not everybody has graduated from master of science in engineering yet,
these are skills and tools necessary to become an engineer, to calculate the exact number of moles in a substance is crucial science, the exact Joules or Watts or other units is center dimensional analysis beginner tool freshman are exposed to and all need to master by the end of school to be successful in almost any field.

Thus when they design beams to withstand some amount of force with n safety factor, it is these type of exact calculations that are performance which determine the material used.
When chemists calculate the number of moles to determine the number of grams necessary these similar calculations are done.
It is a very exact number, in energy, moles, mass, etc...
Due to the exact nature of calculations, often a model needs to be created. For example combustion engines are done using a model. Not a single calculation but a computer program now with hundred thousands or millions of lines of code keeping track of many variables.
Luckily reactions like evaporation and condensation are very small and simple, one equation examples can be performed easily,


I did a bunch of meth calcs a while back using scientific dimensional analysis (by hand) to determine the temperature difference due to complete evaporation of 100% methanol. And since these calculations are so frequently needed by engineers, they sometimes depend heavily on engineering calculators, for example I quickly was able to check my work using one:


The super-specific engineering calculators do serve a utility as work-checkers however I would caution anybody from using one without checking the calculations manually on paper also. In order to establish any measure of credibility I would expect anybody posting such calculation to provide both as I have here.

This is undeniable every day engineering application mathematics at work, and very basic, no model to concern with, so the answer is very direct.

 

Cool, literally.

Boosted setups run much higher iats than 80* though so the benefits are greater than your scratch pad is leading on. It still dropped iats in your example by 27%. Does the heat exchange maintain the same linear cooling effect as iats rise? If so, 27% off of 250* is quite a large drop and is why meth is injected. How about 300+*? I doubt it's linear and I bet it cools more the hotter the intake charge gets.

 

Ok so you couldn’t find any real world dyno examples of water cooling IATS more then Meth. So I’ll stick with 100% M1 Meth, thanks.

 

Wow i guess i need to go back to school to understand the cooling and octane gains with these formulas. I'll stick to what i've been doing for 12 yrs. !00% meth low warning light comes on fill, up tank go have fun. I run 2 -15gpm nozzles and i have never drained meth in winter. This is what's confusing is i have not maintained the pump yet. If it's not broke don't fix it. I do have very aggressive tune if something goes wrong. I'm running 26bls boost Over 1000hp. Just my 2 cents I'll let guys know on my next run when the weather gets good here in chicago that i blow up my engine because i just jinxed myself.

 

When your cars are bigger alcoholics than most people are, you have a 55 gallon drum sitting in the garage🤣.

 

I agree on the 55 gal set up. Robert

 

Love it when meth tank is bigger then water heater tank.

 

1. water puts out fires so why would I look for a dyno graph to show off water... that doesn't make sense
2. Water is not useful for cooling IAT. I never said that and never will.
3. No meth injection system manufacturer recommends 100% methanol for street vehicles because it burns with an invisible flame and tends to leak out

Its your life.
If you want to learn about the effects of water you need to read. Start with WW2 documents which is where water injection was originally developed, for air planes.
Methanol is something we added much much later. The original intention of these systems was 100% water injection.

 

high IAT is not an issue when the fuel octane is also high. E85 supercharged/turbochargered setups run best, fastest, without intercooling.
intercooling and reducing IAT has no performance benefit beyond protecting the engine by trashing thermal energy.

