C66 Racing

Many interpret the phrasing in GM's owner's manual as a violation of the Magnuson-Moss Act. The FTC is investigating:
(Articles on industry periodical Lube-N-Grease)
Automakers' Warranty Ties Blasted
FTC Seeks Comments on Warranty Act
Coalition Seeks FTC Review of Dexos
Chevron, Citgo Pass on Dexos

Many oil companies, including AMSOIL, Valvoline, Chevron, Citgo have all declined to pay GM's licensing fee to be put on the "approved" dexos listing linked in a post above.

The following AMSOIL oils are labeled to meet dexos1 specs:
AMSOIL Signature Series 100% Synthetic 5w30 (Product Code ASLQT)
AMSOIL XL Synthetic 5w30 (Product Code XLFQT)
AMSOIL OE Synthetic 5w30 (Product Code OEFQT)

Users of AMSOIL are covered by the AMSOIL Corporate Warranty

More than happy to get AMSOIL products for forum members at dealer wholesale pricing, about 25% below retail, via the AMSOIL Preferred Customer Program. Drop me a PM if interested.

glass slipper

Your first sentence is written as a statement of fact when in actuality it is a statement of opinion. You're not a lawyer, the FTC will make a ruling on this and until that happens, you'll be stating your opinion. You have a good product...focus on the strengths.

My opinion is the FTC will let stand the requirement for the oil to meet the Dexos spec...GM isn't specifying a brand like Nissan or Subaru does. Car manufacturers specifying oil meeting a certain spec be used in their car has been going on for a long time, the consumer has a wide variety of choices when it comes to brands. The real rub is GM has upped the ante on licensing costs (both the initial and the per 1000 gallon) for dexos and some oil companies are crying. It is surprising that Amsoil sells for more than Mobil 1 yet Amsoil doesn't pay a penny to any car company...they want to claim they meet the spec and reap the benefits without actually proving it, seems like a cheap company to me.

Gearhead Jim

GM's method of apparently making a profit from Dexos licensing strikes me as pretty shady, and I hope the Feds nail them on it. But I don't think that GM's insistance on Dexos oil will go away, the best that might happen is the licensing fees would be reduced so it was a revenue-neutral program for GM. That might drop the consumer cost of oil by how much?

GM apparently does have the right to set independant specs for the oil, like they did with the old GM4718M spec for pre-2011 Corvettes. But that seemed to be just an oil spec, not a profit center like Dexos.

HOXXOH

Strangely enough, if your gasoline car happens to be built in Europe you can use Dexos 2.

Mobil 1 has a 0W-40 oil for use in European cars, but it's apparently only authorized elsewhere for use in diesel engines.

Doesn't that make you wonder that either the moon's gravitational pull in Europe is different than the rest of the world, or that this whole deal about oil specifications is highly political/profit oriented? The Japanese and Korean cars don't fare well either.

While reading between the lines of an earlier post, I spotted this item that is of particular interest to Gearhead Jim.

"Remember that heavier oils take more time to get up to temperature-a motor oil's additive package is heat activated, so running around with cold temp means both wearing out the engine and isn't allowing the motor oil to trap contaminates. If you can't get the oil to 210f after serious operation, you need to look into running 30WT oils to avoid unnecessary wear and sludge. Also note that thicker oils trap temperatures, so pay attention to your oil temp gauge."

Kinda makes it sound like 210* may be the minimum number you were looking for in the other thread. Hmmmm!

glass slipper

I really find it hard to believe the many incorrect statements you've made in this thread relative to the sentence in bold above. There is absolutely nothing in the GM4718M spec that requires the oil to be synthetic. I provided the forum with the GM4718M spec last year and I know you've read it which makes your statements even worse, you know there was no such requirement. And how can you say the GM4718M spec exceeds the dexos spec? You haven't even read the dexos spec. You're making assumptions based on the fact that a few synthetic blends can pass the dexos spec. You need to consider the fact that oil technology has improved to the point that synthetic blends can pass the dexos 1 spec and could easily pass the GM4718M spec. The ILSAC GF-5 spec is tougher than the GF-4 spec and the dexos spec is tougher than the GF-5 AND the GM4718M specs. To make the statement that the dexos1™ spec oil is providing less protection for the Corvette is simply wrong.

glass slipper

Starting with the 2011 model year, dexos1™ is the GM spec for all of their gasoline engines worldwide while dexos2™ is the GM spec for all of their diesel engines worldwide.

