High torque and DCTs
Drifting
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 1,456
Likes: 5
From: Bothell WA
Are modern torque converter based automatics able to deal with the heat generated by road race track driving? My experience with automatics from a few years ago is that they are easily overheated on the track when run for more than a few minutes at a time. I think that DCTs do better in this regard. Can anyone comment on track suitability of DCT vs. modern TC Autos?
Mark
Mark
Safety Car
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 4,168
Likes: 1,336
From: FLL Florida
Are modern torque converter based automatics able to deal with the heat generated by road race track driving? My experience with automatics from a few years ago is that they are easily overheated on the track when run for more than a few minutes at a time. I think that DCTs do better in this regard. Can anyone comment on track suitability of DCT vs. modern TC Autos?
Mark
Mark
Melting Slicks
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,245
Likes: 2,176
From: Cary NC
Are modern torque converter based automatics able to deal with the heat generated by road race track driving? My experience with automatics from a few years ago is that they are easily overheated on the track when run for more than a few minutes at a time. I think that DCTs do better in this regard. Can anyone comment on track suitability of DCT vs. modern TC Autos?
Mark
Mark
I had an HPDE student a few years ago who was driving an '07 auto. It had an aftermarket tranny cooler, and was otherwise stock. Not the best transmission for the track, but it worked. She was a low/advanced level driver, and to give a data point she was running 2:15s on VIR's Full Course, so she wasn't babying it. The converter was unlocking on the track, and the tranny did get hot, but not too hot. The tranny survived for many more events. Like mentioned, a lot of the trick is heat management. Who knows how much life the tranny had left after those events, though.
I think a DCT designed for track use would be engineered around heat management as well, among other things. A Vette DCT would probably be a wet clutch; I would think the clutch fluid would need a cooler. Either tranny could probably be designed for the track if they desired it.
Race Director
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 16,067
Likes: 4,150
From: Bergen county NJ
GM tested DCT in the C7 mules and blew it up in 3 minutes of testing.
I'm sure it can be designed to run a proper DCT but its sadly not in the cards for the near future.
Buy a stick shift with rev matching up and down as well as launch control...
The automatic torque convertor c7 has not even been tested and all I'm hearing from those who love DCT's are that the Tq convertor automatic is no good.
Common sense would dictate....waiting for the reviews of the journalists before condemning the the tq convertor automatic..
I hope the DCT does become available sooner rather than later as I'm a big fan...
The new 8 speed ZF gives me hope that GM's new 8 speed automatic will be just as good as a the ZF unit which has been reported to be as good as DCT..
I'm sure it can be designed to run a proper DCT but its sadly not in the cards for the near future.
Buy a stick shift with rev matching up and down as well as launch control...
The automatic torque convertor c7 has not even been tested and all I'm hearing from those who love DCT's are that the Tq convertor automatic is no good.
Common sense would dictate....waiting for the reviews of the journalists before condemning the the tq convertor automatic..
I hope the DCT does become available sooner rather than later as I'm a big fan...
The new 8 speed ZF gives me hope that GM's new 8 speed automatic will be just as good as a the ZF unit which has been reported to be as good as DCT..
Melting Slicks
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,159
Likes: 175
What am I missing here?
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Verdad Gallardo
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 27,567
Likes: 99
From: San Diego
Safety Car
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 4,168
Likes: 1,336
From: FLL Florida
[QUOTE=stevelischynsky;1584536649]
He makes things up which is the same as lying.
Lingenfelter is developing a flat crank for LS engines coupled to sequential gearboxes. Maybe there is some GM money behind this project. This will reduce the weight of the crank about 30%. The present 2 plane crank plus the drive shaft will pound a DCT to death. There is no way that you can make it light and cheap. Rev up your Vette and see how long it takes to rev up and slow down. Not exactly like a F458. No auto blip or any other engine management system can change that.
