People don't like talking when they get kicked in the teeth! but I did.

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-t...-american.html

 

i Did bought a used kooks LT for around OBX new is, let me just say the kooks quality and fitment is perfect! I bought knock off before, never again!!

 

I'm not in the business, but I get that this is a business threat. The Corvette tax is really annoying. Some people balk at it.

I passed on the 1000 year, showcar headers and found a fully functional alternative. But I don't drive a showcar, and I've not done the statistical surveying others obviously have to determine the miniscule incidence of success with these headers and the high incidence of shame. Maybe OBX headers made in the year of the monkey or the rat only come with three primaries. Supporting vendors have paid for the right to stir up uncertainty, no doubt.

 

I bought OBX. The clamps for the X pipe were ****, but I had my joints TIG welded by a friend.

I'm NOT going to pay $1000+ more for headers that make the same power.

The weld quality was more than acceptable and they fit perfectly.

 

yes it is and yes I do...

 

It all depends on your point of reference. There are 4 or 5 companies that make all 304 stainless headers in the US for the Corvette. They all are super competitive with one another, and honestly, if one could undercut the other by $100 or $200 and own the market they would. The problem is, a factory in the US, and US labor cost money. And there is no Corvette Tax. 5th Gen Camaro owners pay $1300 for headers and cats (no X-pipe). G8 owners pay almost the exact same as Corvette owners. I can list lots of stuff.

So when some company starts making cheap knock offs of you products in some cave in Manchuria and then dumps them on ebay for a 3rd the price with no warranty or support, it is a touch pill to swallow. I have seen some people look at these and be like "See American companies are ripping us off!...Look how cheap they make these!". The reality is, it is the American company and anyone who works for an American company getting ripped off.

And it is important to segment things here. I know a lot of crap is made in China..much of it by American companies. That is not my beef. My beef is when a companies whole business model is to steal someone else's design and make inferior knock offs overseas. I think anyone can see where that is ethically wrong and ultimately will put people out of work.

The problem is legally, there is not much you can do because of how complex and costly such litigation is. A small business cannot spend 6 figures in legal fees (without raising prices a lot more at least).

Rather, you have to educate potential customers, and hope they understand that there is a cost to doing business the right way. I don't think anyone would like this happening to whatever they do for a living.

 

That's very reasonable. Thank you for sharing your thoughts, MarylandSpeed. You make some great points.

I think that generally there are 4 potential reasons that someone in the market for new headers would not buy OBX:

1) Doubt as to equivalent performance gains;
2) Doubt as to fit/ability to return;
3) Doubt as to durability/warranty support; and
4) Ethical objections to the OBX business model.

I don't know if there is any support for the concerns in 1) (there is none in my book).

No one knows exactly how often fit or durability issues arise or whether the current product has materially more issues than any other brand. I can accept that there probably a greater risk of fitment or durability issues with these headers than with more expensive brands, but without real statistics I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that going with these headers is a crapshoot or lotto proposition. I really had little reservation about this, my experience bore that out, and I think you'd find a lot of folks with similar thoughts and experiences.

Ethical issues are something to consider, but I'm a consumer, not a competitor. It's great that American companies pay high wages and rent to other Americans, but my concern is money out of my pocket, not keeping people at work. I am not the federal government, and I won't pay hundreds more just to act like the government. And I don't assume that what OBX is doing is illegal. Patent infringement law is tricky (and there may not even be a patent here). Americans undercut and knock off other Americans all the time - look at Coke and Pepsi. It's the nature of our Darwinistic economy, so I personally attach little value to buying American made headers for ethical reasons. Others will surely think differently.

BTW, American ebay sellers are probably keeping a good chunk of the profits from these headers, so there's got to be a big Americans eating Americans aspect to this.

 

We want to shop at Walmart and then wonder why people can't get living wage jobs. Same deal buying headers from China.

 

Sorry for the delayed response. Yes I had them installed along with my airaid intake the other day and I can't tell you how pleased I am. Here's an interesting fact for everyone knocking these "eBay", "china", "POS" headers.. My buddy went with me to get his c6 LS2 automatic (same thing as mine) dynod the same day as I did and he did same intake with Kooks header/x pipe and he dynod 2.4 rhp less then me!!!
Got the dyno sheets if you'd like me to post the comparison. So yes, I think my "china" headers were a smoking deal for the $850 I paid on eBay.

Only thing is gaskets suck that they give. I just used my factory ones..

Not quite sure what you mean? I understand and agree with keeping our money here in America but at some point you draw the line. At this point it's just common sense.. 1/2 the price for the same product with what I explained above, better results! It's a no brainier in this situation.

 

In terms of quality of the overseas stuff, one thing we have found is it is a crapshoot because they move production around to whatever plant bids the lowest. From run to run, some look okay, and others look terrible like this. Imagine how hard it is to weld an ovaled pipe to a round flange.



The problem is, it's not like you can go in a store and look at this stuff and see the differences. Most people think a header is a header and just install it.

I have become surprised at how little nationalism most Americans attach to their buying choices. It's not like that in other countries. In Japan, consumers won't buy American cars or Xboxs because the Japanese auto industry, and Sony are pretty big parts of the economy. Here we just buy whatever is cheapest and then act clueless when people get laid off, and entire segments of work disappear. Penny wise, dollar foolish.

I have been to the trade shows...and the people hawking this stuff are in most cases obviously of overseas decent.

