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METHheadMONSTER: Using Meth Injection for non-boost applications
Thread Starter
Tech Contributor
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 12,094
Likes: 197
From: Colorado Springs, CO
St. Jude Donor '08-'09-'10-'11
Thanks Spin. Saving a few bucks was not a consideration in my post, simply that the controller looked more advanced and perhaps offered more features. I do appreciate that ECS has a great reputation and understand the importance of support. I did search the forum but found nothing much about AIS and their offerings, hence I asked.
Might be worth waiting for Juilo's new controller that I hope you offer to beta test.
...
Regards the IAT install. Do you have any pictures of where to install with a stock intake or even better with a Haltech Killer Bee? Or perhaps the idea is to use an ECS charge tube with an air filter in place of the inter-cooler.
Might be worth waiting for Juilo's new controller that I hope you offer to beta test.
...
Regards the IAT install. Do you have any pictures of where to install with a stock intake or even better with a Haltech Killer Bee? Or perhaps the idea is to use an ECS charge tube with an air filter in place of the inter-cooler.
As for the IAT sensor, you can buy an outboard IAT that is independent of the MAF case and put it donwstream of the MAF. Its a two wire solo mount piece and it mounts like a nitrous nozzle. You disconect the existing two gray wires from the MAF connector and connect them to the two wires on the downstream IAT mounted in a separate tube or in a smooth coupler that you replace the accordion with. Its a simple matter of a 4" diameter surface to mount it on.
Last edited by SpinMonster; Sep 28, 2009 at 08:33 AM.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 862
Likes: 0
From: Gaithersburg MD
Calibration of IAT
Is the transfer function of the IAT the same as the one included with the MAF? I don't see any way to calibrate the IAT voltage/resistance? vs. temperature in HPTuner.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 862
Likes: 0
From: Gaithersburg MD
MAP trigger of injection controller in NA applications
Spin you have me confused a little.
I did not think that the standard Alky Control product that ECS uses includes an RPM switch. In NA applications you must set the MAP trigger to below 1 bar cause that's all you ever see. So in NA applications the unit will come on when the ignition is on and engine not running because it will see 1 bar. I think the case of ignition on and engine not running is not so rare it happens during flash operations of the ECM which takes several minutes.
What am I missing?
I did not think that the standard Alky Control product that ECS uses includes an RPM switch. In NA applications you must set the MAP trigger to below 1 bar cause that's all you ever see. So in NA applications the unit will come on when the ignition is on and engine not running because it will see 1 bar. I think the case of ignition on and engine not running is not so rare it happens during flash operations of the ECM which takes several minutes.
What am I missing?
Safety Car
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,537
Likes: 1,403
From: Bethesda MD
Based on Julio's advice I would use the MAP for the trigger with an RPM on switch for low load use (not a window switch unless you set the high RPM off above the engines use range). High load will not output a voltage high enough to trigger the system as in JB's car. This will prevent the spraying of the system upon start-up. I will keep everyone current on the use of the experimental trigger.
Thread Starter
Tech Contributor
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 12,094
Likes: 197
From: Colorado Springs, CO
St. Jude Donor '08-'09-'10-'11
Spin you have me confused a little.
I did not think that the standard Alky Control product that ECS uses includes an RPM switch. In NA applications you must set the MAP trigger to below 1 bar cause that's all you ever see. So in NA applications the unit will come on when the ignition is on and engine not running because it will see 1 bar. I think the case of ignition on and engine not running is not so rare it happens during flash operations of the ECM which takes several minutes.
What am I missing?
I did not think that the standard Alky Control product that ECS uses includes an RPM switch. In NA applications you must set the MAP trigger to below 1 bar cause that's all you ever see. So in NA applications the unit will come on when the ignition is on and engine not running because it will see 1 bar. I think the case of ignition on and engine not running is not so rare it happens during flash operations of the ECM which takes several minutes.
What am I missing?
Normally the LS3 has a 1 BAR MAP sensor. To use the AlkyControl system with a supercharger, you would be using a 2 BAR MAP sensor and the the 2 BAR outputs a 0-5volt signal by doubling the range it sees from 0-5volts covering the boost pressure too. The stock 1 bar halves the pressure for the same 0-5 volts. When you use a 2 BAR its 2.5 volts for say 7psi from a s/c ot turbo, on a 1 BAR (Stock) a sub 5 volt signal is still under 0 manifold pressure and it will trigger the control unit.
N o it doesnt include a RPM swithc, I'm saying to obtain one and add it into the install. They are 75 bucks.
Keyying on will sweep the voltage range but it will not output the full 5 volts all the time the car is on and its the voltage that triggers meth.
Its on JB's car but few tuners share this type of info.
Last edited by SpinMonster; Sep 28, 2009 at 06:25 PM.
