Pushing it too far??
Thread Starter
Intermediate
Joined: Jul 2022
Posts: 30
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From: Destin Florida
Pushing it too far??
Hey all!
Bought a Z51 with an oil pressure issue and am having RPM performance rebuild it for me. Previous dyno numbers were 699Whp / 635Torque. Internals were all stock and this resulted in them failing. Im forging all my internals and then im going to have Innovative Street Tech do my tune to keep it fast but reliable. Mod list below. Lookin for suggestions or input to keep it around 600-700 whp without compromising the engine itself. My tuner was worried about running meth on pump gas and having the meth pump fail. he suggested running 7-9lbs of boost with 15% alcohol mixture in the kit just for cooler temps. Not to increase the octane to 100+. What numbers can i expect with this setup and what are my limiting factors here.
Comp Cams -223/240 .610 lift at 112 LSA / high lift springs
P1sc Procharger 4in pulley
Act twin disk street clutch 875hp rating
Lg long tube headers and x pipe
Billy boat fusion exhaust
Dallas performance big mouth intake
Dewwits radiator with dual spal fans
Z06 oil cooler
Alky control dual nozzle meth kit (worried about this one honestly)
MSD boosta pump
65# injectors
Pfadt poly bushings
MGW short throw shifter
Bought a Z51 with an oil pressure issue and am having RPM performance rebuild it for me. Previous dyno numbers were 699Whp / 635Torque. Internals were all stock and this resulted in them failing. Im forging all my internals and then im going to have Innovative Street Tech do my tune to keep it fast but reliable. Mod list below. Lookin for suggestions or input to keep it around 600-700 whp without compromising the engine itself. My tuner was worried about running meth on pump gas and having the meth pump fail. he suggested running 7-9lbs of boost with 15% alcohol mixture in the kit just for cooler temps. Not to increase the octane to 100+. What numbers can i expect with this setup and what are my limiting factors here.
Comp Cams -223/240 .610 lift at 112 LSA / high lift springs
P1sc Procharger 4in pulley
Act twin disk street clutch 875hp rating
Lg long tube headers and x pipe
Billy boat fusion exhaust
Dallas performance big mouth intake
Dewwits radiator with dual spal fans
Z06 oil cooler
Alky control dual nozzle meth kit (worried about this one honestly)
MSD boosta pump
65# injectors
Pfadt poly bushings
MGW short throw shifter
Le Mans Master
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 6,337
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From: Charles Town WV
2024 Corvette of the Year Finalist - Modified
2023 C6 of the Year Winner - Modified
2022 C6 of the Year Finalist - Modified
sounds like your in it pretty deep already as far as cost, at this point why not do a fuel system and just put it on e85 and eliminate the need for Methanol? If you have a forged rotating assembly I would think your limiting factor would be the block itself (im assuming ls3?)
Thread Starter
Intermediate
Joined: Jul 2022
Posts: 30
Likes: 5
From: Destin Florida
sounds like your in it pretty deep already as far as cost, at this point why not do a fuel system and just put it on e85 and eliminate the need for Methanol? If you have a forged rotating assembly I would think your limiting factor would be the block itself (im assuming ls3?)
Correct it is the LS3 block. I was thinking about doing the fuel system, just didnt know how far the stock fuel system can operate at. From what ive read the 2008 C6 has the same fuel pump as the Z06 of that year.
Im not looking to chase crazy horsepower. I feel like 600-700 would be plenty for a car i was to drive often and actually get some traction in 1st 2nd and 3rd gears. I did look into running e85, but unfortunately there is not a pump anywhere within driving distance where im at in florida.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 6,337
Likes: 5,115
From: Charles Town WV
2024 Corvette of the Year Finalist - Modified
2023 C6 of the Year Winner - Modified
2022 C6 of the Year Finalist - Modified
I'd probably just do it for nothing more than the insurance. Sounds like you already might be Boost a pump/Meth dependent. If you did a fuel system it would eliminate both of those issues and also give you grow room later if your bored. Even on pump 93 you would be safer than without if e85 isn't available near you
Thread Starter
Intermediate
Joined: Jul 2022
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From: Destin Florida
Absolutely. And i dont wanna be Boost a pump/meth dependent. Until i can get all that sorted out now i think ill run it low boost, break it in nice and easy and when its time to tune it back up go ahead and throw the whole new fuel system on there. Ill keep the Meth i think just for the cooling factor at 15% mix.