JoesC5

Performance Engine Oil Specifications GM4718M
Revision Date: 18-Sep-2008
Product Name SAE Viscosity Grades
76 Super Synthetic Motor Oil 5W-30, 10W-30
AC Delco Full Synthetic 5W-30
Castrol SLX Professional 4718 5W-30
Chevron Supreme Synthetic 5W-30, 10W-30
CITGO SUPERGARD Synthetic 5W-30, 10W-30
Kendall GT-1 Ultimate Synthetic Motor Oil 5W-30, 10W-30
Mobil 1 0W-30, 5W-30, 10W-30
Northland, Synergy Synthetic 5W-30
Pennzoil Platinum Full Synthetic 5W-30, 10W-30
Q HorsePower 5W-30, 10W-30
Texaco Havoline Synthetic 5W-30, 10W-30



GM6094M Registered Products*
Standard Engine Oil Specifications
Revision Date: 6-Oct-2008
Product Name SAE Viscosity Grades
76 Firebird LD Motor Oil 10W-30
76 High Performance Full Synthetic 5W-30, 10W-30
76 High Performance Motor Oil 10W-30
76 Super Synthetic Blend 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30
76 Super Synthetic Motor Oil 5W-30, 10W-30
AC Delco 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30
AC Delco Full Synthetic 5W-30
Advantage 5W-20 Synthetic Blend 5W-20
Advantage 5W-30 Synthetic Blend 5W-30
Agip 4-SYNT 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30
Agip Super 5W-30, 10W-30
Agip Super PC 5W-20
Amalie Imperial Turbo Formula 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30
Amalie Xcel Super Turbo 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30
Brad Penn Superior Fuel Efficient 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30
Cam2 International Super Pro Plus 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30
Cam2 International Synavex 5W-20, 5W-30
Castrol GTX 5W-30, 10W-30
Castrol SLX Professional 4718 5W-30
Castrol Syntec 5W-30, 10W-30
Castrol Syntec Blend 5W-30, 10W-30
Certified 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30
GM Approved Engine Oils
Chevron Supreme 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30
Chevron Supreme Synthetic 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30
CITGO SUPERGARD 5W-20, 5W-30
CITGO SUPERGARD Synthetic 5W-30, 10W-30
Coastal 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30
Conoco Super All Season Synthetic Blend 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30
Conoco Syncon High Performance Synthetic 5W-30, 10W-30
Durablend Synthetic 5W-20, 5W-30
Eastern Premium 5W-30
ECO 5W-30
Esso Extra 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30
Esso Uniflo 5W-30, 10W-30
Exxon Superflo 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30
Formula Shell 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30
Formula Shell Synthetic 5W-30, 10W-30
Formula Shell Synthetic Blend 5W-30, 10W-30
GM Goodwrench 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30
GM Goodwrench High Mileage 5W-30, 10W-30
GM Goodwrench Synthetic Blend 5W-30, 10W-30
Gulfpride Advanced Fuel Efficient 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30
GulfTEC Synthetic Blend 10W-30
Hartland Supreme 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30
Kendall GT-1 Full Synthetic 5W-30, 10W-30
Kendall GT-1 High Performance Synthetic Blend 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30
Kendall GT-1 Ultimate Synthetic Motor Oil 5W-30, 10W-30
Lordco Semi-Synthetic Multigrade Motor Oil 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30
Lubriguard 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30
Mobil 1 0W-30, 5W-30, 10W-30
Mobil 1 Extended Performance 10W-30
Mobil 1 Truck & SUV 5W-30
Mobil Clean 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30
Mobil Clean 5000 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30
Mobil Clean 7500 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30
Mobil Clean High Mileage 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30
Mobil Super 1000 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30
Mobil Super 2000 5W-30, 10W-30
Mobil Super HP SM 5W-30
Mobil Super S SM 10W-30
Mobil Super Synt S SM 5W-30
Mohawk Multigrade Motor Oil 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30
MotoMaster Formula 1 Synthetic 5W-30, 10W-30
Naviguard 5W-30
Northland MW Select 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30
Northland, Synergy Synthetic 5W-30
Oilzum Special 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30
Pennwood 5W-20, 5W-30
GM Approved Engine Oils
Pennzoil Motor Oil 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30
Pennzoil Platinum Full Synthetic 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30
Pennzoil SUV, Truck and Minivan Synthetic Blend 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30
PepBoys Proline 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30
Petro-Canada Arctic Synthetic 0W-30
Petro-Canada Maximum 5W-30, 10W-30
Petro-Canada Supreme 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30
Petro-Canada Synthetic 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30
Petro-Canada Synthetic Blend 5W-30
Petro-Canada XR4 5W-30, 10W-30
Petro-Canada XR4 Synthetic 0W-30, 5W-30
PetroChina Kunlun Tianrun 9000 5W-30
Phillips 66 TropArtic Full Synthetic 5W-30, 10W-30
Phillips 66 TropArtic Synthetic Blend 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30
Phillips 66 TropArtic Turbo Motor Oil 10W-30
Premium Choice 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30
Puratech Supreme Motor Oil 5W-30, 10W-30
Q HorsePower Full Synthetic 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30
Quaker State 4x4 & SUV Synthetic Blend 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30
Quaker State High-RPM Synthetic Blend 5W-30, 10W-30
Quaker State Peak Performance Motor Oil 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30
Rallye Turbo Approved 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30
Safety-Kleen America's Choice 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30
Safety-Kleen Performance Plus ZR 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30
Sam's 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30
Saturn 5W-30
Service Pro 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30
Shanghai Lizhong Jaguar 5W-30
Shanghai Tempo 9000-1 5W-30
Sinopec Great Wall Polar Star 5W-30
Sinopec Great Wall Ultra Gold S4 5W-30
Smitty's Supply Sureguard Advanced Formula 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30
Supra Tech 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30
Texaco Havoline 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30
Texaco Havoline Synthetic 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30
TRIDEN Select Blend 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30
US Oil 5W-30
Valvoline DuraBlend 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30
Valvoline Premium Conventional 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30
Valvoline SynPower 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30
Walmart Supertech 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30
Warren 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30
Wolf's Head 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30


