Why are you fixated on C4s? What's that all about?

 

All that started with all the drivel about the car weighing close to 3000 and being the lightest vette ever. I pointed out that all the old cast iron and glass sleds were that light and that gm should be embarrassed that the c6 and c7 were so heavy. Lots of uneducated discussion which is now even funnier since it appears the c7 isnt even near 3000. Gm forgot it already has a cadillac division.

 

Hard to argue with you -- but also hard to argue with the guys who have posted the published curb weights of the C4's C5's and C6's. No reason at all for GM not to have accurately reported those. Can you post slips from the scales to support your observations? And, can you list specifically what was removed (spare, jack, other unnecessary "stuff") before the weigh-ins? Also, like sometimes happens with dynos, is there any chance the scales were off? (not being a wiseguy, just asking an obvious question).

I hate arguments where both parties are probably correct but operating under different assumptions.

Also, I agree about disappointment on weight -- if over 3100 lbs. Seems "marketing" (to whom?) and regs require a lot of "stuff" to offset the 150 lbs they cut out (at pretty high cost). Too bad if indeed true....

 

i'm happy to email pics of my car on the scales, but i dont host any upload sites from which to post. scales are all a bit different buy mine are calibrated. and the results are from experience with SCCA's scales at nationals over a number of cars and year models, so i am sure of them.

but it really is moot now, not only did i find that the vettespecs book shows 3152 curb weight for an automatic c4 (all fluids, ready to drive, with 20 (!) gallons of gas), that means a manual car with 16 gallons equivalent to a modern vette, and without the jack and spare, which the new cars don't have would have a 3052 curb weight, which is pretty close (within 35 lbs) to what mine shows on the scales.

also, the new info seems to indicate that the c7 is heavier than a c6 anyways, rendering the whole discussion moot except the main point, that the c6 is more of a jag or CTSV coupe competitor and not really a sports car.

 

You're the one with the comprehension problem.

You keep banging the same stupid drum, labeling everything that's not in a C4 as crap, when numerous people have pointed out all of the functional advantages and legal requirements that actually weigh stuff.

You are a one-note troll, and now you are ignored.

.Jinx

 

Ummmmm......This Video has the weight listed as 3350? Go to 1:12. Don't shoot the messenger. I'm as confused as anyone.

 

Best I can recall, the factory assembly instruction manual for a stock 68 Corvette Convertible lists it's weight as 3050 lbs for a SB. I toted up all the weight improvements for my 68,...aluminum replacements...and I think the weight is now about 2800 lbs. That's with a 395 hp ZZ4 hot cam engine. Aluminum cylinder heads, aluminum intake manifold, aluminum water pump, mini-starter, aluminum radiator, aluminum brakes, composite rear spring, aluminum wheels, headers to replace the cast iron manifolds, factory sidepipes to replace the heavy rear mufflers, spare tire and spare tire container delete. Maybe up 10 pounds or so to replace the Muncie with a Tremac TKO600 5 speed.

The supercharger put about 60-70 pounds on my C6 08 coupe.

 

As to point 1, I had a '93 and did a Pocono HPDE once for fun (whole other story) and that was a pretty heavy car compared to the earlier C4's. But, MUCH easier to live with the other 364 days of the year vs. the earlier C4's. So, the modest weight penalty in that case was a good trade-off given the engineering and manufacturing capabilities of the time.

As to point 2, my C5Z, and C6's I have driven, are plenty civilized enough for daily use. So, you cut out 150 lbs, and then add 250 pounds (estimated) more "stuff"?? I mean, tires aren't fatter, brakes are marginally bigger, safety regs barely changed (I think), interior niceties (after allowing for magnesium seat frames) cannot be THAT heavy, additional sound-deadeners should not be too heavy AND are unnecessary anyway, digital stuff should add the weight of a laptop max, etc, etc. Heck, a Boss 302 weighs ~3,600 lbs -- just seems like a trim 2-seater should be more than 300 lbs lighter, especially with an OHV engine, aluminum frame, CF hood and Targa panel, etc.

Man do I hope we are somehow misinterpreting or Juechter was misquoted and has decided not to respond...

My thirteen year old, $16K (used) Z, @ >200 lbs. lighter and nearly 400 HP, sure seems like the performance bargain of the century at this point!!!!!

 

you can't educate a potato, because though it lives, it is too stupid to read and comprehend. the jinx potato misses my only point, which was that many early corvettes, including c4's, for all their faults and cast iron parts, are significantly lighter than it appears the c7 is, despite the fact that all of said 'functional advantages' and even most of the 'legal requirements' underlying the C7 are LIGHTER than the equivalent parts on the older cars.


examples: c7 engine - probably 110 pounds lighter (ls3 is 125 lbs)
c7 v. c4 c7 emissions system - at LEAST 10 pounds lighter
c7 frame - at least 150 pounds lighter
c7 body - probably significantly lighter despite size
c7 headlights - at least 20 pounds lighter
c7 magnesium seats - almost certainly lighter
c7 wheels - probably lighter, those old 16's are over 26lbs
c7 drivetrain - maybe 20-50 lbs heavier, 4+3 is no feather
c7 brakes - probably 20 pounds heavier, not more than 30
c7 suspension - that's a wash, within 10 pounds
c7 air conditioning - at least 10 pounds lighter
c7 stereo - willing to bet its lighter

so from a 3030 pound c4 as an example, every component that a car person cares about in the c7, from suspension, tires and wheels, engine to differential, seats, air conditioning, frame and body, combined weighs somewhere between 190 and 300 pounds LESS. So why is the c7 looking like 300 pounds MORE car? it is apparently all sound deadening, wiring, and modules, and just sheer size (4" wider, 2" longer, taller). the airbags combined on a c6 don't weigh 25 pounds, I'm sure the c7 is the same.


the c7 is heavy because they keep making the cars larger, which i disagree with, and because it carries over 900 pounds of purely comfort weight, which I view as excessive for a sports car.

