Legit question
Thread Starter
Safety Car
Joined: Aug 2012
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From: Danbury CT
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2009
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From: My interests are mobile
The way I view it is that the C6 Z51 had 285 Supercars tires(better grip than the 285 GS-2 tires on the base coupe) but the Z06 had to go with 325 Supercar tires to give the 505 HP half a chance to get the power to the pavement.
If the new Michelin compound and tread design(used on the Z51, but not the same as used on the base C7) and is supposed to better the old 285 Supercar tire's grip(maybe equal the 325 Supercar's grip), then the 575HP(????) C7 Z06 will still need a wider tire to get that additional 120 HP to the pavement. The C6 Z51 was good for 1.0g skidpad
and that's the number that's been thrown around for the C7 Z51. The 325 Supercar's are good for around 1.05g on the GS and the Michelins used on the Z06/Z07 are good for around 1.13g. I seriously doubt that the Michelin 285's will allow the C7 Z51 to do a 1.13g skidpad.
If the new Michelin compound and tread design(used on the Z51, but not the same as used on the base C7) and is supposed to better the old 285 Supercar tire's grip(maybe equal the 325 Supercar's grip), then the 575HP(????) C7 Z06 will still need a wider tire to get that additional 120 HP to the pavement. The C6 Z51 was good for 1.0g skidpad
and that's the number that's been thrown around for the C7 Z51. The 325 Supercar's are good for around 1.05g on the GS and the Michelins used on the Z06/Z07 are good for around 1.13g. I seriously doubt that the Michelin 285's will allow the C7 Z51 to do a 1.13g skidpad.
The Michelin won....the end. What else is there to say?
Race Director
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 10,355
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Very serious looking machine there that does, in fact, sit higher in the rear than I would have expected. What is the top speed you routinely hit on the track(s) you primarily run it on?
Melting Slicks
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,244
Likes: 2,175
From: Cary NC
Bigger brakes, as well as styling trends, are driving wheel diameter up, which drives up rotating weight and inertia. On the plus side, larger wheel/tire diameters also result in a larger contact patch, since the tire radius is longer, leading to a flatter circumference.
It wouldn't surprise me if they're narrowing the tire to bring the contact patch down to "what's needed" with the larger diameter, instead of "overkill", while getting the benefit of reduced weight and reduced polar moment of inertia of the tire. The tire adds a significant amount to both, when considering the tire/wheel as a whole.
Given that, I'd rather make a small tradeoff and put a little wider tire on the back of the C7 - at least a 305. It just looks 100% better IMO.
.
It wouldn't surprise me if they're narrowing the tire to bring the contact patch down to "what's needed" with the larger diameter, instead of "overkill", while getting the benefit of reduced weight and reduced polar moment of inertia of the tire. The tire adds a significant amount to both, when considering the tire/wheel as a whole.
Given that, I'd rather make a small tradeoff and put a little wider tire on the back of the C7 - at least a 305. It just looks 100% better IMO.
.
Last edited by RedLS6; May 22, 2013 at 10:08 PM.
Thread Starter
Safety Car
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 4,377
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From: Danbury CT
Well I guess my response would be have they been wrong for all these years then? Who has the fastest times ever at LS? And those two American behemoths weren't wearing 285's or even 305's. More simply put do you think the SRT or ZR1 would run 1:33's on 285's and if they could well then why aren't they wearing them? This is the basis of my thread, not to conflict about it but to try and figure what is better.
It's really quite amazing how you twist things into a totally skewed perspective.
The C7 Z51 isn't targeting a Viper.
Engineering is building to suit a specific requirement based upon your goals, needs, costs, etc. Would the C7 Z51 have MORE GRIP on a compound it's tire will use, but at 305mm...SURE...is it necessary to achieve the goal set forth for the car....NO.
You can put the big wide tire on there...then you face the cost of the tire, the cost of the wider rim, the all weather performance factor, road noise, etc.
For market the C7 lives in, the 285 is adequate and provides better fuel efficiency and better aero characteristics. It's the best tire for the prescribed job.
SRT's Viper is what I call a "stupid simple" car. The Corvette has always been more advanced and more refined than the Viper, and always will be unless they start selling more cars. The Viper takes the bigger is better approach, and for guys like you...that floats your boat. I have 345's on my C5Z...sure, I like a big *** tire...but the facts are the facts....they cost more to employ, they are less fuel/aerodynamically efficient, and the car already exceeds 95% of typical owners driving capabilities...including yours.
