C7 base machanical wish list
11-03-2011, 08:05 PM
#21
Le Mans Master
11-03-2011, 08:20 PM
#22
Le Mans Master
I think a smaller displacement V8 with a supercharger or turbo would be more efficient and more reliable than a larger displacement, highly tweaked normally aspirated V8 to get the target HP of 450-480 in the C7 engine.
Last edited by ZeeOSix; 11-03-2011 at 08:50 PM.
11-03-2011, 09:14 PM
#23
Burning Brakes
Nobody expects Porsche to ditch their flat six. It's their signature. Porsche will continue to praise its inherent advantages and mitigate its weaknesses and refine it until it's so far behind that the brand must reinvent itself.
There's talk that BMW will embrace a V6 in place of their signature inline six, and that has a lot of folks up in arms, rightfully so.
Harley-Davidson has its potato-potato V-twin. Ducati its 90-degree twin.
Ferraris have high-revving naturally-aspirated small V8s and raucous V12s. Should they abandon these for lower-revving high-pressure turbo V6s because they're more efficient?
Mustang could have an Ecoboost V6 by now. It could be argued that there's no technical need for the Coyote to exist -- refine that V6 technology with big boost right on up to 450hp and beyond. But it's telling that they don't. It's telling that Ford built a Coyote V8 with a five point oh litre displacement.
Corvette uses a pushrod V8. It is the brand's signature. GM will continue to improve on it as long as they can make a business case for it -- and people will continue to buy them. Corvette is not dead nor dying; let not the absurd amount of time spent arguing over the reason for low sales or the meaning of an offhand comment about pursuing younger buyers distract you from the fact that Corvette is a powerful brand with a strong legacy that, despite flaws and tarnish, commands respect across generations. The pushrod V8 isn't just a good idea that's far from the limits of its development, it's a performance icon.
DOHC? Don't need it. Higher RPM? Enemy of efficiency. Supercharger? Don't need it until you want to chase 600hp. Buyers who let the price of aftermarket horsepower dictate what cars they buy? An infinitesimal minority above $50K, and not just irrelevent but actually detrimental to Corvette's future.
Let the powertrain engineers say when an engine architecture is at the end of its development rope, and let the market say when it's no longer economically viable, and recognize that everyone else trying to call in the pushrod V8's marker is just wishing.
GM will continue to refine Corvette's pushrod V8, and every car fanatic on the planet, no matter their particular brand affinity, should be happy that they do so. Competition and variety are good; they make life interesting and lead to better things, even when we think we're all so smart and we've figured out the final best answer already.
Heritage matters. And not just to old people.
.Jinx
There's talk that BMW will embrace a V6 in place of their signature inline six, and that has a lot of folks up in arms, rightfully so.
Harley-Davidson has its potato-potato V-twin. Ducati its 90-degree twin.
Ferraris have high-revving naturally-aspirated small V8s and raucous V12s. Should they abandon these for lower-revving high-pressure turbo V6s because they're more efficient?
Mustang could have an Ecoboost V6 by now. It could be argued that there's no technical need for the Coyote to exist -- refine that V6 technology with big boost right on up to 450hp and beyond. But it's telling that they don't. It's telling that Ford built a Coyote V8 with a five point oh litre displacement.
Corvette uses a pushrod V8. It is the brand's signature. GM will continue to improve on it as long as they can make a business case for it -- and people will continue to buy them. Corvette is not dead nor dying; let not the absurd amount of time spent arguing over the reason for low sales or the meaning of an offhand comment about pursuing younger buyers distract you from the fact that Corvette is a powerful brand with a strong legacy that, despite flaws and tarnish, commands respect across generations. The pushrod V8 isn't just a good idea that's far from the limits of its development, it's a performance icon.
DOHC? Don't need it. Higher RPM? Enemy of efficiency. Supercharger? Don't need it until you want to chase 600hp. Buyers who let the price of aftermarket horsepower dictate what cars they buy? An infinitesimal minority above $50K, and not just irrelevent but actually detrimental to Corvette's future.
Let the powertrain engineers say when an engine architecture is at the end of its development rope, and let the market say when it's no longer economically viable, and recognize that everyone else trying to call in the pushrod V8's marker is just wishing.