 

I dont get it
C7 is aprox the same size as C6
Frame is 95 pounds lighter
Tire/wheel is smaller/lighter
Seats has magnesium frame vs steel, should be lighter (C6 is heavy)
CF hood = lighter
CF roof = lighter
smaller rear hatch window, alot lighter
A-arm are hollow and lighter
Cradles are hollow and lighter/stronger

So, it adds up to at least 150 pounds LESS than the C6

Why on earth is it 150 heavier, something does not add up here

There is no way you can add insulation and wiring/computers worth 300 pounds

well we found out soon enough

Rune

 

We aren't truthfully going to know anything about the car until it actually comes out, about it's TRUE weight, TRUE power, MPG and handling are going to be until magazine tests are done testing it Imho. Until then everything is just speculation and estimates.

 

It's exactly as YOU said in a post before, blame gov safety & environmental regs. Plus the luxury demands of modern buyers for the added weight.

Auto companies keep on inventing lighter materials, but then Big Gov cancels their savings out with higher mpg standards & tougher safety tests.

By the way, can you imagine what a 1958 Vette would weigh now - if it had been built with an aluminum engine, aluminum frame, plus the countless other lighter parts from today? Probably around 2500lbs.

 

Jinx,

You just don't get it. The 1984 Corvette was the best engineered Vette ever and they have been going downhill ever since then. In fact, the C6 ZR1 takes over an hour to get around the Ring whereas Ramey can do it in under a minute(and that includes stopping for a potty break) in his 87. The only reason Ramey is driving a bloated 87 is that 84's are drawing over a hundred grand at Barrett-Jackson. That's the reason I'm driving a horrible handling C6 Z06..I can't afford a C4.

 

All other high-performance cars today are lighter than they were in 1984...

 

Interesting analysis. Why 2 guys keep insulting and misunderstanding you is beyond understanding. I think the problem is, you are being interpreted as saying the C4 is BETTER than the C7 (which in no way will it be) while you are in fact, to anyone with better than 1st grade reading comprehension skills, lamenting that for all the obviously much lighter components, the C7 is still as heavy or heavier. I share your lament even if the reasons were hard for GM to overcome.

I cannot accept being happy about all the extra weight on other "stuff", even if some of it really does add to the driving/ownership experience. What would be informative would be for the GM engineers or the automotive press to actually break all this out for us -- what's down (which we got in great detail) and what's up (which is conspicuous by its absense in the intro). Then this thread would sound more like a valid debate and less like a schooyard argument.

 

Now Torch Z is infected with selective vision. It's disingenuous to pretend to be naive and label every pound added since C4 as junk / fat / filler / luxury. Anyone who truly believes it's all junk / fat / filler / luxury is stunningly ignorant.

Rocket science this isn't. One more time: performance improvement, which is desirable, plus safety improvement, which is federally mandated so whether you think it's desirable is moot. Size is part of those performance and safety improvements. That's where the mass is. C4 could not legally be sold today. Stop using C4 as a baseline and only subtracting weight for aluminum engine block & lighter starter etc and acting like that's a realistic expectation for C7. It's not and either you damn well know it or you're clueless. You don't like how fat sports cars have gotten? Write your Congressman and tell them to rein in NHTSA. Ask them to slap the EPA around while you're at it.

.Jinx

 

i will go in one more time with this: air bags have never been more than 25 lbs total on any other car i have taken them out of. usually under 16. the frame and body, which contain almost ALL OTHER crashworthiness standards and protections, are LIGHTER on the new car than the old. there are some interior requirements for dash protection, which have never in any other car been more than 20 pounds. the emissions systems in a new car are LIGHTER. no egr. no air pump. no triple cats. no extra injector. etc. etc. etc.

modern 5 mph bumpers are LIGHTER than the chrome ones on the c1-3, and probably the same as the c4 (i don't even think that standard has changed).

there appears to be very little required or functional weight in the bs you are talking about.

the simple reality appears to be that an early car has less than 400 pound of wiring and comfort weight, while the c7 appears to have more than 900.

the question of most people around here is, why is that appropriate for a sports car? that is why there are at least 5 threads with people bitching about the weight.

hell, even the wiring is a questionmark. the c6 started to have mutliple circuits using the same wires! this is absolutely godawful for a long term reliable, modifiable, or repairable car, but is supposed to save weight.... i assume the c7 is even worse than the c6 in this regard.

this car should not weigh 3000, much less 3300.

 

And the main safety item, THE FRAME, is lighter. So I would like to know where all the rest is coming from.

 

100% right on. C7 was designed by the government. EPA and the NHTSA regs dictated that the engine be designed with DI and AFM, resulting in a heavier engine and torque tube. The 7th gear added to the transmission was because of the EPA, and also added additional weight.

 

DI can't be more than 10 pounds... i think i even saw a quote on that, and that number is baked into my example before. AFM is software, as i understand it. variable cam timing is less than 5. if the torque tube is now steel and was not before, that could be as much as 15 or 20.

we are looking for the other 865 lbs.