 

Couple things to consider here actually, its a good question thanks for asking,

1. Consider the mass flow in my calculation, is a naturally aspirated airflow rate around 400whp. Most boosted setups run much larger airflow rates (double+)
so you should immediately see that my calculation would be cut in half at traditional airflow rates for forced induction (Maybe 12*F temp drop at 200cc/min 100% methanol? )
2. More importantly: Methanol can only produce the resulting "heat of vaporization" that the calculations predict when it transitions from liquid -> gas state.
That means nozzle atomization/fogging will work against IAT cooling.
In other words, an nozzle which can effectively break apart mass of liquid Methanol into smaller molecules will have already provided some energy necessary to transition the liquid to a gas state. To put this one more way, A nozzle at high pressure will provide energy (Pressure, friction -> heat, atomization) to the liquid which is held together by cohesive intermolecular forces, those forces can be broken apart by high temperature OR high energy input such as from a nozzle. So if you inject methanol and strongly atomize it to reduce the intermolecular forces by breaking apart the methanol atoms into individual or near individual gas state cohesive elements, the methanol can not longer apply it's heat of vaporization to cool anything because its already become a gas molecule due to the high energy input of the nozzle.
3. When methanol evaporates it becomes a gas molecule. One methanol molecule as a gas state takes up the same amount of space as one oxygen O2 molecule, in classical physics 1 Mole of any gas at Standard temp/pressure is equal to 22.4Liters.
So for every methanol molecule that evaporates you are displacing 1 Nitrogen N2 (% in air) or 1 Oxygen O2 (% in air) thus lowering the density of air proportionately.
4. Check how humidity affects air density and consider that water molecules, methanol molecules, and Oxygen O2 molecules all have the same gas state volume, so what I just said applies equally to water, methanol, gasoline, alcohol, etc...
5. Total mass flow rate of airflow determines potential for power, not temperature. Computers use airmass calculations because temperature is factored into the mass of airflow rate already. Let's use this to setup a simple demonstration of why hotter air = more power, and then provide real world examples.

Start by defining an mass flow rate, lets use 50lb/min (500bhp worth of airflow) using a turbocharger and unlimited fuel octane quality (no fuel issues).
Lets say an engine is 5L and it can flow 50lb/min of airflow at 15psi when the Intake manifold air temp is 100*F
The engine has an A2A intercooler, so lets remove that and see what happens.
In this example, when we remove the intercooler, now the intake manifold temp shoots up to lets say 200*F.
Heres the TRICK, watch closely now: The compressor was held to 15psi of boost because the WASTEGATE does not care about temperature or flow rate, it only can limit pressure. The increase in IAT -> caused an increase in pressure -> Which caused the wastegate to REMOVE POWER and FLOW by reducing the pressure in the manifold. So this happens:
A. power drops significantly (It looks like removing the intercooler takes away power)
B. impeller RPM drops at compressor wheel
C. Mass flow rate drops throughout the system (we no longer flow 50lb/min, its less than that now)

However, if we correct the flow rate by adjusting the wastegate to achieve the necessary boost pressure which can mirror previous impeller RPM, this is what would happen instead:
A. Power increases slightly (it looks like removing the intercooler added some HP)
B. Impeller RPM is brought back to the same velocity as previously, but at a higher pressure ratio (more boost, same flow rate in mass, higher Temp)
C. Mass flow rate stays roughly the same because we only turned the boost back up to mitigate the loss of air density due to removing the intercooler, no extra was added.

To put this into words, I'll quote the engineer who said it first: " An engine will make the most power with the largest mass of hot-as-possible air"
In other words, heat is energy and removing heat (via any method) is throwing away energy which will always reduce power (when fuel quality is unlimited).
= The reason all turbo factory cars (nearly) come with intercoolers is to protect the engine, not provide power.
= The reason people debate constantly about whether to intercooler or not (as you will see in a minute) is because they are weighing the safety of cooler air vs the power robbing and weight savings potential of removing the intercooler.

What this boils down to for most street cars is you NEED an intercooler for forced induction to create any measure of safety/sanity for the engine, it is highly recommended.

... And for Dedicated race cars owned by highly skilled professionals, running without an intercooler is a way to increase power because they have the experience and equipment to maintain such bleeding edge performance vehicles.