GM will continue to refine Corvette's pushrod V8, and every car fanatic on the planet, no matter their particular brand affinity, should be happy that they do so. Competition and variety are good; they make life interesting and lead to better things, even when we think we're all so smart and we've figured out the final best answer already.
Heritage matters. And not just to old people.
.Jinx
11-04-2011, 12:41 AM
#24
Safety Car
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Nobody expects Porsche to ditch their flat six. It's their signature. Porsche will continue to praise its inherent advantages and mitigate its weaknesses and refine it until it's so far behind that the brand must reinvent itself.
There's talk that BMW will embrace a V6 in place of their signature inline six, and that has a lot of folks up in arms, rightfully so.
Harley-Davidson has its potato-potato V-twin. Ducati its 90-degree twin.
Ferraris have high-revving naturally-aspirated small V8s and raucous V12s. Should they abandon these for lower-revving high-pressure turbo V6s because they're more efficient?
Mustang could have an Ecoboost V6 by now. It could be argued that there's no technical need for the Coyote to exist -- refine that V6 technology with big boost right on up to 450hp and beyond. But it's telling that they don't. It's telling that Ford built a Coyote V8 with a five point oh litre displacement.
Corvette uses a pushrod V8. It is the brand's signature. GM will continue to improve on it as long as they can make a business case for it -- and people will continue to buy them. Corvette is not dead nor dying; let not the absurd amount of time spent arguing over the reason for low sales or the meaning of an offhand comment about pursuing younger buyers distract you from the fact that Corvette is a powerful brand with a strong legacy that, despite flaws and tarnish, commands respect across generations. The pushrod V8 isn't just a good idea that's far from the limits of its development, it's a performance icon.
DOHC? Don't need it. Higher RPM? Enemy of efficiency. Supercharger? Don't need it until you want to chase 600hp. Buyers who let the price of aftermarket horsepower dictate what cars they buy? An infinitesimal minority above $50K, and not just irrelevent but actually detrimental to Corvette's future.
Let the powertrain engineers say when an engine architecture is at the end of its development rope, and let the market say when it's no longer economically viable, and recognize that everyone else trying to call in the pushrod V8's marker is just wishing.
GM will continue to refine Corvette's pushrod V8, and every car fanatic on the planet, no matter their particular brand affinity, should be happy that they do so. Competition and variety are good; they make life interesting and lead to better things, even when we think we're all so smart and we've figured out the final best answer already.
Heritage matters. And not just to old people.
.Jinx
There's talk that BMW will embrace a V6 in place of their signature inline six, and that has a lot of folks up in arms, rightfully so.
Harley-Davidson has its potato-potato V-twin. Ducati its 90-degree twin.
Ferraris have high-revving naturally-aspirated small V8s and raucous V12s. Should they abandon these for lower-revving high-pressure turbo V6s because they're more efficient?
Mustang could have an Ecoboost V6 by now. It could be argued that there's no technical need for the Coyote to exist -- refine that V6 technology with big boost right on up to 450hp and beyond. But it's telling that they don't. It's telling that Ford built a Coyote V8 with a five point oh litre displacement.
Corvette uses a pushrod V8. It is the brand's signature. GM will continue to improve on it as long as they can make a business case for it -- and people will continue to buy them. Corvette is not dead nor dying; let not the absurd amount of time spent arguing over the reason for low sales or the meaning of an offhand comment about pursuing younger buyers distract you from the fact that Corvette is a powerful brand with a strong legacy that, despite flaws and tarnish, commands respect across generations. The pushrod V8 isn't just a good idea that's far from the limits of its development, it's a performance icon.
DOHC? Don't need it. Higher RPM? Enemy of efficiency. Supercharger? Don't need it until you want to chase 600hp. Buyers who let the price of aftermarket horsepower dictate what cars they buy? An infinitesimal minority above $50K, and not just irrelevent but actually detrimental to Corvette's future.
Let the powertrain engineers say when an engine architecture is at the end of its development rope, and let the market say when it's no longer economically viable, and recognize that everyone else trying to call in the pushrod V8's marker is just wishing.
GM will continue to refine Corvette's pushrod V8, and every car fanatic on the planet, no matter their particular brand affinity, should be happy that they do so. Competition and variety are good; they make life interesting and lead to better things, even when we think we're all so smart and we've figured out the final best answer already.
Heritage matters. And not just to old people.
