Throttle body rotation causing sluggish throttle?
Thread Starter
Heel & Toe
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
From: Nashville TN
Throttle body rotation causing sluggish throttle?
I have a 2.9l whipple twin screw on my ls2 and in order for it to fit the throttle body is rotated 180 degrees because the electric motor in the TB would be where my pulley is for the S/C. I have read that the throttle response is less than stellar for these cars by default, but does my blade opening in the opposite way make it worse? I'm thinking of doing the ole COW boost thing for the throttle mapping but don't want to waste my money if it won't matter. Seems like it wouldn't matter which way the blade opens but I figured I'd ask some smarter people.
Race Director
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 16,557
Likes: 2,106
From: Peoria/Phoenix AZ
C6 of Year Finalist (performance mods) 2019
Actually the '09 and up TB opened the same way as your upside down one does.
You won't get any better throttle response with any of the aftermarket "boosters", since all they do is change the throttle plate position in relationship to your foot position. All my FI experience (although, none with the Whipple) has shown that from a low engine speed they all exhibit sluggishness when compared to a N/A motor.
You won't get any better throttle response with any of the aftermarket "boosters", since all they do is change the throttle plate position in relationship to your foot position. All my FI experience (although, none with the Whipple) has shown that from a low engine speed they all exhibit sluggishness when compared to a N/A motor.
Tech Contributor
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 14,950
Likes: 264
From: St. Louis, MO
St. Jude Donor '08
The COW Booster will work, I guarantee it. Well, actually, Chuck will Guarantee it, not me. If you don't like it he'll take it out and not charge you.
It'll work for you. Made my car feel like a different car.
It'll work for you. Made my car feel like a different car.
Tech Contributor
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 32,910
Likes: 2,402
From: Anthony TX
CI 6,7,8,9,11 Vet
St. Jude Donor '08
I can’t see how rotating the TB 180 deg will change the way the Throttle blade opens. If you press your throttle blade fully shut, you will see where it seals
On the late model Throttle bodies, the throttle blade seals on the OPPISITE side of the throttle body opening.
So,,,, Just rotating the TB 180 changes nothing.
I agree,,, you will solve your lag issue with chucks COW BOOSTER mod!
BC
On the late model Throttle bodies, the throttle blade seals on the OPPISITE side of the throttle body opening.
So,,,, Just rotating the TB 180 changes nothing.
I agree,,, you will solve your lag issue with chucks COW BOOSTER mod!
BC
Race Director
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 16,557
Likes: 2,106
From: Peoria/Phoenix AZ
C6 of Year Finalist (performance mods) 2019
I can’t see how rotating the TB 180 deg will change the way the Throttle blade opens. If you press your throttle blade fully shut, you will see where it seals
On the late model Throttle bodies, the throttle blade seals on the OPPISITE side of the throttle body opening.
So,,,, Just rotating the TB 180 changes nothing.
I agree,,, you will solve your lag issue with chucks COW BOOSTER mod!
BC
On the late model Throttle bodies, the throttle blade seals on the OPPISITE side of the throttle body opening.
So,,,, Just rotating the TB 180 changes nothing.
I agree,,, you will solve your lag issue with chucks COW BOOSTER mod!
BC
Tech Contributor
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 14,950
Likes: 264
From: St. Louis, MO
St. Jude Donor '08
With a positive displacement blower like a whipple he doesn't need to worry about turbo lag. I can guarantee the cow booster will fix his issue.
Race Director
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 16,557
Likes: 2,106
From: Peoria/Phoenix AZ
C6 of Year Finalist (performance mods) 2019
A FI car may run an 11 flat 1/4, but do it with a "sluggish" 1.9 60' time. A booster won't fix that problem.
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Tech Contributor
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 14,950
Likes: 264
From: St. Louis, MO
St. Jude Donor '08
You better find out what his interpretation of sluggish is first. If he means (like I suspect) that sluggish is a slow increase in power at WOT at low engine speeds, then you'd lose.
A FI car may run an 11 flat 1/4, but do it with a "sluggish" 1.9 60' time. A booster won't fix that problem.
A FI car may run an 11 flat 1/4, but do it with a "sluggish" 1.9 60' time. A booster won't fix that problem.
Standard bet Mortimer?
Former Vendor
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 11,792
Likes: 255
From: Ossining New York
St. Jude Donor '07-'08-'09-'10-'12-'13-'14
Absolutely no so.
Actually the '09 and up TB opened the same way as your upside down one does.
You won't get any better throttle response with any of the aftermarket "boosters", since all they do is change the throttle plate position in relationship to your foot position. All my FI experience (although, none with the Whipple) has shown that from a low engine speed they all exhibit sluggishness when compared to a N/A motor.
You won't get any better throttle response with any of the aftermarket "boosters", since all they do is change the throttle plate position in relationship to your foot position. All my FI experience (although, none with the Whipple) has shown that from a low engine speed they all exhibit sluggishness when compared to a N/A motor.