Your little LS record statement...that comparison doesn't even make sense. The original test had the ZR1 beating the Viper with a smaller tire. Viper took the stupid simple approach and somehow came out with a new model in a week and slapped some aero parts on and ta da....now they win.
Corvette can do it better than SRT...on less motor, on less tire, for less money....just look at ALMS for God's sake. We run a 5.5 liter, they run an 8.0 liter...and they have a BIGGER diameter air intake restrictor just to be competitive...lol. The fact they have 8.0 liters versus our 5.5 isn't enough for them to make the same performance. Corvette has a FAR more developed car, FAR bigger budget to develop the car and MUCH more racing success than Viper/SRT. The end...
The C7 Z51 isn't targeting a Viper.
Engineering is building to suit a specific requirement based upon your goals, needs, costs, etc. Would the C7 Z51 have MORE GRIP on a compound it's tire will use, but at 305mm...SURE...is it necessary to achieve the goal set forth for the car....NO.
You can put the big wide tire on there...then you face the cost of the tire, the cost of the wider rim, the all weather performance factor, road noise, etc.
For market the C7 lives in, the 285 is adequate and provides better fuel efficiency and better aero characteristics. It's the best tire for the prescribed job.
SRT's Viper is what I call a "stupid simple" car. The Corvette has always been more advanced and more refined than the Viper, and always will be unless they start selling more cars. The Viper takes the bigger is better approach, and for guys like you...that floats your boat. I have 345's on my C5Z...sure, I like a big *** tire...but the facts are the facts....they cost more to employ, they are less fuel/aerodynamically efficient, and the car already exceeds 95% of typical owners driving capabilities...including yours.
Your little LS record statement...that comparison doesn't even make sense. The original test had the ZR1 beating the Viper with a smaller tire. Viper took the stupid simple approach and somehow came out with a new model in a week and slapped some aero parts on and ta da....now they win.
Corvette can do it better than SRT...on less motor, on less tire, for less money....just look at ALMS for God's sake. We run a 5.5 liter, they run an 8.0 liter...and they have a BIGGER diameter air intake restrictor just to be competitive...lol. The fact they have 8.0 liters versus our 5.5 isn't enough for them to make the same performance. Corvette has a FAR more developed car, FAR bigger budget to develop the car and MUCH more racing success than Viper/SRT. The end...
Thread Starter
Safety Car
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 4,377
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From: Danbury CT
I've had it to low 160's on the 8/10th back stretch at MMC, a better driver can probably get low 170's with better entry and deeper braking. I sold the car last year but would like to own another some day. thanks...
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 6,937
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From: My interests are mobile
Dude how to you construe this into a Viper thing? You seem to have turned a compliment towards the Viper and ZR1 into a Viper vs. Z51 thing. Read the above paragraph again and stop playing video games! It simply say that IMO neither car would run 1:33's with 285's, pretty simple huh!
You are a delusional person, how do you bring ALMS and SRT vs. Corvette into a conversation about tire size! And "guys like me" don't appreciate your condescending approach!
You are a delusional person, how do you bring ALMS and SRT vs. Corvette into a conversation about tire size! And "guys like me" don't appreciate your condescending approach!
You're talking about steam rollers on a Viper and then bitching about a C7 Z51 tire size. Take your head out of the clouds dude. Go chill at the Viper forums already.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 6,937
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From: My interests are mobile
What time you run at MMC there pal? I drove a ZR1 there (among other things)...I'm curious.
Are you a member? I know many people there, am a personal friend of Ari and was going to supply a track day car to them for lease. We've done many dealings....you know...in between my video game playing and all.
Are you a member? I know many people there, am a personal friend of Ari and was going to supply a track day car to them for lease. We've done many dealings....you know...in between my video game playing and all.
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Thread Starter
Safety Car
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 4,377
Likes: 1
From: Danbury CT
How do I construe this to a Viper thing!? Who brought up Vipers, LS and starting posting pics of them...me or you!?
You're talking about steam rollers on a Viper and then bitching about a C7 Z51 tire size. Take your head out of the clouds dude. Go chill at the Viper forums already.