.Jinx
Agreed, across the board. I'm 26, and while I respect high-output multicam engines like the Coyote and AMG 6.2 and Ferrari V8s (and would love to drive any of them if given the opportunity), I don't see them as superior to the LS based purely on their horsepower per liter or the number of camshafts they have. Having pushrods has not been a limiting factor for power production in the LS series, so why alter it? Also, pushrods tend to be pretty simple, efficient, and have compact dimensions due to components being self-contained. People ask for a small dohc V8 with FI producing 450-460hp; an LS3 with DI would be capable of reliably producing 500hp if GM was interested. I don't have any problem with multicam engines or turbo V6s or anything, I just don't see any reason to put any of it in the Corvette.
11-04-2011, 01:08 PM
#25
Drifting
Thread Starter
Lets not get stuck on heritage. Remember the straight 6 was in a vette. The Mustang had pushrod engines & the model was successful.
The retro Stang of today has made major strides and it's current market has not suffered.
I don't want a straight or V6 but I do like the ability to keep an engine in its sweet spot and that requires reliable RPM.
When you start to install big lift and fast ramp rate cams the springs in a pushrod engine suffer.
Most modded cars will not run there springs past 40,000 miles, a DOHC engine has less issue with this requirement.
My list should be obtainable for the money noted.
Lots of good points, some Humor, it's all good
The retro Stang of today has made major strides and it's current market has not suffered.
I don't want a straight or V6 but I do like the ability to keep an engine in its sweet spot and that requires reliable RPM.
When you start to install big lift and fast ramp rate cams the springs in a pushrod engine suffer.
Most modded cars will not run there springs past 40,000 miles, a DOHC engine has less issue with this requirement.
My list should be obtainable for the money noted.
Lots of good points, some Humor, it's all good
11-04-2011, 01:41 PM
#26
Racer
Nobody expects Porsche to ditch their flat six. It's their signature. Porsche will continue to praise its inherent advantages and mitigate its weaknesses and refine it until it's so far behind that the brand must reinvent itself.
There's talk that BMW will embrace a V6 in place of their signature inline six, and that has a lot of folks up in arms, rightfully so.
Harley-Davidson has its potato-potato V-twin. Ducati its 90-degree twin.
Ferraris have high-revving naturally-aspirated small V8s and raucous V12s. Should they abandon these for lower-revving high-pressure turbo V6s because they're more efficient?
Mustang could have an Ecoboost V6 by now. It could be argued that there's no technical need for the Coyote to exist -- refine that V6 technology with big boost right on up to 450hp and beyond. But it's telling that they don't. It's telling that Ford built a Coyote V8 with a five point oh litre displacement.
Corvette uses a pushrod V8. It is the brand's signature. GM will continue to improve on it as long as they can make a business case for it -- and people will continue to buy them. Corvette is not dead nor dying; let not the absurd amount of time spent arguing over the reason for low sales or the meaning of an offhand comment about pursuing younger buyers distract you from the fact that Corvette is a powerful brand with a strong legacy that, despite flaws and tarnish, commands respect across generations. The pushrod V8 isn't just a good idea that's far from the limits of its development, it's a performance icon.
DOHC? Don't need it. Higher RPM? Enemy of efficiency. Supercharger? Don't need it until you want to chase 600hp. Buyers who let the price of aftermarket horsepower dictate what cars they buy? An infinitesimal minority above $50K, and not just irrelevent but actually detrimental to Corvette's future.
Let the powertrain engineers say when an engine architecture is at the end of its development rope, and let the market say when it's no longer economically viable, and recognize that everyone else trying to call in the pushrod V8's marker is just wishing.
GM will continue to refine Corvette's pushrod V8, and every car fanatic on the planet, no matter their particular brand affinity, should be happy that they do so. Competition and variety are good; they make life interesting and lead to better things, even when we think we're all so smart and we've figured out the final best answer already.
Heritage matters. And not just to old people.
.Jinx
There's talk that BMW will embrace a V6 in place of their signature inline six, and that has a lot of folks up in arms, rightfully so.
Harley-Davidson has its potato-potato V-twin. Ducati its 90-degree twin.
Ferraris have high-revving naturally-aspirated small V8s and raucous V12s. Should they abandon these for lower-revving high-pressure turbo V6s because they're more efficient?