Thread Starter
Tech Contributor
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 12,094
Likes: 197
From: Colorado Springs, CO
St. Jude Donor '08-'09-'10-'11
I definitely see JB's point about Torco boosting the octane to provide help at in town rpms, when you just want a little extra throttle response and power w/o downshifting. So if you were to add an rpm switch, could it be set at 2000 rpm to avoid the start up issue (and low rpm cruise in 6th which tends to be high MAP) and still allow for use of meth at lower rpms at mid MAP?
Other kit manufacturers have done this type of install before and this is where my info comes from. Some locals that run nitrous systems with meth here on an otherwise N/A car are how I saw the triggering from a 1 BAR MAP.
Last edited by SpinMonster; Sep 28, 2009 at 06:30 PM.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 862
Likes: 0
From: Gaithersburg MD
1 BAR MAP output at Ignition On - Not running state
Keying on will sweep the voltage range but it will not output the full 5 volts all the time the car is on and its the voltage that triggers meth.
It this last part that I am not sure I understand. I think the voltage out of a 1 BAR (stock) MAP will represent 1 BAR or near the same as WOT (a little more really) when the vehicle is in the Ignition On / Not Running state.
I think that we are in agreement that during a ECM reflash (several minutes) the ignition is on and the engine is not running. In this state the standard Alky Injector Controller will command pump on. Hence, we the need for an external RPM switch.
Perhaps the new controller will monitor rpm and Ignition state via the UDBII?
So if we set customer service aside (which is usually not a good idea) should we not consider the A.I.S. controller. It has these extra sensors and control states built in.
We will see how the service side works as I have been waiting 2 working days now to get a response from the A.I.S. technical help web interface.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 862
Likes: 0
From: Gaithersburg MD
External IAT transfer curve
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Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,835
Likes: 5
From: Avon Park FLORIDA
St. Jude Donor '08-'09-'10
Time to Install!!!
Spin, well I've yet to install the Alky setup, If you have any tricks call me.
talk me thru it!!!
I will start the install in a couple of days, just finished the Zo6 fuel pump!!
It was a PITA!!!
BTW great write up!!!
I'm also going with the Wide BOOty, you should have warned me about putting down all that TQ
talk me thru it!!!
I will start the install in a couple of days, just finished the Zo6 fuel pump!!
It was a PITA!!!
BTW great write up!!!
I'm also going with the Wide BOOty, you should have warned me about putting down all that TQ
Thread Starter
Tech Contributor
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 12,094
Likes: 197
From: Colorado Springs, CO
St. Jude Donor '08-'09-'10-'11
Spin, well I've yet to install the Alky setup, If you have any tricks call me.
talk me thru it!!!
I will start the install in a couple of days, just finished the Zo6 fuel pump!!
It was a PITA!!!
BTW great write up!!!
I'm also going with the Wide BOOty, you should have warned me about putting down all that TQ
talk me thru it!!!
I will start the install in a couple of days, just finished the Zo6 fuel pump!!
It was a PITA!!!
BTW great write up!!!
I'm also going with the Wide BOOty, you should have warned me about putting down all that TQ
Thread Starter
Tech Contributor
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 12,094
Likes: 197
From: Colorado Springs, CO
St. Jude Donor '08-'09-'10-'11
Thread Starter
Tech Contributor
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 12,094
Likes: 197
From: Colorado Springs, CO
St. Jude Donor '08-'09-'10-'11
Some R&D updates
I went out a keyed on the corvette but didnt start it and read the MAP voltage; it was 1.75.
My car is a 2 BAR MAP so thats 1/2. Knowing there would be a nay sayer, I used the Hummer for the voltage reading and it was in fact 2x that valve since its a one bar MAP and got 3.7 of 5volts:
Next up was to take the hummer for a drive and see what situations caused a .79 MAP value that corresponds to the 3.7 volts and it was there in all situations in which the truck was under any real load. In other wrds it would be spraying long before WOT such as in mild roll-ins for passing on the hiway.
After brainstorming and then comming up blank my brother said to put in an interupt switch like the one you use for nitrous to lock out the power to the meth pump in a predetermined throttle setting such as 1/3 throttle and use a mild nozzle that would ramp up from .7 or 3.5 volts to full at 3.7 volts. It would require the thorttle to be set neat at least 1/3 throttle or 1/2 throttle for it to spray and this 1 dollar solution fixes the start-up issue where the MAP is keyyed without the engine running. The scans showed this to be a great way to do it and it saves the use of the rpm switch and its required tach signal tap whihc we all know is the next 100PM's I would get.
I went out a keyed on the corvette but didnt start it and read the MAP voltage; it was 1.75.