Now, on with the show of real world examples in no particular order for 1000-2500whp setups:

-----
Chris’s S10 was the SBE LS record holder for some time. He ran a 5.3 twin S366 setup at well over 30lbs. Wanting to say up to 36lbs? without an IC. No water/meth injection either.
https://www.yellowbullet.com/threads.../post-66308458

-----
Done it for years. Been 34+ psi on pump e85 no intercooler.

Its now a 6.0 liter ls with twin s366s @3250lbs.
4.9s@142, 7.75@175

Obviously use something if you have space. Mine is tight on room so i dont have anything. Its been hot air for years, won alot of races and its reliable so dont let anyone tell you it cant be done.
https://www.yellowbullet.com/threads.../post-66348170
-----

Much of the benefit from an alcohol fuel happens in the chamber.
Hot air setups work with alcohol fuels for this very reason.
An efi car will see high iat's but will still be happy if you give it enough fuel and keep the timing conservative.
https://www.yellowbullet.com/threads.../post-45122530

----
Chris Bishor runs the twin turbo square body silver S10, he's non-intercooled on E85 (no meth injection) and sees 280-300*+ IAT and has no reliability issues.
https://www.yellowbullet.com/threads.../post-45125290

------

I'm changing my combo this winter and was planning to go with E85 for cost and to eliminate the intercooler.
https://www.yellowbullet.com/threads...n-efi.1665570/
-----

No intercooler.....been 5.70's in a 3400lb car.

I just don't lean on the timing much. Don't pay attention to the inlet temps...they will freak you out.

I've tuned 3 other non-intercooled E85 EFI setups like this....no issues for any of them.
https://www.yellowbullet.com/threads.../post-12249946

-------
I removed the intercooler over the winter and run E85 also.
It picked up a couple # of boost and made more power.
I retuned to run it at the rich best torque number of .72 lambda at max boost to get the most latent heat cooling.
https://www.yellowbullet.com/threads...0/post-6551737
-----

I always go back to the NMRA Renegade class, those guys used to be limited to no intercoolers and they could run as fast as 8.70's........so I figure if they can get away with 300 inlet temps, than my car would have no issues as long as I keep the run safe, especially using e85.
https://www.yellowbullet.com/threads...2/post-5127391

------------
Since I posted on this thread last March I removed the intercooler and ran the same E85 fuel.
The first thing I found was the motor picked up 2# boost and made more power.
I ran it all season that way. It's a monster at 30# boost...2000 hp.
Didn't have any problems running without the intercooler other than the boat is about out of control with that much tq.
https://www.yellowbullet.com/threads...2/post-7988628


And so forth....

 

Every one of your posts you just linked circled around wanting the cooling of the air charge. Not a single sole said they wanted hot intake air as your engineer quote says it makes the most power. Some choose to sacrifice no ic and substitute additional fuel to help cool in the chamber. Then there was some talk of moving the injectors higher in the runners to help with cooling the charge.

The boost gains mentioned with ic's removed were just dah moments where the user realized that the ic manufacturer was right that their core actually does have a 1-2psi drop just like the literature says.

You just disproved the whole book you wrote up there with links you provided as those users are still trying to cool the charge but they're doing it in a less traditional fashion🤦‍♂️.

Cooling the charge makes a significant power difference whether it's measured by the iat sensor or it happens after the sensor and isn't measured.

Back on topic, I don't prefer to buy kits with meth systems. I piece them together as necessary. I like hobbs switch controlled nozzles for some things and progressive controllers for others. Most vendors have the same equipment just rebranded so any one of them will work just fine. I prefer solenoids over check valves as there is more control on shutdown when coming out of power. And I always spray 100% methanol for 2 reasons, water in large volumes can cause bucking and a 50/50 mix is still flammable as the meth will still ignite and burn leaving the water behind. Boost on and stay cool😎

 

I see real world results with cars going fastest without intercooling. To get the most from any setup means maximum risk which means minimal energy extraction.

Of course everybody wants cold IAT, who doesn't want that?
I am not suggesting anybody use a high IAT to make power. It is not safe.