Will i see a decrease in power if im not using a 50/50 meth mix and switch to a whole fuel system? Im assuming so because the octane will be lower
Will i see a decrease in power if im not using a 50/50 meth mix and switch to a whole fuel system? Im assuming so because the octane will be lower
Le Mans Master
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 6,337
Likes: 5,115
From: Charles Town WV
2024 Corvette of the Year Finalist - Modified
2023 C6 of the Year Winner - Modified
2022 C6 of the Year Finalist - Modified
Honestly not too sure on that, I never messed with methanol on my last boosted setup. Hopefully someone else could answer. You could always pulley down tho at that point and probably make more.
Safety Car
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 4,663
Likes: 1,846
From: Erlanger, Kentucky
What part of the internals failed?
LS3 stock non-forged should be good to 600 or so whp. LS3 with forged crank (GS with manual trans has a forged crank) should be able handle more power. As for as I have read, the stock LS3 block should be able to handle 1000 hp.
And it should be easy to hit 600 hp on your setup at relatively low boost.
LS3 stock non-forged should be good to 600 or so whp. LS3 with forged crank (GS with manual trans has a forged crank) should be able handle more power. As for as I have read, the stock LS3 block should be able to handle 1000 hp.
And it should be easy to hit 600 hp on your setup at relatively low boost.
Thread Starter
Intermediate
Joined: Jul 2022
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From: Destin Florida
From what the shop sent me it looks like the Comp Cams were getting scraped really bad, the lifters went and bearings were about to start slipping. I wish i knew what specifically caused it with the stock internals but im not that smart yet. It is nice to know the LS3 block can handle a good amount of power. That's a relief to know.
Everything should be rebuilt in september! ill be able to drive it around and get a feel for it again then take it to IST and start working on the tune or figuring out the best setup for reliability and power.
Everything should be rebuilt in september! ill be able to drive it around and get a feel for it again then take it to IST and start working on the tune or figuring out the best setup for reliability and power.
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Le Mans Master
Joined: Dec 2013
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From: Charles Town WV
2024 Corvette of the Year Finalist - Modified
2023 C6 of the Year Winner - Modified
2022 C6 of the Year Finalist - Modified
Sounds to me like you had a lifter failure which wiped the cam. Typically when it happens the pump will scrape up the debris and wipe the bearings too. I just went through it myself but got lucky and heard it happen and got it shut off quick enough to keep it out of the pump. Doesn't take much though. Like I said, personally I would get off the meth dependency and go with a dedicated fuel system. Hit up Doug Ring at ECS and he'll run you through your options. Coupled with the Meth as a Safety net I think youll be pretty happy with the results and should have alot of grow room should you ever decide too.
Thread Starter
Intermediate
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From: Destin Florida
Sounds good! I really appreciate all the info yall. I will 100% be getting away from the meth dependency and moving to a full fuel system. Sounds like thats by far my best option to maintain power and not blow the engine apart.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Dec 2013
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From: Charles Town WV
2024 Corvette of the Year Finalist - Modified
2023 C6 of the Year Winner - Modified
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Best of luck brotha, sounds like a fun little street car
Le Mans Master
Joined: Dec 2005
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From: Southeast TX
A centri blower and meth injection are a match made in heaven. If your tuner doesn't know how to fail safe the setup, find another tuner. I wouldn't think you'd need a dual nozzle system at your power levels. Single nozzle is simpler. Alky control is a really well regarded meth system too. I've had one and it worked flawlessly. At 600 wheel you might not need it. At 700 wheel you difinitely do. I'd do a flex fuel setup before meth, but you don't have access to E, so an Alky Control meth system would be a really good alternative.
