CI GS

Got the Johnson 2110s today. BTR are the best. Ordered on Monday afternoon and picked it up from UPS the following afternoon. It took just under 27 hours from the minute I ordered them over the phone until I had them in my hand. That’s a new record for me I think.
The quality difference between them and the GM lifters is readily apparent.
I cleaned them with some solvent and then submerged them in oil for a couple of hours. I have the passenger side set in already. I’ll soon know whether there’s any difference with pushrod length, preload, oil pressure, etc. I’m really glad I could get my hands on a set of these, even though I’m convinced now that there’s nothing really wrong with the stock lifters.

Apocolipse

2110 seat is 0.045" higher than stock so will need shorter prs. As for preload they say to run 0.035 +- 0.010

I have 2110 in my build and had 0 change in oil pressure hot/cold.

also to fuel this thread...take a straight edge up to the lifter wheel....they are not flat as you would assume them to be.

CI GS

Thanks. I’ve seen on another forum where a reputable LS engine builder (whose also a member on this forum) says that he’s consistently found that the 2110s need a 7.4” pushrod with unmilled heads and a standard GM .054” gasket. I’m hoping he’s right, but it’s not a big deal if I have to order new pushrods.
I need to check the dia. of the Johnsons to the stock lifters and see if there’s a difference on mine. I was a little worried about that, because it occurs to me that lifter to bore clearance is critical with LS engines, since the cam and main journals are fed from the lifter oil galley, unlike some aftermarket blocks with “priority mains oiling”, so excess lifter clearance would cause excess oil loss around the lifters and affect the oil delivery to the cam, mains and rod journals.
I hear you on the rollers not being perfectly flat. I can see now that is what caused my concern, which provoked me to start this thread. When you look at the lifter rollers/wheels closely, you can see that what has happened is that the high spots, which look to be mostly on the outside of the roller, are being burnished or polished, because those areas that are touching the cam lobe, which is a very hard, highly polished 8620 alloy, and this leaves you with the initial impression that the center of the wheels are being scuffed, because they appear duller than the burnished areas.
It also occurs to me that there are two series/types of these GM lifters that are available through mostly every vendor: the Delphi LS7 lifters, which typically retail for around $100, and the GM High Performance LS7 lifter, which retails for almost double that. I have no idea which one comes in the LS3, but I can say that when you compare my stock lifters to the Johnsons, especially under magnification, you can see the quality difference. The stockers have all sorts of little dings and rough edges. Not so with the Johnsons. That’s why they cost more than twice as much. I think they are worth it. But let’s see how I feel when I get this thing going again...

Chiselchst

I wanted to post one last piece of info I found regarding oil, and specifically the HT/HS number in relation to fuel mileage vs. engine wear. I found it very telling. I didn't want to start a new thread, so anyways...

CI GS

That’s some interesting stuff Mitch. What baffles me is the high oil temps that they use for this test. 302* F is above the thermal breakdown point of mostly (if not all) motor oils on the market, no? And I don’t recall seeing this type of viscosity rating on any motor oil that I’ve looked at.
I’m a long ways away from understanding all the chemistry and testing methods, but from what I’ve read in recent months, it looks to me like the Amsoil Signature Series 5W-30 oil is the best oil there is out there right now, and in terms of shear/film strength, and is the single best oil tested by 540Rat and unlike many others, it does not lose any significant amount of viscosity at elevated temperatures.

CI GS

Since I didn’t have a micrometer handy to (properly) check the exact dia. of the lifters, I used what I had, which is a digital caliper, to measure the stock lifters and the Johnsons. I know this isn’t a deadnuts proper measurement, but I was as careful as I could be to measure the lifters in the same position and took my time and turned them to get the highest reading for each lifter, and tried my best to get consistent readings, and it revealed some interesting results:
All of the Johnson lifters measured exactly what you said, .08420”. The stockers? Well they were all over the place, but some of them were smaller than the Johnsons, with one measuring .0005” larger!?
Below are some of the pictures I had someone snap while I was holding the caliper. I didn’t measure every single lifter, but measured 6 of each. So, take it for what it’s worth.
I’ll soon know if there’s any adverse effect on oil pressure, and will report back my findings. I’m not overly worried though, because with the Melling HV/HP pump, I already have higher than stock oil pressure. If the oil press drops, I’ll probably switch to the “Euro spec” 0W-40 M1 oil, which is what GM specs for these cars in Europe.

Chiselchst

Let me preface this by stating I am certainly no expert, by far. I barely graduated high school!