Absolutely no so. Far too many people know otherwise.
The words..."since all they do is change the throttle plate position in relationship to your foot position." is
totally inaccurate as the key element is that everyone that tries CoW BOOSTER! (and needs it) is a human.
Several ways to explain this, but I always like to explain it in REVERSE.
Several people have suggested..... "Why do I need CoW BOOSTER??? I can just simply press my foot down
MORE on the throttle to get more out of it....."
Fact is....YOU CAN'T. I admit it's a difficult concept to digest, but again....
Better my customers speak for me on this one cause anyone who has CoW BOOSTER! knows
"YOU CAN NOT JUST SIMPLY PRESS MORE TO GET MORE" and if I removed CoW BOOSTER! after you drive it a bit
you would be lost without, and likely hate your car, NO you could not duplicate what I do by just pressing down more....
To the OP: I WILL GUARANTEE you it fixes your problem and YOU WILL LOVE IT or I'll remove it and
return your money to you.
CoW BOOSTER! kicks ***!
Chuck CoW
Tech Contributor
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 14,950
Likes: 264
From: St. Louis, MO
St. Jude Donor '08
Tom, I think you would enjoy the booster. Remapping the throttle changes the feel of the car. It's now built into the C7 and other cars, including the Prius, allowing you to choose a different map by pressing a button.
As a long time respected member and contributor to the forum, and a guy that puts serious miles on his Vette, you should try it. He won't charge you if you don't like it. Knowing you, and having a lot of respect for you, I think you will love it.
As a long time respected member and contributor to the forum, and a guy that puts serious miles on his Vette, you should try it. He won't charge you if you don't like it. Knowing you, and having a lot of respect for you, I think you will love it.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 7,820
Likes: 411
From: Montreal
St. Jude Donor '13
The COW booster may help but I think there is a tune issue. A PD blower is not "sluggish" off the line if tuned properly. I don't have experience with a whipple, but I don't see why it would differ from an eforce and I can assure you, mine is not sluggish. 60 times are 1.5 and getting better with practice.
I have considered the booster more than once but always come to the conclusion that for my car, I don't need or want a quicker throttle response as I have to pedal it off a hard launch as it is.
I have considered the booster more than once but always come to the conclusion that for my car, I don't need or want a quicker throttle response as I have to pedal it off a hard launch as it is.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,116
Likes: 10
From: Macomb MI
FYI: The Whipple is by far he slowest in class for boost response at lower rpm. It almost performs like a centrifugal in the regard. It does however seem to have the lowest IATs etc in class at similar boost levels. Everything in live is a trade, and nothing is for free.
Thread Starter
Heel & Toe
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
From: Nashville TN
Thanks for everyone's response. What I am referencing has less to do with the actual power delivery (I have a hard enough time gripping at launch so the "slowest in class for boost response" is ok with me), but with the car's response to me jabbing the throttle. If stationary and I give the gas pedal a pretty good jab or am preparing to launch, it feels as if there's a delay or not as much throttle as my foot would indicate in my mind. These problems sound more as if the COW booster might alleviate my problems, I just wanted to make sure that there wasn't some correlation between the TB position and my problem (even as small a change as it seems). Thanks again. I'm gonna have to be down though right when I send my ecu in for the throttle mapping since I have my custom tune?
Tech Contributor
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 14,950
Likes: 264
From: St. Louis, MO
St. Jude Donor '08
Thanks for everyone's response. What I am referencing has less to do with the actual power delivery (I have a hard enough time gripping at launch so the "slowest in class for boost response" is ok with me), but with the car's response to me jabbing the throttle. If stationary and I give the gas pedal a pretty good jab or am preparing to launch, it feels as if there's a delay or not as much throttle as my foot would indicate in my mind. These problems sound more as if the COW booster might alleviate my problems, I just wanted to make sure that there wasn't some correlation between the TB position and my problem (even as small a change as it seems). Thanks again. I'm gonna have to be down though right when I send my ecu in for the throttle mapping since I have my custom tune?
Almost as good as my Harley...man that thing with a Carb (my only vehicle so equipped these days) has INSTANTANEOUS throttle response. Downshifting on that thing is musical.
Race Director
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 16,557
Likes: 2,106
From: Peoria/Phoenix AZ
C6 of Year Finalist (performance mods) 2019
Absolutely no so. Far too many people know otherwise.
The words..."since all they do is change the throttle plate position in relationship to your foot position." is
totally inaccurate as the key element is that everyone that tries CoW BOOSTER! (and needs it) is a human.
Several ways to explain this, but I always like to explain it in REVERSE.
Several people have suggested..... "Why do I need CoW BOOSTER??? I can just simply press my foot down
MORE on the throttle to get more out of it....."
Fact is....YOU CAN'T. I admit it's a difficult concept to digest, but again....