Mustang could have an Ecoboost V6 by now. It could be argued that there's no technical need for the Coyote to exist -- refine that V6 technology with big boost right on up to 450hp and beyond. But it's telling that they don't. It's telling that Ford built a Coyote V8 with a five point oh litre displacement.
Corvette uses a pushrod V8. It is the brand's signature. GM will continue to improve on it as long as they can make a business case for it -- and people will continue to buy them. Corvette is not dead nor dying; let not the absurd amount of time spent arguing over the reason for low sales or the meaning of an offhand comment about pursuing younger buyers distract you from the fact that Corvette is a powerful brand with a strong legacy that, despite flaws and tarnish, commands respect across generations. The pushrod V8 isn't just a good idea that's far from the limits of its development, it's a performance icon.
DOHC? Don't need it. Higher RPM? Enemy of efficiency. Supercharger? Don't need it until you want to chase 600hp. Buyers who let the price of aftermarket horsepower dictate what cars they buy? An infinitesimal minority above $50K, and not just irrelevent but actually detrimental to Corvette's future.
Let the powertrain engineers say when an engine architecture is at the end of its development rope, and let the market say when it's no longer economically viable, and recognize that everyone else trying to call in the pushrod V8's marker is just wishing.
GM will continue to refine Corvette's pushrod V8, and every car fanatic on the planet, no matter their particular brand affinity, should be happy that they do so. Competition and variety are good; they make life interesting and lead to better things, even when we think we're all so smart and we've figured out the final best answer already.
Heritage matters. And not just to old people.
.Jinx
There's nothing noble about retaining your heritage if you can't sell the car to the people who should be buying it.
I believe Corvette should be moving to a new platform with a new power train architecture more in line with market expectations. Doing this will not betray the heritage. It will preserve it. It will also improve all round performance.
Change when it is not required is bad.
Not changing when change is needed is worse.
JMO. Time will tell who's right.
11-04-2011, 02:07 PM
#27
Instructor
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Why did Pontiac go under?
I look at the many G6s on road, I see how great the G8 GT and especially GXP are, and tho it was discontinued back in 06' who can really scoff at the outstanding performance of the GTO?
Just scary to think that a brand as big as Pontiac can go under, no wonder car companies are doing anything to sell the product.
I look at the many G6s on road, I see how great the G8 GT and especially GXP are, and tho it was discontinued back in 06' who can really scoff at the outstanding performance of the GTO?
Just scary to think that a brand as big as Pontiac can go under, no wonder car companies are doing anything to sell the product.
11-04-2011, 02:47 PM
#28
Drifting
Thread Starter
I think GM had to make cuts. The company was financially done.
Since Buick was the Asian favorite Pontiac had to go.
I agree the GTO, G8 were good.
Keep in mind if the cars do not sell enough volume they will go.
Ex. Camaro, Firebird
If the Vette does not keep up it will fade.
Since Buick was the Asian favorite Pontiac had to go.
I agree the GTO, G8 were good.
Keep in mind if the cars do not sell enough volume they will go.
Ex. Camaro, Firebird
If the Vette does not keep up it will fade.
let us hope that day never comes
11-04-2011, 04:25 PM
#30
Le Mans Master
11-04-2011, 06:26 PM
#31
Instructor
There aren't millions of them. Only around 100,000 have been sold since inception and they are not that common. As for blaming poor sales on the car itself, what else is there to blame poor sales of a car on?
Of course, the economy has hurt everyone but Corvette sales are suffering more than most.
Maybe the best approach on the engine issue is to keep the old engine alongside a new model sporting a new engine. That would satisfy the old guard at the same time as bringing in new customers. Very expensive approach but it is a possibility.
Of course, the economy has hurt everyone but Corvette sales are suffering more than most.
Maybe the best approach on the engine issue is to keep the old engine alongside a new model sporting a new engine. That would satisfy the old guard at the same time as bringing in new customers. Very expensive approach but it is a possibility.
You asked "As for blaming poor sales on the car itself, what else is there to blame poor sales of a car on?"
I literally just answered that question in the post that YOU quoted.
I'm not saying there is anything wrong with the C6 or its body-style (hell, I really want a Z06 to join my CTS-V in the garage) but to people who see these Vettes a lot (down south, in California, etc.) they don't have any interest in buying one because its "old hat" so to speak.
The same reason people don't by iPhone 1s anymore, they are a perfectly good product, but something new has come out and garnered all the consumer's interest.