I have read that at several locations in an engine, particular locations such as the scraped cylinder wall after combustion, localized hot spots can occur. Some oil - a portion - might see these extreme temps, but not all of the oil. Suppose the oil temp into a cooler is 250*F, not all of that oil is returning at exactly the same temp. Some localized areas might see much higher temperatures, others much cooler.

My *guess* is that perhaps they do that test at such a high temperature to expedite the shear breakdown point/effect.

Dino oils with high viscosity index (VI) numbers, are MUCH more prone to *breaking* the long chain molecules that create the higher viscosity when hot, then syn oils. Syn oils have a natural propensity and have that intrinsic characteristic.

Oil, like religion, is always controversial...LOL

"Viscosity loss – A lubricant’s viscosity is its most important property. Viscosity has a direct bearing on wear protection, and your engine is designed to operate best using a motor oil of a specific viscosity (e.g. 5W-30). The intense pressure the oil bears as it’s squeezed between moving parts, like the piston ring/cylinder wall interface, can tear apart, or shear, its molecular structure, leading to viscosity loss. Suddenly, the 5W-30 motor oil your engine was designed to use is now essentially a 5W-20 oil, and wear protection may be compromised."


Temporary and Permanent Viscosity Loss

During routine engine operation and through continued use, engine oils are exposed to shearing mechanisms that break down the polymer molecules, reducing the oils molecular weight. This can lead to viscosity loss and a subsequent decrease in oil film thickness. If too severe, this can cause undesired friction and engine wear with oils that are not formulated with the proper viscosity characteristics.

Molecular shearing of lubricating oils typically occurs in very tight spaces between moving parts that are in close proximity to one another. Bearings and ring faces are classic examples of where engine oil shearing can occur. Polymer coils also react to changes in shear or flow-rate in the oil.



Under no shear/no flow conditions, the polymer coil is roughly spherical in shape (center diagram). As the oil begins to flow, the flexible polymer coil reacts to the velocity gradient within the oil. The coil deforms (becomes elongated) and becomes aligned to the direction of flow. The distorted coil impedes the oil’s flow less than the original spherical coil did, and the oil’s observed viscosity falls. This is known as “shear-thinning” behavior. When the shear stress is removed, the distorted coil resumes its original spherical shape and the oil’s viscosity returns to its original value. This shear thinning is therefore termed “temporary viscosity loss.” Under more extreme (very high) shear conditions, the coil can be pulled apart and polymer chain broken into two smaller chains. These two smaller chains have less impact on the oil’s viscosity than a single large chain, so the viscosity falls in this case as well, especially since the chains also align in the direction of flow. When the shear is removed, the broken polymer chain cannot re-form into the single large chain because the coil has been physically and chemically changed. Consequently, the oil’s viscosity does not return to its original value, but remains at a lower viscosity. This is known as “permanent viscosity loss.” Note that larger coils are subject to larger forces when the oil is exposed to shearing stresses. This is because a larger coil has more “surface” over which the stretching forces of the oil’s viscosity gradient can operate. Larger coils are therefore more easily pulled apart and broken than smaller coils, so therefore, high molecular weight molecules are more vulnerable to permanent viscosity loss.

Often, the more I learn, the less I realize I really know...

Amsoil - I agree it's about as good as it gets!


Okay, now back to the important ****!

CI GS

Quote: “Oil, like religion, is always controversial...LOL”
Amen, brother! That just about sums it up perfectly!
There’s some seriously interesting stuff on this thread. Thanks very much for contributing to the continuing education of dummies like me!

CI GS

Just to update this thread for future reference, I ended up using a set of 7.375” Manton 11/32” dia. pushrods with the Johnson 2110 lifters and this required just about a 3/4 turn of preload from zero preload to 22 ft lbs., which should be good (assuming 1 full turn is ~.077” as many others have opined). I cranked the car up yesterday and after the lifters pumped up the valvetrain is now significantly quieter than it was with the stock lifters. The oil press is also good. On startup it immediately went to 55psi at idle and came down to about 50psi after a couple of starts and idling it for a few minutes. This is with a fresh oil change and the same type of K&N filiter and the same Mobil 1 5W-30 oil as used before.

realcanuk

Sounds good. All that hard work paying off !!!

CI GS

Thanks Jody. I’m going to take it for a drive later to see how quiet the valve train is after the oil and those lifters warm up properly.

Apocolipse

The johnsons quiet it up a lot. Mine was silent. Congrats on the build.

z06scentair

Congrats on the good news.