I must be missing the common sense part? Nice things cost more than not nice things. Knock off products are always much less than the real thing. That's the only way you can sell an inferior copy of someone else's product. You did not get "the same product" as Kooks...you got the fake Oakley's of the header world. They may work..and you may be happy....but you are not smarter than the guy who buys Kooks.

One thing I never got is people spend all this money on a Corvette. Then they go out and spend even more money on pretty lights, shiny chrome stuff, and so forth. Then they spend even more money on an intake and $1000 exhaust.

Yet as soon as it comes to headers, it's time to go thrift shopping on ebay? I mean there is a TON of overpriced stuff out there, that does nothing for performance and it sells without a gripe. Yet headers, which can add 10% or more power they turn into Scooge Mcduck.

 

I agree with the common sense part. I bought a set of eBay headers and at ~$400 I don't expect perfection. The welds aren't perfect but I'm sure will hold. Could I pay to have em redone? Sure but I feel like it'll do its job.

Even on the off chance these somehow fail. I could buy two more sets, and still spend less than most big name competitors. There is no way I'm being convinced that $1500 headers are the way to go. Its a piece of metal spent exhaust goes through.

Sway Bars are another one that bothers me. There is no way I would consider some of the prices people pay for them. Spending $1000-$1500 on a set of sway bars blows my mind.

 

Have to disagree with you. The companies control the market and set the price point together. There is absolutely no reason in hell that "American headers" should cost 1500+. I have seen and installed the ebay headers, they are still on the car today with over fifty thousand miles on them.

Now there is an obvious demand and price point for cheaper headers for these cars. And your against a business model that fulfills what consumers want? Calling them knockoffs is a sad attempt, to justify the outrageous pricing on the mainstream headers. I don't see you calling Texas Speed headers knockoffs? What's the difference in Texas Speed, American Racing, Kooks, and Pfadt headers other than the stamped tag that's on them and price? The only headers with a proven record to be superior are LG's. LG can command a higher price because their the best end of story! The other companies however cannot.

 

Not that I have a header preference, but how did you determine LG is superior to the others? And if the ebay/OBX headers produce the same power and are "just as good", how can you condone LGs price over the others.

 

Again..this whole "value" argument does not belong in a conversation about modding you sports car. Using that logic, you can buy 3 Kia's for what a Corvette costs. Sure the Kia is not as fast or flashy as a Corvette, but it gets you from point A to point B and if it breaks, just throw it away and get another one.

What I find funniest is pretty much every modded Vette I see has Corsa, Borla, B&B or some other $1000 deal..that takes a lot less to manufacture. People spend $400 on plastic intakes all day long. You don't see these kind of arguments on those parts. In a world where people spend hours on youtube pouring over exhaust clips search for the perfect exhaust, I have a hard time believing that bent pipe is bent pipe and you ignore pretty big quality issues.

Like I said..there is something about headers that makes people super tightfisted.

I am not going to get into an argument over your post and which brand is better, but this sentence is simply wrong. That is the worst thing about the whole knock off thing. Somehow the companies who are having their designs stolen become the bad guy. Yup, they were overcharging from the get go, and ripping Corvette customers off.

 

Lots of good info here.

Now that the C7 is out and 05, 06, 07 cars are cheap, you end up with owners that have cars that they bought and don't want to spend 10% of what they paid for the car for headers. Poor quality headers, as shown in the pictures above, will actually rob, not make horsepower because the stock exhaust manifolds are actually pretty good.

 

I am an ME in automated manufacturing, everything robots and vision and leak test etc.

The tubes are CNC bent and then all of the tubes put into a jig where a robot will MIG weld the components together.

With that said , a US company has an investment in Capitol machinery and set labor rates, while somewhere in China has a more crude jig and probably welds them by hand, but I will say that unless the US companies are bending their own tubes , a primary market vendor could be forming them and sending them anywhere in the world to whomever buys them, I do not know personally what the case is, but just food for thought .

In a nut shell and because I am fiercely American , I buy from the USA every chance I get, even if it costs more, just my .02

 

LG has extensively tested and designed their "own" headers that have repeatedly shown to produce more power than the other brands. If you are trying to get every little bit of power out of your car then LG is the best proven choice. They are a small business and do their own thing, for that type of specialty they demand higher prices and get them.

Take Texas Speed vs AR, there's a thousand dollar difference between the two do you know why? I'll tell you why because Texas Speeds are made in China and AR are made in the states. Now AR gets their tubing from overseas and assembles them here. Is there any difference in quality or performance between the two? The answer is no! The price difference for labor is no where justified in my opinion.

The TS headers are a hundred more than Ebay, I will gladly spend a hundred more to support an American company, but not a thousand.

 

How do you know where American Racing Headers get's their materials? Did you work at that company?

 

All of this is wrong. He posted one picture of a bad weld. This is not indicative of all of them.

Cheaper headers have lower quality control, and lack merge spikes. I haven't found anything else that makes them inferior.

I bought and installed OBX headers. They fit perfectly, made the same power as the big brands (based on trap speed), and had good welds. I did the magnet test and it did not stick. Here is a pic of my primaries...












And the stock manifolds ARE NOT good. The reason for longtubes would be to aid in scavenging among other things. This would be the only argument against cheap headers, but they have shown over and over to be equal in power to brands that cost $1000+ more.

 

Got it from Z06Vette.com, when AR and LG were having a disagreement. Was said that AR gets their collectors from cone industries (same as LG), they are castings made in a Chinese factory that builds Castings for GM and the Camaro. AR didn't deny this fact, so one would think it to be an accurate statement.

Could be totally false but It was not denied