I for one fall into the category of really wanting C6 Z06 for about 4 years now, but since I already had my toy (2004 CTS-V, highly modded) I couldn't afford another fun car (although I could afford one now). But since I have waited this long, now I feel like I can wait a couple more years and see what the C7s have to offer before making my decision.
That is a lost sale basically for a current Vette, but it is no fault of GM or the C6 Corvette itself. Anybody who knows anything about Vettes knows that a 2012 Z06 with Z07 package and new seats/steering wheel is by far the best iteration of any Vette under $100K ever, but people don't care because they can't see past the reviled interior and (in their opinion) dated exterior.
11-04-2011, 09:50 PM
#33
Le Mans Master
11-04-2011, 11:40 PM
#34
Burning Brakes
The 77 Bandit Trans Am was probably the biggest success for GM in the 70's. Not to mention the '69 Trans Am.
The '87 5.7 IROC Z Camaro was another.
The Corvette may have a longer history, but I doubt there is any CHEVY fan who would deny the Camaro as iconic.
11-05-2011, 03:03 AM
#35
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Totally unrelated, but in today's search for an alternative to the Corvette I stumbled upon some used Camaros.
I always considered the car an overpriced, Corvette wannabe but once i realized how affordable they are, and see the things people are doing to add to their performance (Corvette-esque upgrades) I have a new respect for the new Camaro. I mean, the fact that you can get a 2SS/RS only 2 years old with reasonable mods for the price of a decent 05-06 Vette.... pretty awesome.
Its quite clear to me that if I dont always have a Corvette (which im 99% i will) a Camaro would make a nice alternative.
I always considered the car an overpriced, Corvette wannabe but once i realized how affordable they are, and see the things people are doing to add to their performance (Corvette-esque upgrades) I have a new respect for the new Camaro. I mean, the fact that you can get a 2SS/RS only 2 years old with reasonable mods for the price of a decent 05-06 Vette.... pretty awesome.
Its quite clear to me that if I dont always have a Corvette (which im 99% i will) a Camaro would make a nice alternative.
11-05-2011, 08:26 AM
#36
Racer
Yeah, when I said millions, it was a figure of speech to prove my point, I did not mean it literally...Moving on...
You asked "As for blaming poor sales on the car itself, what else is there to blame poor sales of a car on?"
I literally just answered that question in the post that YOU quoted.
I'm not saying there is anything wrong with the C6 or its body-style (hell, I really want a Z06 to join my CTS-V in the garage) but to people who see these Vettes a lot (down south, in California, etc.) they don't have any interest in buying one because its "old hat" so to speak.
The same reason people don't by iPhone 1s anymore, they are a perfectly good product, but something new has come out and garnered all the consumer's interest.
I for one fall into the category of really wanting C6 Z06 for about 4 years now, but since I already had my toy (2004 CTS-V, highly modded) I couldn't afford another fun car (although I could afford one now). But since I have waited this long, now I feel like I can wait a couple more years and see what the C7s have to offer before making my decision.
That is a lost sale basically for a current Vette, but it is no fault of GM or the C6 Corvette itself. Anybody who knows anything about Vettes knows that a 2012 Z06 with Z07 package and new seats/steering wheel is by far the best iteration of any Vette under $100K ever, but people don't care because they can't see past the reviled interior and (in their opinion) dated exterior.
You asked "As for blaming poor sales on the car itself, what else is there to blame poor sales of a car on?"
I literally just answered that question in the post that YOU quoted.
I'm not saying there is anything wrong with the C6 or its body-style (hell, I really want a Z06 to join my CTS-V in the garage) but to people who see these Vettes a lot (down south, in California, etc.) they don't have any interest in buying one because its "old hat" so to speak.
The same reason people don't by iPhone 1s anymore, they are a perfectly good product, but something new has come out and garnered all the consumer's interest.
I for one fall into the category of really wanting C6 Z06 for about 4 years now, but since I already had my toy (2004 CTS-V, highly modded) I couldn't afford another fun car (although I could afford one now). But since I have waited this long, now I feel like I can wait a couple more years and see what the C7s have to offer before making my decision.
That is a lost sale basically for a current Vette, but it is no fault of GM or the C6 Corvette itself. Anybody who knows anything about Vettes knows that a 2012 Z06 with Z07 package and new seats/steering wheel is by far the best iteration of any Vette under $100K ever, but people don't care because they can't see past the reviled interior and (in their opinion) dated exterior.