You're talking about steam rollers on a Viper and then bitching about a C7 Z51 tire size. Take your head out of the clouds dude. Go chill at the Viper forums already.
Thread Starter
Safety Car
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 4,377
Likes: 1
From: Danbury CT
What time you run at MMC there pal? I drove a ZR1 there (among other things)...I'm curious.
Are you a member? I know many people there, am a personal friend of Ari and was going to supply a track day car to them for lease. We've done many dealings....you know...in between my video game playing and all.
Are you a member? I know many people there, am a personal friend of Ari and was going to supply a track day car to them for lease. We've done many dealings....you know...in between my video game playing and all.
Team Owner
Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 41,732
Likes: 1,718
From: Springfield MO
Tires are like gasoline. I can run 87 octane or I can run 93 octane in my Z06. Just by selecting a better grade of gas, I can increase my car's performance level. The car remains the same. Only the gas is different and is always available if I want to pay for the better grade(re: higher octane).
Could GM have made the new Michelin super sports the factory tire on the 2013 GS and the Z06 in the 275/325 sizes? Sure they could have and they would have raised the car's performance to a new level but the cars themselves would have remained the same as the 2013 GS/Z06.
Sorry, but I'm not confusing the improvement in tire technology with the car's technology.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 6,937
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From: My interests are mobile
So, the 285 Michelin super sports are equal to the old 325 Goodyear Supercar's on a Z06? Then how do the 285 Michelin super sports compare to the 325 Michelin super sports on a Z06 at the track? Are they still equal?
Tires are like gasoline. I can run 87 octane or I can run 93 octane in my Z06. Just by selecting a better grade of gas, I can increase my car's performance level. The car remains the same. Only the gas is different and is always available if I want to pay for the better grade(re: higher octane).
Could GM have made the new Michelin super sports the factory tire on the 2013 GS and the Z06 in the 275/325 sizes? Sure they could have and they would have raised the car's performance to a new level but the cars themselves would have remained the same as the 2013 GS/Z06.
Sorry, but I'm not confusing the improvement in tire technology with the car's technology.
Tires are like gasoline. I can run 87 octane or I can run 93 octane in my Z06. Just by selecting a better grade of gas, I can increase my car's performance level. The car remains the same. Only the gas is different and is always available if I want to pay for the better grade(re: higher octane).
Could GM have made the new Michelin super sports the factory tire on the 2013 GS and the Z06 in the 275/325 sizes? Sure they could have and they would have raised the car's performance to a new level but the cars themselves would have remained the same as the 2013 GS/Z06.
Sorry, but I'm not confusing the improvement in tire technology with the car's technology.
WHY should the C7 have 325's vs 285's? The C7 achieves well over a G, it's hits in mpg targets, it hit its MSRP targets, and has comfortable sub 4 sec 0-60 times. WHY should it have more tire?
Is it smart business to give away the farm on the base model?? The Z06 will have more handling, more tire, more power, etc....as always! What's the confusion here?
Thread Starter
Safety Car
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 4,377
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From: Danbury CT
Burning Brakes
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 960
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To fit a wider wheel and tire don't worry about the wheel being wider but just figure on the wider tire dimensions on its spec wheel width. Next issue, wheel offset is critical.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
C7
245/40-18, 9.7" section width, 25.7" diameter, 8.5" wheel
285/35-19, 11.4" section width, 26.9" diameter, 10" wheel
C6 GS
275/35-18, 10.9" section width, 25.6" diameter, 9.5" wheel, (9.5" wheel is spec for the tire size)
325/30-19, 13" section width, 26.7" diameter, 12" wheel, (11.5" wheel is spec for the tire size)
So here, the wider front tire needs 15mm more clearance on the outside and 15mm more clearance on the inside. (If 15mm more inside wheel offset were used then the inside would need 30mm more clearance.)
And the wider rear tire needs 20mm more clearance on the outside and 20mm more clearance on the inside. (If 20mm more inside wheel offset were used then the inside would need 40mm more clearance.)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
C7 Z51
245/35-19, 9.8" section width, 25.8" diameter, 8.5" wheel width
285/30-20, 11.4" section width, 26.8" diameter, 10" wheel width
Possible alternative
265/35-19, 10.4" section width, 26.3" diameter, 9.5" wheel width
305/30-20, 12.5" section width, 27.3" diameter, 11" wheel width
And here, the wider front tire needs 8mm more outside clearance and 8mm more inside clearance. (If 8mm more inside wheel offset were used then the inside would need 16mm more clearance.)