Venture over to the "Forced Induction" page to verify. Lots of threads there on this subject.
Venture over to the "Forced Induction" page to verify. Lots of threads there on this subject.
Thread Starter
Intermediate
Joined: Jul 2022
Posts: 30
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From: Destin Florida
A centri blower and meth injection are a match made in heaven. If your tuner doesn't know how to fail safe the setup, find another tuner. I wouldn't think you'd need a dual nozzle system at your power levels. Single nozzle is simpler. Alky control is a really well regarded meth system too. I've had one and it worked flawlessly. At 600 wheel you might not need it. At 700 wheel you difinitely do. I'd do a flex fuel setup before meth, but you don't have access to E, so an Alky Control meth system would be a really good alternative.
Venture over to the "Forced Induction" page to verify. Lots of threads there on this subject.
Venture over to the "Forced Induction" page to verify. Lots of threads there on this subject.
I hadn’t heard of a failsafe for it yet. I’ll talk to them and figure out what that’s about. Hopefully if I keep it around 700wheel I can figure out how to get traction too! Can’t wait to get behind the wheel
Thread Starter
Intermediate
Joined: Jul 2022
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From: Destin Florida
Just had another thought and i haven't seen a lot of discussions on it yet. What kind of upgrades do i need to do to the driveline outside of a clutch. Will the tranny and shaft hold up to the power? Or is it time to change input/output shafts and go with and upgraded driveshaft. Id love to hear the stock driveline with and upgraded clutch will work just fine but id rather get the bad news in a thread instead of on the side of a road.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Dec 2013
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From: Charles Town WV
2024 Corvette of the Year Finalist - Modified
2023 C6 of the Year Winner - Modified
2022 C6 of the Year Finalist - Modified
While I can't say for certain I know the tr6060's are tough units. I think theres been guys making around your power and them surviving but thats all subjective to how you drive the car, mileage, ect. You could drive the car easy and it may live for years, you could mat it from a low roll one day and it hook and shock the driveline and break something tomorrow. I dunno that theres a wrong or a right answer there. If you do decide to build it reach out to RPM transmissions and ask for Jeremy, he'll be able to answer all your driveline related questions for sure and their great to deal with.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 6,999
Likes: 1,685
From: Southeast TX
I'm no tuner. The way I understand it is they limit timing based on intake air temps. When you're in boost and the meth system is doing its job, the meth will make the intake air temps cold. If the meth system quits working, IAT's will shoot up and the ECM should immediately pull timing. There may be some fuel enrichment that also is commanded under those circumstances. Ask your questions over on the forced induction page. Lots of guys with lots of experience there. Some also do their own tuning.
Thread Starter
Intermediate
Joined: Jul 2022
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From: Destin Florida
Ok i was wrong. I had mistakenly found earlier the 2008 was still using the T56 trans. Seems like 08 was the year they moved to the TR6060. Cant hurt nothing for an input shaft and a new driveshaft. Shouldn't hit the wallet to hard either.
Appreciate the info as always StayinStock
Appreciate the info as always StayinStock
Le Mans Master
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 6,337
Likes: 5,115
From: Charles Town WV
2024 Corvette of the Year Finalist - Modified
2023 C6 of the Year Winner - Modified
2022 C6 of the Year Finalist - Modified
Yeah dont quote me but pretty sure all 08 up cars should be a TR6060
Thread Starter
Intermediate
Joined: Jul 2022
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From: Destin Florida
Question for you cause i just got some new info from the previous owner. Im trying to get all the info i can on the car before i drive it once its built so i asked "what meth mix did you run". To which he replied "oh i never used the meth, didnt feel like i needed the extra HP". He believed the meth was like a wet shot and mechanically initiated. This leads me to believe that for the 1000 miles he drove the car he never refilled the meth tank and thats what caused the failure.
Does this theory make sense to yall?
Does this theory make sense to yall?