You did answer the question about why sales are declining but I don't agree with your answer. The slow economy explains the overall slump in sports car sales but it doesn't explain why the Corvette is losing market share. That is happening because the car is less desirable than the competition to many people. Then, in the rest of your post you actually give several reasons why that is. It's "old hat". The Z07 is still the best car but people don't buy it because of the interior and the dated exterior. Even you aren't buying a C6 yet you place no blame for that on the car itself. Well, what else should get the blame? Can't be the economy as you said you could afford one.
The car is the problem and C7 can't come too soon.
11-05-2011, 08:36 AM
#37
Racer
Why did Pontiac go under?
I look at the many G6s on road, I see how great the G8 GT and especially GXP are, and tho it was discontinued back in 06' who can really scoff at the outstanding performance of the GTO?
Just scary to think that a brand as big as Pontiac can go under, no wonder car companies are doing anything to sell the product.
I look at the many G6s on road, I see how great the G8 GT and especially GXP are, and tho it was discontinued back in 06' who can really scoff at the outstanding performance of the GTO?
Just scary to think that a brand as big as Pontiac can go under, no wonder car companies are doing anything to sell the product.
Pontiac sales were strong to the end but I assume it was not a profitable line. No point in making a car that can't be sold at a profit.
As for iconic, both Pontiac and Oldsmobile were part of American popular culture pre-dating the Corvette by decades. My first car was an Oldsmobile and I cherish the memory.
Heritage and tradition are valuable when they contribute to the business but go overboard in a hurry when sales and profits suffer.
No car is immune from this reality.
11-05-2011, 01:35 PM
#38
Burning Brakes
Pontiac and OLDS killed themselves at the corporate level. Front drive crap with names like Grand Prix, 442 etc. were bastardized onto totally non performance cars.
Pontiac was not profitable because the only performance in the division, noted for performance, was imported in from AUSTRALIA. Not exactly a cheap shipping task or conversion rate.
The new GTO would have been fine had it not been called a GTO. Bad idea with the wrong look. The G8 cost too much and came in when gas hit $4, plus a RWD car in the north is always a tough sell to all but hardcore enthusiasts.
The demographic left for sure. As soon as the cars no longer had anything to do with performance, you may as well buy the cheaper Chevy version, or more luxury based Buick version. Regardless they were all junk in the end. Cheap plastic, cheap plastic body cladding etc. I predicted the end to OLDS in 1988.
I thought Pontiac would be fine with FIREBIRD but the giant wedge cluster design of the late nineties made certain of its demise also.
Pontiac was not profitable because the only performance in the division, noted for performance, was imported in from AUSTRALIA. Not exactly a cheap shipping task or conversion rate.
The new GTO would have been fine had it not been called a GTO. Bad idea with the wrong look. The G8 cost too much and came in when gas hit $4, plus a RWD car in the north is always a tough sell to all but hardcore enthusiasts.
The demographic left for sure. As soon as the cars no longer had anything to do with performance, you may as well buy the cheaper Chevy version, or more luxury based Buick version. Regardless they were all junk in the end. Cheap plastic, cheap plastic body cladding etc. I predicted the end to OLDS in 1988.
I thought Pontiac would be fine with FIREBIRD but the giant wedge cluster design of the late nineties made certain of its demise also.
11-05-2011, 02:17 PM
#39
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Oldsmobile was killed off due to having essential tally no sales. The last Olds to roll off the assembly line was a freaking Sleep; what a joke. However, Pontiac was still in good shape at its demise and GM fully intended to drop the mainstream models and position the automaker as their niche aggressive manufacturer, maintaining only the Solstice and the G8 and continuing the trend with only fun-to-drive cars in their lineup. However, when the government bailed out GM the Obama administration deemed this strategy to be "unclear" and told GM to find another solution. Since the only Pontiac with a following were those models and the mainstream models didn't sell well enough to make a business case for themselves, GM had to kill it off, since the president wouldn't allow Pontiac to become a niche automaker. It still bothers me; GM dropped two of their most entertaining platforms from production with that deal: the Solstice/Sky's Kappa and the G8's Zeta, which were both extremely capable and designed to be very competitive (performance) within their segments.
11-05-2011, 06:21 PM
#40
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I like the way you think.