Lingenfelter is developing a flat crank for LS engines coupled to sequential gearboxes. Maybe there is some GM money behind this project. This will reduce the weight of the crank about 30%. The present 2 plane crank plus the drive shaft will pound a DCT to death. There is no way that you can make it light and cheap. Rev up your Vette and see how long it takes to rev up and slow down. Not exactly like a F458. No auto blip or any other engine management system can change that.
Race Director
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 16,067
Likes: 4,150
From: Bergen county NJ
[QUOTE=Shaka;1584538262]
He makes things up which is the same as lying.
Lingenfelter is developing a flat crank for LS engines coupled to sequential gearboxes. Maybe there is some GM money behind this project. This will reduce the weight of the crank about 30%. The present 2 plane crank plus the drive shaft will pound a DCT to death. There is no way that you can make it light and cheap. Rev up your Vette and see how long it takes to rev up and slow down. Not exactly like a F458. No auto blip or any other engine management system can change that.
Thanks for that complement. I'm sorry I can't give details etc...but rest assured gm did test a DCT transmission and it did go kaboom within minutes..
As I mentioned....I'm a big fan of DCT and would like one in my next sports car...
Not more than I would enjoy all the attributes of the corvette compared to other brands...but I'll give it a little time to see if we get lucky and have gm oblige...
Interesting edmunds review of the DCT GTR premium versus the half priced stingray manual..z51 manual MRC would tap 57 grand...if GTR had a few options on the 98 grand..it'd be close to double..
Interesting how sometimes the GTR DCT would power down the car or how after five runs it was no launch control to save the transmission...
Cool tech..
Interesting acceleration for the GTR in traction control on...DCT hits hard n launch but with traction control on.....it's pretty even with a well driven manual or automatic...
He makes things up which is the same as lying.
Lingenfelter is developing a flat crank for LS engines coupled to sequential gearboxes. Maybe there is some GM money behind this project. This will reduce the weight of the crank about 30%. The present 2 plane crank plus the drive shaft will pound a DCT to death. There is no way that you can make it light and cheap. Rev up your Vette and see how long it takes to rev up and slow down. Not exactly like a F458. No auto blip or any other engine management system can change that.
Thanks for that complement. I'm sorry I can't give details etc...but rest assured gm did test a DCT transmission and it did go kaboom within minutes..
As I mentioned....I'm a big fan of DCT and would like one in my next sports car...
Not more than I would enjoy all the attributes of the corvette compared to other brands...but I'll give it a little time to see if we get lucky and have gm oblige...
Interesting edmunds review of the DCT GTR premium versus the half priced stingray manual..z51 manual MRC would tap 57 grand...if GTR had a few options on the 98 grand..it'd be close to double..
Interesting how sometimes the GTR DCT would power down the car or how after five runs it was no launch control to save the transmission...
Cool tech..
Interesting acceleration for the GTR in traction control on...DCT hits hard n launch but with traction control on.....it's pretty even with a well driven manual or automatic...
Safety Car
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 4,629
Likes: 19
From: Chesapeake VA
I think the point of this thread was to showcase how advanced torque-coverter based autos are getting. These new gearboxes shift in < 0.1 seconds in the performance modes. Then go back to smooth shifting in touring modes.
I'll bet C7 completely skips the DCT and goes straight to a high-tech 8-speed auto.
I'll bet C7 completely skips the DCT and goes straight to a high-tech 8-speed auto.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 802
Likes: 1
[QUOTE=JerriVette;1584538361]
I guess I'm having a hard time believing that todays engineers would design anything that would be destroyed in minutes. Everything is designed using computer simulations for stress, etc. The tranny would be tested on a "work bench" set up first. Then would go through a phased testing period. By the time the drivers would get at it, it would have gone through a lot of testing.
Kaboom in minutes makes no sense.