I AM showing that according to the book of thermodynamics, fluid mechanics, and fluid dynamics:
1. all power plants in the world run the highest possible safe temperature, whether turbine or combustion piston, because higher temperatures improve efficiency
2. all auto manufacturers use insulation, such as plastic intakes and thick wall cast iron manifolds, plastic panels, underhood insulation, etc.. because heat is energy and maintaining it is fundamental to economy and efficiency. All serious racing engines use ceramic coatings, exhaust blankets/wrap, to maintain exhaust gas energy.
3. According to the fluid mechanics book, The work done by any kind of centrifugal pump is diminished by the total volume of fluid between the outlet and receiving end of pump flow;
That is, according to physics, the larger the intercooler volume, the larger the plumbing volume in general (doesn't matter if its intercooler volume or pipe) the more energy is lost from the pump and less fluid flow rate will be available at the end of the pipe. With a long (or large) enough pipe, there won't be any flow at the end at all. So, the more intercooler, the less flow, the less power.
To get the flow rate back up, will take more impeller RPM. There is always a catch.


IAT doesn't make power. Compressor mass flow rate makes power. Mass flow rate increases when IAT drops at any specific wheel velocity because of denser air but this cannot be done post-compressor without also increasing the post compressor volume and creating a (larger) pressure drop.

In other words, compressor flow rates are given in CFM not MASS. They offer a volume flow rate so temperature adjustments PRE and POST compressor both have an influence on air density. It makes sense to start with the lowest Temp possible, however, once the compressor has imparted kinetic energy to the air molecules, anything done post compressor, any length of tube or structure, any corners, any distance of travel, will gradually sap the kinetic energy out of those air molecules and they will eventually lose it all.
Just imagine a compressor style fan spinning, you can feel the air very strongly up close, but the farther you get away from it, the weaker the flow gets.
Turbocharger compressors are the same way, the farther you get from the compressor the weaker the push. This is why people kill for short tight intercooler plumbing and would remove the intercooler if they can.

Pressure is a vectorless unit, it exists in all directions, like in a tire at rest. The air molecules bounce at random from the container and keep the tire inflated due to elastic collisions.
In a fluid flow where pressure is being increased at the same time the fluid is being moved more quickly, the situation is different. There is still a directionless pressure gradient which can be measured (e.g. 3-bar map sensor) but there is also the motion of the fluid, moving towards the engine as a column of air to consider. The moving column experiences friction, especially near the walls of the plumbing where it can form a boundary layer and may display other characteristics such as eddy formation and turbulence which can dramatically alter flow rate. So there isn't any really clear cut way to say what will happen in ALL plumbing systems; we take them one at a time.
The most perfect system utilizes the minimum volume between compressor and engine, to reduce friction. It would also prefer a perfect intercooler, that is one which can cool the air without impeding it's kinetic energy investments, due mainly to friction.

Bottom line is I will simply tell everyone how to use aux injection properly and leave it at that.
How to use meth/water injection properly:
0. if its a street car, 49% methanol is max concentration due to safety concerns. End of story on that end. All kits recommend this.
1. If the engine is forged with a large piston wall clearance and will tolerate high temperatures, race fuel C16 and aux meth injection are ideal because they will not cool very well, race fuel because of low heat of vaporization and meth injection because low flow rate i.e. ~300cc/min is negligible cooling effect volume at typical forced induction flow rates (70lb/min+)
2. If the engine has a cast piston, being run on 93 octane gasoline, then water is essential after approx ~200hp/Liter or ~900bhp which ever comes first. High output engines with cast pistons focus strongly on cooling the piston. most turbo engines use piston oil squirts for this reason. Aux water injection is key to keeping them safe and cool to that end. The methanol concentration here doesn't matter as long as enough water is being used. And it doesn't take much water.

