Budget high hp motor?
12-21-2017, 02:42 PM
#1
Budget high hp motor?
i am going to do the Cunningham drop in piston and rod combo along with a cam kit, dod delete, cam phase lock, lt4 head gaskets and head studs,
i have twin 62’s and port injection running e85. I plan on turning it right up to 1khp and creeping up a little higher over time.
My question is what else should I considering doing while I have the motor out of the car?
i have twin 62’s and port injection running e85. I plan on turning it right up to 1khp and creeping up a little higher over time.
My question is what else should I considering doing while I have the motor out of the car?
12-22-2017, 09:46 PM
#3
This is actually for a Camaro but I thought I might get some more responses over here. What started all of this is I am putting a circle d converter in the car and if I am pulling the turbo kit and trans I thought I would take care of some other things.
The trans is going to Stephen at 42autosports to get done whatever it is he does. He says they have some cars over 1200rwhp with their trans upgrades.
The trans is going to Stephen at 42autosports to get done whatever it is he does. He says they have some cars over 1200rwhp with their trans upgrades.
12-26-2017, 11:15 AM
#4
Instructor
If you have it that far apart already, you may as well get the heads ported.
I've not read up on, or been involved with the LT specific builds enough to be considered any kind of expert (armchair or otherwise) but in forced induction builds I've been around or involved with on other engines headwork always paid dividends before the specific output (HP/L, HP/CI) you're describing.
If you plan on staying on that power for any length of time, at a time, you may want to talk to Ferrea or someone like them about a valve material upgrade (Inconel exhaust valves perhaps?).
I know you said "budget," but I'm looking at it from a "spend your money once" perspective.
You may find the factory valves sufficient for your power level, and I'm sure someone will say that port work isn't "necessary" at your power level, but you asked what else should you "consider" and those are two things I believe you should think about before screwing it back together.
Valve erosion will drop power, a dropped valve at those levels will cause far worse than a mere power reduction.
Good luck and I look forward to seeing what else is recommended.
I've not read up on, or been involved with the LT specific builds enough to be considered any kind of expert (armchair or otherwise) but in forced induction builds I've been around or involved with on other engines headwork always paid dividends before the specific output (HP/L, HP/CI) you're describing.
If you plan on staying on that power for any length of time, at a time, you may want to talk to Ferrea or someone like them about a valve material upgrade (Inconel exhaust valves perhaps?).
I know you said "budget," but I'm looking at it from a "spend your money once" perspective.
You may find the factory valves sufficient for your power level, and I'm sure someone will say that port work isn't "necessary" at your power level, but you asked what else should you "consider" and those are two things I believe you should think about before screwing it back together.
Valve erosion will drop power, a dropped valve at those levels will cause far worse than a mere power reduction.
Good luck and I look forward to seeing what else is recommended.
The following users liked this post:
parish8 (12-26-2017)
12-26-2017, 11:37 AM
#5
Melting Slicks
"budget" to me is "free"
Many are using 02-04+ LS engines to handle 500-700 horsepower
Stock bottom end reliability list in several places on the internet.
One "budget" combo consist of "free" ($200-$500) Longblocks from local junkyard which perhaps hold 500~ rwhp each for 20-50k miles. Pick up a few spares. Do all maintenance items (gaskets, head work, oil pump basically). Swap and go.
A 4l80e from an 04 van, and an S364 of course for the 500+ mark to the tires.
images for fun
No need in 2018 to spend $$$ on engine mods if the goal is a lowly, mere 500-600 rwhp.
You say 1k HP and I can only imagine the cost of going from 600 or 700 to 1k, you must be prepared to spend twenty or thirty times the money for that couple hundred HP.
I think that for street cars, 600 is just as effective as 1000, if you focus the real $$$ on traction control strategy and cooling.
Many are using 02-04+ LS engines to handle 500-700 horsepower
Stock bottom end reliability list in several places on the internet.
One "budget" combo consist of "free" ($200-$500) Longblocks from local junkyard which perhaps hold 500~ rwhp each for 20-50k miles. Pick up a few spares. Do all maintenance items (gaskets, head work, oil pump basically). Swap and go.