Kaboom in minutes makes no sense.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 5,529
Likes: 1,943
From: Austin Texas
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 5,526
Likes: 16
From: Mechanicsburg Pennsylvania
[QUOTE=stevelischynsky;1584540127]
I guess I'm having a hard time believing that todays engineers would design anything that would be destroyed in minutes. Everything is designed using computer simulations for stress, etc. The tranny would be tested on a "work bench" set up first. Then would go through a phased testing period. By the time the drivers would get at it, it would have gone through a lot of testing.
Kaboom in minutes makes no sense.
^ The Kaboom story is 
I guess I'm having a hard time believing that todays engineers would design anything that would be destroyed in minutes. Everything is designed using computer simulations for stress, etc. The tranny would be tested on a "work bench" set up first. Then would go through a phased testing period. By the time the drivers would get at it, it would have gone through a lot of testing.
Kaboom in minutes makes no sense.
^ The Kaboom story is
Burning Brakes
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 802
Likes: 1
The Kaboom story goes like this:
GM builds only one tranny
They put it into a C7
A driver stomps on it and lays 100 ft of rubber
Tranny goes Kaboom
Driver and test engineer look at smoking tranny
Test engineer says "Oh well, that's that"
Test engineer phones GM head hauncho and tells him DCT doesn't work and GM will need to cancel entire DCT program.
Head hauncho says"But we already have paddles in the C7"
Test engineer"well, ,,,hook up the power antenna switch to it"
Head hauncho"We don't have a power antenna:
Teat engineer" Ahhh, well, hook it up to the rev match Switch. No one will ever figure out it was intended for the DCT"
Head hauncho"Great idea"
And that folks is how the rev match switch got to go where it is.
And
GM builds only one tranny
They put it into a C7
A driver stomps on it and lays 100 ft of rubber
Tranny goes Kaboom
Driver and test engineer look at smoking tranny
Test engineer says "Oh well, that's that"
Test engineer phones GM head hauncho and tells him DCT doesn't work and GM will need to cancel entire DCT program.
Head hauncho says"But we already have paddles in the C7"
Test engineer"well, ,,,hook up the power antenna switch to it"
Head hauncho"We don't have a power antenna:
Teat engineer" Ahhh, well, hook it up to the rev match Switch. No one will ever figure out it was intended for the DCT"
Head hauncho"Great idea"
And that folks is how the rev match switch got to go where it is.
And
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 5,526
Likes: 16
From: Mechanicsburg Pennsylvania
The Kaboom story goes like this:
GM builds only one tranny
They put it into a C7
A driver stomps on it and lays 100 ft of rubber
Tranny goes Kaboom
Driver and test engineer look at smoking tranny
Test engineer says "Oh well, that's that"
Test engineer phones GM head hauncho and tells him DCT doesn't work and GM will need to cancel entire DCT program.
Head hauncho says"But we already have paddles in the C7"
Test engineer"well, ,,,hook up the power antenna switch to it"
Head hauncho"We don't have a power antenna:
Teat engineer" Ahhh, well, hook it up to the rev match Switch. No one will ever figure out it was intended for the DCT"
Head hauncho"Great idea"
And that folks is how the rev match switch got to go where it is.
And
GM builds only one tranny
They put it into a C7
A driver stomps on it and lays 100 ft of rubber
Tranny goes Kaboom
Driver and test engineer look at smoking tranny
Test engineer says "Oh well, that's that"
Test engineer phones GM head hauncho and tells him DCT doesn't work and GM will need to cancel entire DCT program.
Head hauncho says"But we already have paddles in the C7"
Test engineer"well, ,,,hook up the power antenna switch to it"
Head hauncho"We don't have a power antenna:
Teat engineer" Ahhh, well, hook it up to the rev match Switch. No one will ever figure out it was intended for the DCT"
Head hauncho"Great idea"
And that folks is how the rev match switch got to go where it is.
And
OK - Now THAT ^ makes some sense . . . . . though Power Antenna Paddles would have been nice too