How many oils listed above that meet GM4718m are not synthetic?

Compare to the oils that meet GM6094M. Any oil that will meet GM4718 M will meet GM6094M, but not vice versa.

C66 Racing

Fair enough. Nothing malicious intended, just trying to get out the other side of the story. Sentence in question changed.

HOXXOH

From the gmdexos.com webpage for Dexos2:

Specifically designed to meet the needs of GM diesel engines*, dexos2™:

•protects diesel engines from harmful soot deposits
•is designed with limits on certain chemical components to prolong catalyst life and protect expensive emission reduction systems
•is a robust oil, resisting degradation between oil changes and maintaining optimum performance longer


dexos2™ is also the recommended service fill oil for European gasoline engines.

* Duramax is the exception and requires lubricants meeting CJ-4.

I guess since GM no longer owns Saab they don't build any gas engines in Europe.

2thousand2

I can't believe how long of posts you guys can make about stuff. If you want your warranty, put what is "approved" in it. If you don't care then put what you want in it.

HOXXOH

I don't believe for a minute that the brand of oil would cause an engine failure, nor would GM ever test the oil in an attempt to void a warranty.

Warranties are designed to put the fear of failure in the minds of people who would otherwise modify and/or not maintain their cars, which would create public impressions of poor products.

The side benefit creates less actual warranty claims and gives the general public a feeling of confidence.

Gearhead Jim

Thanks for the info on oil temps, Tom!


To my surprise, several years ago Blackstone Labs told me they do get oil samples from the car companies to analyze; and the circumstances cause them to believe the oil was being checked in regards to warranty claims.

I failed to ask if the possible warranty violations involved exceeding the miles limit between changes, or improper oil, or something else.

I'm wondering if GM will start getting picky about using oil on their Dexos1 list, not so much to ensure good oil but to ensure GM gets the licensing money. Even though I just use Mobil1 (which did not require any changesto meet the Dexos1 spec), GM's licensing cost is annoying.

HOXXOH

Jim, that was an excerpt from post #15 of this thread, so I can't take credit for anything other than the alert. It's still only one man's opinion, but considering his assumed knowledge, I'll go with it until something better shows up.

glass slipper

Interesting, I was up on the dexos oils long before they were introduced and the "plan" then was to have the dexos1™ for gas engines and dexos2™ for diesels be in effect worldwide...thanks for the update.