A 4l80e from an 04 van, and an S364 of course for the 500+ mark to the tires.
images for fun
No need in 2018 to spend $$$ on engine mods if the goal is a lowly, mere 500-600 rwhp.
You say 1k HP and I can only imagine the cost of going from 600 or 700 to 1k, you must be prepared to spend twenty or thirty times the money for that couple hundred HP.
I think that for street cars, 600 is just as effective as 1000, if you focus the real $$$ on traction control strategy and cooling.
Last edited by Kingtal0n; 12-26-2017 at 12:18 PM.
12-26-2017, 04:04 PM
#6
Instructor
ask Ryne
Don't ask us, ask Ryne Cunningham, he is one of the top tuners in the world and companys in the world. Im sure he will tell you everything you need to do
12-26-2017, 06:56 PM
#7
If you have it that far apart already, you may as well get the heads ported.
I've not read up on, or been involved with the LT specific builds enough to be considered any kind of expert (armchair or otherwise) but in forced induction builds I've been around or involved with on other engines headwork always paid dividends before the specific output (HP/L, HP/CI) you're describing.
If you plan on staying on that power for any length of time, at a time, you may want to talk to Ferrea or someone like them about a valve material upgrade (Inconel exhaust valves perhaps?).
I know you said "budget," but I'm looking at it from a "spend your money once" perspective.
You may find the factory valves sufficient for your power level, and I'm sure someone will say that port work isn't "necessary" at your power level, but you asked what else should you "consider" and those are two things I believe you should think about before screwing it back together.
Valve erosion will drop power, a dropped valve at those levels will cause far worse than a mere power reduction.
Good luck and I look forward to seeing what else is recommended.
I've not read up on, or been involved with the LT specific builds enough to be considered any kind of expert (armchair or otherwise) but in forced induction builds I've been around or involved with on other engines headwork always paid dividends before the specific output (HP/L, HP/CI) you're describing.
If you plan on staying on that power for any length of time, at a time, you may want to talk to Ferrea or someone like them about a valve material upgrade (Inconel exhaust valves perhaps?).
I know you said "budget," but I'm looking at it from a "spend your money once" perspective.
You may find the factory valves sufficient for your power level, and I'm sure someone will say that port work isn't "necessary" at your power level, but you asked what else should you "consider" and those are two things I believe you should think about before screwing it back together.
Valve erosion will drop power, a dropped valve at those levels will cause far worse than a mere power reduction.
Good luck and I look forward to seeing what else is recommended.
I plan on asking Cunningham lots of questions once I know what to ask. he may hear my plans and talk me into something completely different.
12-26-2017, 07:14 PM
#8
"budget" to me is "free"
Many are using 02-04+ LS engines to handle 500-700 horsepower
Stock bottom end reliability list in several places on the internet.
One "budget" combo consist of "free" ($200-$500) Longblocks from local junkyard which perhaps hold 500~ rwhp each for 20-50k miles. Pick up a few spares. Do all maintenance items (gaskets, head work, oil pump basically). Swap and go.
A 4l80e from an 04 van, and an S364 of course for the 500+ mark to the tires.
images for fun
No need in 2018 to spend $$$ on engine mods if the goal is a lowly, mere 500-600 rwhp.
You say 1k HP and I can only imagine the cost of going from 600 or 700 to 1k, you must be prepared to spend twenty or thirty times the money for that couple hundred HP.
I think that for street cars, 600 is just as effective as 1000, if you focus the real $$$ on traction control strategy and cooling.
Many are using 02-04+ LS engines to handle 500-700 horsepower
Stock bottom end reliability list in several places on the internet.
One "budget" combo consist of "free" ($200-$500) Longblocks from local junkyard which perhaps hold 500~ rwhp each for 20-50k miles. Pick up a few spares. Do all maintenance items (gaskets, head work, oil pump basically). Swap and go.
A 4l80e from an 04 van, and an S364 of course for the 500+ mark to the tires.
images for fun
No need in 2018 to spend $$$ on engine mods if the goal is a lowly, mere 500-600 rwhp.
You say 1k HP and I can only imagine the cost of going from 600 or 700 to 1k, you must be prepared to spend twenty or thirty times the money for that couple hundred HP.