How do you know when you need more of either water or methanol?
- If EGT is very high, methanol won't cure that issue from aux injection systems, only water can do that, to protect the piston and combustion chamber components. Use more water to bring down EGT.
-If IAT is very high for some reason, the fuel octane needs to be increased. Methanol is a band-aid here but REALLY what you need is better intercooling.
-If the piston is forged it has less need for cooling. Forged low silicone alloy aluminum pistons require high temperatures to fully expand in the bore, and benefit from "hot fuels" such as C16 and gasoline. Methanol can raise the octane to make gasoline safe to use in this hot environment. Notice this has nothing to do with IAT.... You can have 100*F IAT and 1800*F piston and tear the top of the piston off with 100% methanol on top of C16 racing fuel... because the fuel quality and incoming air temp cannot stop the thermal expansion of internal moving parts which is causing them to fail.

The problem I see most is people focusing on the IAT which can be 100-300*F whereas the Piston can reach 2000*F and presents the real issue even in the face of perfect fuel quality. The bane of cast pistons is high temperature.
Ethanol (FULL E50+ spraying from all injectors) is injected as a liquid to the hot intake valve where it rapidly begins to boil I am sure. The valve opens and the rest of the fuel evaporates as the intake valve closes, pulling alot of heat away from the surrounding areas.
If the ethanol evaporates in the intake tract (blow through carb) There will be a IAT drop, but simultaneously this will increase the temp of the piston because now the Ethanol is cooling the intake air tract (the entire intake manifold and pipes) instead of the piston and chamber.
So it depends where you want to focus cooling efforts. Cast piston engines focus on their pistons. Forged piston engines use less water, or no water, with high octane fuels, and high piston temperatures, they can be more efficient and make more power with less risk at higher temps.
Any 1200hp cast piston engines depend heavily on the cooling from E85, are more likely to fail from injecting it farther from the intake valve because the thing that is going to kill the engine is piston temp, not IAT.

 

Some people just love to hear themselves talk. Ok then back on topic, so as per the OPs question Meth kit pumps will last much longer pumping water then pure meth. Alky control has great customer support I can’t speak to other kits as I’ve only used the Alky kit.

 

I teach at local university, engineering/chemistry/math

To me this is no different, I put these words for people who DON'T post to read, some years later

These topics are trivial , for novices:
1. A2A Intercoolers reduce power under typical (atmospheric... Earthly) conditions and only service to protect an engine from volatile fuel
2. Water is the only aux (low flow rate) injection capable of reducing piston temperature and EGT for cast piston engines successfully
3. Methanol is a high octane racing fuel, but does little for cooling the engine's internal parts due to weak heat capacity compared with water
4. All gas state molecules take up the same amount of space, that is 22.4L per 1 mole, therefore the more methanol/water you inject the more you reduce air density.

people who have "looked it up" after research:
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...post1602517563

Just munch on the .gov for a minute

 

Just because you keep forgetting which side of the fence you want to stand on....

When you finish touting your occupation just remember, C16 is 117 octane and methanol is 110. Why would one pushing the limits purposely add a lesser octane fuel into the mix??

Methanol cools the charge and helps to keep knock at bay better than true race gas. You get the best of both worlds when you use both. Water also cools the charge but it's never been as effective a straight methanol IN MY OWN EXPERIENCE. Also, large volumes of water injected can cause bucking. And lastly, mixing water and methanol doesn't remove the methanol's flammability. Meth will still light off and burn and leave the water behind.

 

Everyone get ready for the rambling reply of his great intellect.

 

[QUOTE=kywhitelightning;1603086827]Just because you keep forgetting which side of the fence you want to stand on....
Hah. Its my job to contradict myself and find the other side of the "fence" regardless of what the issue is.
In other words, if this thread was full of people saying that methanol is no good for cooling, I would find calculations and situations which prove it CAN be useful.
Likewise people here are saying how great methanol is for cooling, so now its my job to find situations where it ISN'T useful.