My car is a 2 BAR MAP so thats 1/2. Knowing there would be a nay sayer, I used the Hummer for the voltage reading and it was in fact 2x that valve since its a one bar MAP and got 3.7 of 5volts:
Next up was to take the hummer for a drive and see what situations caused a .79 MAP value that corresponds to the 3.7 volts and it was there in all situations in which the truck was under any real load. In other wrds it would be spraying long before WOT such as in mild roll-ins for passing on the hiway.
After brainstorming and then comming up blank my brother said to put in an interupt switch like the one you use for nitrous to lock out the power to the meth pump in a predetermined throttle setting such as 1/3 throttle and use a mild nozzle that would ramp up from .7 or 3.5 volts to full at 3.7 volts. It would require the thorttle to be set neat at least 1/3 throttle or 1/2 throttle for it to spray and this 1 dollar solution fixes the start-up issue where the MAP is keyyed without the engine running. The scans showed this to be a great way to do it and it saves the use of the rpm switch and its required tach signal tap whihc we all know is the next 100PM's I would get.
Last edited by SpinMonster; Sep 29, 2009 at 02:58 AM.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 862
Likes: 0
From: Gaithersburg MD
The bar in Denver
I was confused again until I remembered that Spin lives near Denver. So instead of reading about 1 bar in the ignition on engine off state as I expected living near sea level, Spin will see about .82 bar (5280' elevation).
So it makes some sense to measure .79 bar map at key on (ignition on engine off) if there was a low pressure area over Spins garage.
What I don't get is why the Hummer reads .79 bar at key on and the same when in the driving conditions mentioned. Seems like the map sensor voltage would go down from the key on state under all driving conditions including WOT.
So it makes some sense to measure .79 bar map at key on (ignition on engine off) if there was a low pressure area over Spins garage.
What I don't get is why the Hummer reads .79 bar at key on and the same when in the driving conditions mentioned. Seems like the map sensor voltage would go down from the key on state under all driving conditions including WOT.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,835
Likes: 5
From: Avon Park FLORIDA
St. Jude Donor '08-'09-'10
I was waiting for Phil here to post his own results for the build we did together....just a hint of the success so far: He has 575rwtq N/A with a small cam (for a 427). He is using a dry shot with my homemade controller along with meth injection on tractionmonster wheels and its an automatic to boot. A 9 second creation if there ever was one.
I have to apologize for taking so long on this project, I've had some setbacks and my time has been put to use somewhere else.I have not driven the Vette in 3-4 weeks!!
I will start with the Meth install Saturday!! I will use 100% Methanol Alchohol and no tuning to start, IAT's temps here are always above
100* in the Summer. I need to figure out where to put the Nozzle the rest is pretty straight forward, I will do some before and after scans and send them to Spin for his input.
Supporting Tuner
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 51,896
Likes: 39
From: ================== Houston, Texas www.englandgreen.com ================== Necessary Evil™ __________
CI 6-7-8-9-10 Veteran
St. Jude Donor '05-'06-'07-'08-'09-'10-'11-'12-'13-'14
Excellent write up Spin!! Very, very well done!
Burning Brakes
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 862
Likes: 0
From: Gaithersburg MD
A.I.S. controller and pump
I spend 30 minutes with the A.I.S. tech rep. A couple of interesting things about their system.
1. The controller no longer supports 2D mapping. It only can select either the internal pressure sensor or a single 0-5V analog voltage input.
2. The pressure sensor is a boost sensor and can not be set to trigger below 1 bar (really about 1 psi over atmosphere). Not confirmed, but I think it is a differential sensor so it compensates for barometric variances. So if you wanted to use it for NA applications then you would need to sense MAF voltage.
3. It has no capability of providing any type of lockout for NA applications
4. The pump is not a Sureflow pump is is a Aquatec pump
http://www.aquatec.com/
5. The controller is not designed for engine compartment mounting
1. The controller no longer supports 2D mapping. It only can select either the internal pressure sensor or a single 0-5V analog voltage input.
2. The pressure sensor is a boost sensor and can not be set to trigger below 1 bar (really about 1 psi over atmosphere). Not confirmed, but I think it is a differential sensor so it compensates for barometric variances. So if you wanted to use it for NA applications then you would need to sense MAF voltage.
3. It has no capability of providing any type of lockout for NA applications
4. The pump is not a Sureflow pump is is a Aquatec pump
http://www.aquatec.com/
5. The controller is not designed for engine compartment mounting
Burning Brakes
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 781
Likes: 82
From: MA
Spin you always come up with some new twist to boost the infernal (lol) combustion engine and it's efficiency. You and the other posters here really know your stuff, Kudos to all. 
BTW The Garage Majal awaits you and the Craigster.
BTW The Garage Majal awaits you and the Craigster.