I think that for street cars, 600 is just as effective as 1000, if you focus the real $$$ on traction control strategy and cooling.
I built the turbo kit to handle 1200+, I built the fuel system to handle 1200+. I am currently at 750+ on a stock motor and am being told that is where I should stop until I beef it up a little. I am working on traction.
budget to me is not spending $15k on a all out 416 when $4k on a basic motor build will get me 80% of the way to the 416 power. a few more bucks on top of the $4k wont kill me and that is why I am asking what else I should consider.
12-27-2017, 10:50 AM
#9
Melting Slicks
Ah, So you are going from Free -> to slightly expensive.
Tough to say, as many who break parts at 1200+ don't post or share the 'fix' because it cost them $$ to find out what breaks.
glad to see you have it right in the head, though
Here are some general ideas for when trying to "throw money" into a turbo build:
1. Coating and wraps (including certain piston coatings)
2. Shields and Blankets, ducts and doorways (I like to get creative with stealth ductwork)
3. multiple IAT sensors, loggers, and an injection system of some kind depending on the fuel (meth when using 93, nitrous when using e85 ) also 100% distilled water is useful cleaning the engine and lowering exhaust gas temperature at a moments notice for "free" (water is free)
4. Oil pressure/wideband logger is a must for built $$ engines IMO
5. Traction control system (computer aided to soften the onset or reduce wheelspin on a handy dial)
6. failsafes for fuel/oil pressure
7. block girdles/strength centered around the crankshaft area (look at toyota 2jz engine style girdle fwiw)
8. while the engine is out you can make custom brackets and add shielding to areas behind the engine nobody will ever see. I use heavy insulation in the trans-tunnel. This is a good time to hide wiring and hide that nitrous line... (I Never want anyone to see that nitrous line)
9. custom cooling loops: Sometimes the underhood temps get too high in turbo builds. A small isolated cooling loop of 100% water circulating around the top of the engine is an alternative to making holes or ducts to other places in the car. Also I consider custom heat sinks as an option some places.
Im sure you alrdy have huge oil cooler w/ thermostat so I won't even mention it
Just trying to give some ideas brother, good luck
Tough to say, as many who break parts at 1200+ don't post or share the 'fix' because it cost them $$ to find out what breaks.
glad to see you have it right in the head, though
Here are some general ideas for when trying to "throw money" into a turbo build:
1. Coating and wraps (including certain piston coatings)
2. Shields and Blankets, ducts and doorways (I like to get creative with stealth ductwork)
3. multiple IAT sensors, loggers, and an injection system of some kind depending on the fuel (meth when using 93, nitrous when using e85 ) also 100% distilled water is useful cleaning the engine and lowering exhaust gas temperature at a moments notice for "free" (water is free)
4. Oil pressure/wideband logger is a must for built $$ engines IMO
5. Traction control system (computer aided to soften the onset or reduce wheelspin on a handy dial)
6. failsafes for fuel/oil pressure
7. block girdles/strength centered around the crankshaft area (look at toyota 2jz engine style girdle fwiw)
8. while the engine is out you can make custom brackets and add shielding to areas behind the engine nobody will ever see. I use heavy insulation in the trans-tunnel. This is a good time to hide wiring and hide that nitrous line... (I Never want anyone to see that nitrous line)
9. custom cooling loops: Sometimes the underhood temps get too high in turbo builds. A small isolated cooling loop of 100% water circulating around the top of the engine is an alternative to making holes or ducts to other places in the car. Also I consider custom heat sinks as an option some places.
Im sure you alrdy have huge oil cooler w/ thermostat so I won't even mention it
Just trying to give some ideas brother, good luck
Last edited by Kingtal0n; 12-27-2017 at 11:03 AM.
01-30-2018, 05:06 AM
#12
Le Mans Master
better computer.