I did a little more reading and found out why...the European market has many more diesels than North America and they don't have the EPA fuel economy standards/fines to face therefore they made dexos2™ the recommended oil for both engines. We could actually use dexos2™ here in gas engines with no ill effects with the exception of lower MPG. The oil business is changing very quickly, I guess I need to do a better job keeping up.

glass slipper

Are you kidding? You bring me two lists from 2008 of different brands of oils that meet the older specs as "proof" that the older GM4718M spec is better than the dexos1™? Any oil on the dexos1™ list will meet the GM4718M spec but not vice versa. The dexos1™ spec includes the same or more stringent tests as GM4718M plus additional tests. The dexos1™ spec requires 28% less piston deposits, lower volatility to improve the performance of emissions equipment, less aeration for proper operation of VVT and AFM technologies, longer oil change intervals, and improved fuel economy. You're using the logic that synthetic is superior to synthetic blends which isn't really wrong except you're comparing synthetics from four years ago with synthetic blends of today. You have to look at the tests the two different specs go through if you really want to declare a "better" oil.

I could tell you the different tests for dexos1™ and the actual test procedures for a lot of the tests but I can't tell you the others because there are copyright restrictions on them. I can also tell you the dexos1™ spec will have additional tests added over the next three years including a different fuel economy test, a preignition test for forced induction DI engines, a turbocharger deposit test, a radiometric engine wear test, and a Plug-in Hybrid test for wear/low temperature performance/service life. Oil technology is changing fast nowadays, try to keep up...as you see above, I missed a change in Europe.

glass slipper

Glad to see the change but it's still wrong...GM does not require to use of dexos1™ oil to maintain the warranty and that's the main reason I say the FTC will rule in GM's favor. I'm actually going to do you a favor here and show you how you can recommend your products to your customers and assure them their warranty will stay intact. Go to these websites:
http://www.chevrolet.com/assets/pdf/...ner_Manual.pdf
http://www.valvoline.com/promos/dexos.jsp
If you go to page 10-20 of the first link (the 2011 owner's manual), the first sentence of the Notice in the middle says:
"Use only engine oil that is approved to the dexos specification or an equivalent engine oil of the appropriate viscosity grade."
The qualifier "or an equivalent engine oil" gives GM the wiggle room to say they don't require the use of dexos1™ approved oil. However, the onus is now on the owner to determine whether the oil he/she chooses is equivalent. That's where the second bolded portion I did on your post I quoted above comes in...Amsoil states those particular oils you listed meet the dexos1™ spec. The link to the Valvoline website says the same thing...by making that statement, Amsoil meets the requirements of an "equivalent engine oil" and the warranty stays intact. At that point, the Magnuson-Moss act requires GM to prove the oil doesn't meet the dexos1™ spec. I really don't see what all the fuss is...if your oil meets the specs, then market it as such and you and the owner will have no worries with respect to the warranty.

Here's where I have a problem with all the oil companies who refuse to "pay" GM. The actual cost per quart is pretty low, I don't see where GM is charging an outrageous fee. If they don't want to pay for the trademark name, that's their choice...just don't complain when you don't get to use it. I probably wouldn't pay either but instead of complaining, I would make sure consumers knew they have the choice of using an "equivalent" oil as stated in the owner's manual with Magnuson-Moss to back them as well as a guarantee from my company. Good luck in the oil wars!

AORoads

I do not read it that way as you do in your bolded sentence. Let's see how this goes:

1. Car engine fails, owner goes in, says it's under warranty.

2. Dealer, rep, says what oil did you put in car?

3. Owner says X brand/viscosity.

4. Dealer, rep says oil used doesn't meet dexos1 spec. Warranty claim denied.

5. Owner says, yes it does meet dexos 1, it's right here on the label.

6. Dealer, rep says fine, prove it, show us the proof it does. It is not listed as one of our dexos1 manufacturers, but if it meets specs, we'll approve warranty claim.

Result: onus on owner to prove non-dexos1 approved oil meets dexos1 requirements, not GM to prove it doesn't.

glass slipper

Read the Magnuson-Moss Act...GM has to prove the oil caused the failure because it didn't meet the spec. I've used the language of the MMA against GM before and know how it works. But don't take my word for it...read the MMA and you'll see the onus is on GM to prove the aftermarket part caused the failure.

GOLD72

C66 Racing

Update #2 in my original post. We'll see how this plays out with the FTC. You may be right that they view the qualifier as enough wiggle room, but I'm not sure any other companies use the "approved" license fee, so I wouldn't be surprised to see it go against GM either.