I always play devils advocate and reveal the "ugly" side, whichever side that is, because there is always un-told and un-seen truths which can help us understand and use these tools in a better way, even by examining the other side where nobody will ever go or impossible situations involving calculus, infinity, geometric series, etc...


I don't disparage or discern between the octane rating of powerful fuels such as C16 and Methanol/Ethanol because the majority of setups and individuals will NEVER find the limit of either fuel. The big difference between them in the energy content and vaporization behavior, not the fuel octane. You won't gain or lose significant power switching from one type of fuel to another unless the new fuel brings something besides a higher octane with it, octane alone can't make power, it kills power.
Octane rating 87 > 93 > 100 > etc... in terms of potential cylinder pressure and torque. This is a fundamental rule based on the octane rating system which is determined by running an engine to the point of knock at some steady state conditions. The engine knocks or pings because of pressure spikes due to the fuel reacting too quickly, and this is a chemical reaction where not only heat and pressure play a role in the reaction speed... But also steric hindrance and molecular accessibility.

example
2-2-4 trimethylpentane is 100 octane
n-heptane is 0 octane
Both fuels have similar makeup, same number of carbons, similar energy content in their bonds, the only major difference is in their shape. Thus the shape of the fuel molecule is an important feature when determining octane, more important than its energy content or number of carbons by a long shot.
n-heptane is ZERO octane because it is soo highly accessible. The oxygen radicals can 'attack' it from any angle.











Methanol IS a race gas. But aux injections don't spray nearly enough methanol to make it superior to running 100% race fuel. You are better off using 100% methanol.
But that comes with it's own slew of issues, volume flow rate is very high for example.
Otherwise, if you are saying a vehicle run on 100% meth (15,000cc/min+ or whatever) will make more power than a vehicle run on 100% C16 then I agree completely.

This is what I have been saying. Water is not good for cooling IAT. It is good for cooling the engine's internal parts. It is supposed to evaporate in the combustion chamber, not the intake tract. This is how water is intended to work since it was discovered for WW-2 aircraft.

Its easy to use too much water


We agree with everything you just seem to think I have a position behind some particular "fence" when I really am recommending the same thing that everybody wants: USE water injection, USE methanol injection, just use it right

 

Alcohol evaporates far more quickly than water can in atmospheric conditions,
which makes it briefly flammable instantly, the moment 49% alcohol is leaving rapidly I agree it can light off especially enclosed.
This is yet another reason I am so concerned, even the 49% Methanol juice is still very dangerous. Just imagine what 99% methanol can do if 49% is so dangerous.
Anyways, close proximity to the water will limit temperature increase, the alcohol is rapidly leaving water of 51% will dramatically help the situation more easily be contained and put out. And half as much alcohol per unit volume also helps.

As any alcohol exposed to air is immediately leaving and the water concentration climbs rapidly, eventually leaving only water.

We know this from partial pressures first,
And application where proper use of laboratory safety hoods, which are sterilize using 70% Alcohol and 30% H2O to kill microorganisms by disrupting cell exterior structures.
Novices would spray the safety surfaces with alcohol and then let it sit- assuming that the long lasting action of alcohol will be more effective than a wipe down and leave the station.
However what really happens is all the alcohol leaves quickly, even faster than in atmosphere due to pull of HEPA filter hood vent running continuously nearby, and you are left with a puddle of water and no alcohol, a suitable place to grow bacteria if some nutrition is added.

I found a video of the hood you can see what I'm talking about,
the spray is always 70% alcohol. I have 100% Alcohol non-denatured for scientific research, I use these and similar useful solvents, frequently and widely versed with their use, safety, application. I like Ethanol because it is safe to drink to contact with skin. But not methanol, which will produce formaldehyde when contact with the enzyme alcohol dehydrogenase anywhere. So, handle with gloves, do not breath especially. Powerful solvent. Will cause rust. I hear engines cylinder walls rust from using straight meth as a fuel. At least Im pretty sure it was methanol