe, ls3, ls9, seperation, stall, stock