I'd like to see another set of injectors doing the direct port alchy under control of a haltech, MS3, or whatever controller you favor
doesn't have to be a fancy one, you are only shooting fuel and monitoring a wb
leave the factory computer intact
I'd also spend money on a good exhaust and I agree on the head porting
anything you do to make the engine more efficient helps the turbos make more power at less boost which is a good thing
for clutch, try a mantic out, but you likely are getting to the threshold of a triple disk and eventually you will get sick of breaking stuff and here is where it gets interesting on the c7
the a8 handles 750 out of the box and is pretty strong, but honestly it might be "too new" to hop up over 1k. I don't have any expertise with that tranny but I'd sure like to hear from those that do!!!
Since you a a Camaro, consider an auto swap to put that power down better, you can use a 10 spd but again, maybe not able to beef to where you need. or you can run a 480LE which can be beefed up just fine, but it's heavy and soaks up HP more than the 10 spd which shifts pretty nifty.
seats! get some comfy seats that you can take corners and not be fighting to stay behind the wheel
roll bar~! I assume you will be testing all those ponies, you want to walk away if they throw you, there are old pilots and bolt pilots, no need to be bold here, spend some $ on safety. (scattershield, driveshaft hoop, good rear axle will be expensive for this HP level!)
super cool car, lets see it!
I'd like to see another set of injectors doing the direct port alchy under control of a haltech, MS3, or whatever controller you favor
doesn't have to be a fancy one, you are only shooting fuel and monitoring a wb
leave the factory computer intact
I'd also spend money on a good exhaust and I agree on the head porting
anything you do to make the engine more efficient helps the turbos make more power at less boost which is a good thing
for clutch, try a mantic out, but you likely are getting to the threshold of a triple disk and eventually you will get sick of breaking stuff and here is where it gets interesting on the c7
the a8 handles 750 out of the box and is pretty strong, but honestly it might be "too new" to hop up over 1k. I don't have any expertise with that tranny but I'd sure like to hear from those that do!!!
Since you a a Camaro, consider an auto swap to put that power down better, you can use a 10 spd but again, maybe not able to beef to where you need. or you can run a 480LE which can be beefed up just fine, but it's heavy and soaks up HP more than the 10 spd which shifts pretty nifty.
seats! get some comfy seats that you can take corners and not be fighting to stay behind the wheel
roll bar~! I assume you will be testing all those ponies, you want to walk away if they throw you, there are old pilots and bolt pilots, no need to be bold here, spend some $ on safety. (scattershield, driveshaft hoop, good rear axle will be expensive for this HP level!)
super cool car, lets see it!
01-30-2018, 05:13 AM
#13
Le Mans Master
if you are open to an engine swap here is my "Joe Dirt" recommendation that will last
I have a 4.8 iron block, bored .20, wiseco pistons, gen 4 rods with sps bolts, stock crank
this combo will be "pushed" at your power level so I'd throw some studs in the bottom, but I'm going to run lil thumper and see if it will hold 1k for a while
the short block cost me 1200 to freshen up with one new piston, balance, rings, bearings and the bores were honed. came out really nice! for heads, run the 799 with truck valves (iconel from the factory)
the small bore limits the valve sizes a bit but the block is super beefy and allows some "boost compensation" even though heads are down on flow
"lil thumper" bleeds off a bit of low end torq to allow the car to hook and then puts out 900 at the tires which is a challenge to hook.
If you need more, let's talk. I have a turbo engine complete and ready to go.
I have a 4.8 iron block, bored .20, wiseco pistons, gen 4 rods with sps bolts, stock crank
this combo will be "pushed" at your power level so I'd throw some studs in the bottom, but I'm going to run lil thumper and see if it will hold 1k for a while
the short block cost me 1200 to freshen up with one new piston, balance, rings, bearings and the bores were honed. came out really nice! for heads, run the 799 with truck valves (iconel from the factory)
the small bore limits the valve sizes a bit but the block is super beefy and allows some "boost compensation" even though heads are down on flow
"lil thumper" bleeds off a bit of low end torq to allow the car to hook and then puts out 900 at the tires which is a challenge to hook.
If you need more, let's talk. I have a turbo engine complete and ready to go.