Next, the wider rear tire needs 14mm more outside clearance and 14mm more inside clearance. (If 14mm more insider wheel offset were used then the inside would need 28mm more clearance.)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
But looking at the photos of the C7, I'm thinking that the outside can handle the wider tire. That means attempt the stock C7 wheel offset with the wider wheels.
Also, lowering the car can help fit wider tires because the camber of the wheel (and the faster camber curve) can help outside clearance but also find some inside clearance by moving the tire higher in the lateral fender space. Of course it doesn't help if the tire radius tops-out in the vertical fender space
.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
C7
245/40-18, 9.7" section width, 25.7" diameter, 8.5" wheel
285/35-19, 11.4" section width, 26.9" diameter, 10" wheel
C6 GS
275/35-18, 10.9" section width, 25.6" diameter, 9.5" wheel, (9.5" wheel is spec for the tire size)
325/30-19, 13" section width, 26.7" diameter, 12" wheel, (11.5" wheel is spec for the tire size)
So here, the wider front tire needs 15mm more clearance on the outside and 15mm more clearance on the inside. (If 15mm more inside wheel offset were used then the inside would need 30mm more clearance.)
And the wider rear tire needs 20mm more clearance on the outside and 20mm more clearance on the inside. (If 20mm more inside wheel offset were used then the inside would need 40mm more clearance.)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
C7 Z51
245/35-19, 9.8" section width, 25.8" diameter, 8.5" wheel width
285/30-20, 11.4" section width, 26.8" diameter, 10" wheel width
Possible alternative
265/35-19, 10.4" section width, 26.3" diameter, 9.5" wheel width
305/30-20, 12.5" section width, 27.3" diameter, 11" wheel width
And here, the wider front tire needs 8mm more outside clearance and 8mm more inside clearance. (If 8mm more inside wheel offset were used then the inside would need 16mm more clearance.)
Next, the wider rear tire needs 14mm more outside clearance and 14mm more inside clearance. (If 14mm more insider wheel offset were used then the inside would need 28mm more clearance.)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
But looking at the photos of the C7, I'm thinking that the outside can handle the wider tire. That means attempt the stock C7 wheel offset with the wider wheels.
Also, lowering the car can help fit wider tires because the camber of the wheel (and the faster camber curve) can help outside clearance but also find some inside clearance by moving the tire higher in the lateral fender space. Of course it doesn't help if the tire radius tops-out in the vertical fender space
.
Last edited by B Stead; May 22, 2013 at 11:35 PM.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 6,937
Likes: 348
From: My interests are mobile
Yeah...Ari, Chris Faletta, myself, my associate, and Pat Longs team went out to eat one of those nights. You weren't there were you...lol?
Thread Starter
Safety Car
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 4,377
Likes: 1
From: Danbury CT
yep....he passed me out there. I was on the straight approaching the clubhouse and saw him coming...he passed me at full song...scared the SH*T out of the Toyota guy in the passenger seat. We laughed for a half lap about it. He about had a heart attack...
Yeah...Ari, Chris Faletta, myself, my associate, and Pat Longs team went out to eat one of those nights. You weren't there were you...lol?
Yeah...Ari, Chris Faletta, myself, my associate, and Pat Longs team went out to eat one of those nights. You weren't there were you...lol?
I'm pretty sure Chris is no longer there if he is who I'm thinking of.
Thread Starter
Safety Car
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 4,377
Likes: 1
From: Danbury CT
[QUOTE=rcallen484;1583968823]Just as an aside, I would take this baby in a split second and if someone asked me what size the tires were I would say: " What? Seriously. What ? "[QUOTE]
Agreed! Is that the Ferris Bueller California 265 GTB?
Agreed! Is that the Ferris Bueller California 265 GTB?
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 6,937
Likes: 348
From: My interests are mobile
I just uploaded this clip...vid doesn't do the noise justice, plus vid slows everything. Pat was bookin that day...haha.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiMOl...ature=youtu.be
Last edited by RC000E; May 22, 2013 at 10:52 PM.