Better my customers speak for me on this one cause anyone who has CoW BOOSTER! knows
"YOU CAN NOT JUST SIMPLY PRESS MORE TO GET MORE" and if I removed CoW BOOSTER! after you drive it a bit
you would be lost without, and likely hate your car, NO you could not duplicate what I do by just pressing down more....
To the OP: I WILL GUARANTEE you it fixes your problem and YOU WILL LOVE IT or I'll remove it and
return your money to you.
CoW BOOSTER! kicks ***!
Chuck CoW
The words..."since all they do is change the throttle plate position in relationship to your foot position." is
totally inaccurate as the key element is that everyone that tries CoW BOOSTER! (and needs it) is a human.
Several ways to explain this, but I always like to explain it in REVERSE.
Several people have suggested..... "Why do I need CoW BOOSTER??? I can just simply press my foot down
MORE on the throttle to get more out of it....."
Fact is....YOU CAN'T. I admit it's a difficult concept to digest, but again....
Better my customers speak for me on this one cause anyone who has CoW BOOSTER! knows
"YOU CAN NOT JUST SIMPLY PRESS MORE TO GET MORE" and if I removed CoW BOOSTER! after you drive it a bit
you would be lost without, and likely hate your car, NO you could not duplicate what I do by just pressing down more....
To the OP: I WILL GUARANTEE you it fixes your problem and YOU WILL LOVE IT or I'll remove it and
return your money to you.
CoW BOOSTER! kicks ***!
Chuck CoW
So your latest line assumes that two identical cars (one with and one without your booster) cannot perform the same, because the humans can't figure out how to control the foot pedal?
Now just how do you think millions of people who drive all sorts of cars are able to accelerate to a reasonable speed at the same rate and then hold that speed? Well, it's because they press the pedal whatever amount it takes to get the power they need. Some need to press more and some less and they're all human controlled too.
Any way you slice it, the throttle plate on any car will still open exactly the same amount to produce the same amount of power, whether they do or don't have a "booster".
Tech Contributor
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 14,950
Likes: 264
From: St. Louis, MO
St. Jude Donor '08
UNBELIEVABLE!!!
So your latest line assumes that two identical cars (one with and one without your booster) cannot perform the same, because the humans can't figure out how to control the foot pedal?
Now just how do you think millions of people who drive all sorts of cars are able to accelerate to a reasonable speed at the same rate and then hold that speed? Well, it's because they press the pedal whatever amount it takes to get the power they need. Some need to press more and some less and they're all human controlled too.
Any way you slice it, the throttle plate on any car will still open exactly the same amount to produce the same amount of power, whether they do or don't have a "booster".
So your latest line assumes that two identical cars (one with and one without your booster) cannot perform the same, because the humans can't figure out how to control the foot pedal?
Now just how do you think millions of people who drive all sorts of cars are able to accelerate to a reasonable speed at the same rate and then hold that speed? Well, it's because they press the pedal whatever amount it takes to get the power they need. Some need to press more and some less and they're all human controlled too.
Any way you slice it, the throttle plate on any car will still open exactly the same amount to produce the same amount of power, whether they do or don't have a "booster".
The Booster is more linear so the pedal is more responsive. Stock maps give you less throttle for a given % of pedal, and it "catches up" to 100% open much later in the pedal travel. So the first 50% is lazy, the last 50% is doubly fast. The numbers aren't exact but you get the idea.
The linear feel of the pedal makes a huge deal for us manual trans guys. Probably less of an issue for you automatic guys I'd guess. With a manual you need instantaneous response to a tickle of the pedal to properly heel and toe, if you need to floor the pedal to get a response, you're not going to be able to do it unless you have a double jointed ankle.
Thread Starter
Heel & Toe
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
From: Nashville TN
I get it HOXXOH, I can press the pedal as far as I want to get the result I want, but to me it's as if there's a buffer. The car almost has to decide what it should do with my input instead of just doing it. Sure, I can jam the pedal down everytime and have 600hp ripping through tires like an idiot with no "lag", but I pretty much daily drive this thing and built it around having good manners. I'm hesitant to spend $200 on something I'm unsure of and God knows there are a million horror stories about CoW, especially outside of this forum, but if he can provide me with what I'm looking for and will take it out if I'm not happy, then it's worth a shot in my opinion.
Tech Contributor
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 14,950
Likes: 264
From: St. Louis, MO
St. Jude Donor '08
I get it HOXXOH, I can press the pedal as far as I want to get the result I want, but to me it's as if there's a buffer. The car almost has to decide what it should do with my input instead of just doing it. Sure, I can jam the pedal down everytime and have 600hp ripping through tires like an idiot with no "lag", but I pretty much daily drive this thing and built it around having good manners. I'm hesitant to spend $200 on something I'm unsure of and God knows there are a million horror stories about CoW, especially outside of this forum, but if he can provide me with what I'm looking for and will take it out if I'm not happy, then it's worth a shot in my opinion.
It will fix your problem.