01-31-2018, 12:35 AM
#14
Melting Slicks
Theres a guy offering $5000 to someone making 1k rwhp with gen4 rods
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/sh...2&postcount=33
Apparently, its "impossible". Whats really happening is your "750" is somebody's 500. And your 1000rwhp is really 750. etc... depends on the dyno. So anyone coming in here saying "1k hp" or "I can make 1200" without mentioning what kind of dynometer is full of blissful dyno ignorance
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/sh...2&postcount=33
Apparently, its "impossible". Whats really happening is your "750" is somebody's 500. And your 1000rwhp is really 750. etc... depends on the dyno. So anyone coming in here saying "1k hp" or "I can make 1200" without mentioning what kind of dynometer is full of blissful dyno ignorance
02-03-2018, 04:27 PM
#15
better computer.
I'd like to see another set of injectors doing the direct port alchy under control of a haltech, MS3, or whatever controller you favor
doesn't have to be a fancy one, you are only shooting fuel and monitoring a wb
leave the factory computer intact
I'd also spend money on a good exhaust and I agree on the head porting
anything you do to make the engine more efficient helps the turbos make more power at less boost which is a good thing
for clutch, try a mantic out, but you likely are getting to the threshold of a triple disk and eventually you will get sick of breaking stuff and here is where it gets interesting on the c7
the a8 handles 750 out of the box and is pretty strong, but honestly it might be "too new" to hop up over 1k. I don't have any expertise with that tranny but I'd sure like to hear from those that do!!!
Since you a a Camaro, consider an auto swap to put that power down better, you can use a 10 spd but again, maybe not able to beef to where you need. or you can run a 480LE which can be beefed up just fine, but it's heavy and soaks up HP more than the 10 spd which shifts pretty nifty.
seats! get some comfy seats that you can take corners and not be fighting to stay behind the wheel
roll bar~! I assume you will be testing all those ponies, you want to walk away if they throw you, there are old pilots and bolt pilots, no need to be bold here, spend some $ on safety. (scattershield, driveshaft hoop, good rear axle will be expensive for this HP level!)
super cool car, lets see it!
I'd like to see another set of injectors doing the direct port alchy under control of a haltech, MS3, or whatever controller you favor
doesn't have to be a fancy one, you are only shooting fuel and monitoring a wb
leave the factory computer intact
I'd also spend money on a good exhaust and I agree on the head porting
anything you do to make the engine more efficient helps the turbos make more power at less boost which is a good thing
for clutch, try a mantic out, but you likely are getting to the threshold of a triple disk and eventually you will get sick of breaking stuff and here is where it gets interesting on the c7
the a8 handles 750 out of the box and is pretty strong, but honestly it might be "too new" to hop up over 1k. I don't have any expertise with that tranny but I'd sure like to hear from those that do!!!
Since you a a Camaro, consider an auto swap to put that power down better, you can use a 10 spd but again, maybe not able to beef to where you need. or you can run a 480LE which can be beefed up just fine, but it's heavy and soaks up HP more than the 10 spd which shifts pretty nifty.
seats! get some comfy seats that you can take corners and not be fighting to stay behind the wheel
roll bar~! I assume you will be testing all those ponies, you want to walk away if they throw you, there are old pilots and bolt pilots, no need to be bold here, spend some $ on safety. (scattershield, driveshaft hoop, good rear axle will be expensive for this HP level!)
super cool car, lets see it!
for racing I plan on running just a couple feet of exhaust after the turbos. here are some pics and here is a video of that tablet gauges. you can configure the tablet gauges anyway you can imagine.
Last edited by parish8; 02-03-2018 at 04:39 PM.
02-03-2018, 04:45 PM
#16
i am moving along with my budget build. this might interest some people.
rods and pistons were $2400
cam kit, dod kit, vvt lock kit, head studs, lt4 head gaskets, crank bolt added up to $1500
ring file tool, ring compressor, break in oil, bead hone total about $200
i had a ring expander and a home made valve spring tool.
total of around $4100. i will come post up dyno numbers and et's once i start seeing some results.
rods and pistons were $2400
cam kit, dod kit, vvt lock kit, head studs, lt4 head gaskets, crank bolt added up to $1500
ring file tool, ring compressor, break in oil, bead hone total about $200
i had a ring expander and a home made valve spring tool.
total of around $4100. i will come post up dyno numbers and et's once i start seeing some results.
Last edited by parish8; 02-03-2018 at 04:54 PM.