How many people could have been fed for the money that Corvette cost
02-12-2017, 09:02 PM
#101
Burning Brakes
Some people just don't get sarcasm.
It's a dying art I suppose.
As for the number of people the $100k could have fed, it is immaterial. It was my money and my money only feeds those I want it to feed. This question is trying to play on an emotion that shouldn't exist unless your bernie sanders or you could do this with EVERYTHING from the 4K TV to the latest smartphone or Alienwares newest laptop.
How pedestrian.
It's a dying art I suppose.
As for the number of people the $100k could have fed, it is immaterial. It was my money and my money only feeds those I want it to feed. This question is trying to play on an emotion that shouldn't exist unless your bernie sanders or you could do this with EVERYTHING from the 4K TV to the latest smartphone or Alienwares newest laptop.
How pedestrian.
02-12-2017, 09:55 PM
#102
Melting Slicks
Some people just don't get sarcasm.
It's a dying art I suppose.
As for the number of people the $100k could have fed, it is immaterial. It was my money and my money only feeds those I want it to feed. This question is trying to play on an emotion that shouldn't exist unless your bernie sanders or you could do this with EVERYTHING from the 4K TV to the latest smartphone or Alienwares newest laptop.
How pedestrian.
It's a dying art I suppose.
As for the number of people the $100k could have fed, it is immaterial. It was my money and my money only feeds those I want it to feed. This question is trying to play on an emotion that shouldn't exist unless your bernie sanders or you could do this with EVERYTHING from the 4K TV to the latest smartphone or Alienwares newest laptop.
How pedestrian.
02-13-2017, 12:59 PM
#103
I guess my thinking is, at some point a document written by guys who lived in a time when an agrarian society was dominate might be a bit out of touch. The amendments have done a fine job, but at some point you need to rewrite things.
States have done it from time to time, Michigan is on its 3rd constitution (the current one I think was done in 1963). The reason, at some point the amendments (or as I call them the band aids), make the original document look a bit messy.
Read a copy of the constitution with the relevant sections crossed out, and the amendments stuck in (not tacked onto the end) and you get my drift. It gets disjointed and doesn't have the flow of a document anymore. Plus words change meaning overtime making literal interpretation nearly impossible.
The basic premise of the document (separation of defined powers) is probably the best idea of the document, and the pliability of it is the only reason how it survived. Remember though, lawyers did write it, so they knew what they were doing.
It's just a document, like anything else, it need not be worshiped or held as untouchable. If that was the case we'd still be using the Articles of Confederation (people forget the Constitution was the 2nd try). And right now, our constitution looks pretty bad, like a shirt with all sorts of different patches and stitching fixes on it.
Organizations rewrite bylaws and constitutions all the time (usually at a convention). No reason the "original" can't go through that as well.
The only reasonable argument to avoid a total rewrite would be, who do you trust to do it?
States have done it from time to time, Michigan is on its 3rd constitution (the current one I think was done in 1963). The reason, at some point the amendments (or as I call them the band aids), make the original document look a bit messy.
Read a copy of the constitution with the relevant sections crossed out, and the amendments stuck in (not tacked onto the end) and you get my drift. It gets disjointed and doesn't have the flow of a document anymore. Plus words change meaning overtime making literal interpretation nearly impossible.
The basic premise of the document (separation of defined powers) is probably the best idea of the document, and the pliability of it is the only reason how it survived. Remember though, lawyers did write it, so they knew what they were doing.
It's just a document, like anything else, it need not be worshiped or held as untouchable. If that was the case we'd still be using the Articles of Confederation (people forget the Constitution was the 2nd try). And right now, our constitution looks pretty bad, like a shirt with all sorts of different patches and stitching fixes on it.
Organizations rewrite bylaws and constitutions all the time (usually at a convention). No reason the "original" can't go through that as well.
The only reasonable argument to avoid a total rewrite would be, who do you trust to do it?
I see the growth of the federal government as the main source of the perception that the Constitution is dated and it's basic principles no longer apply.
Much of the power delegated to the states has been usurped by a giant bureaucracy, and that was never the intent of the founding fathers.
In fact, and I'm sure you know, the primary reason federal power was limited was because of the tyranny colonists experienced at the hands of the British empire.
We can agree to disagree, but $20 trillion in debt and the waste, fraud and abuse found in Washington punishes all of us.
Leave the enumerated powers in the Constitution to the Feds, let the states manage the rest. That we we all don't pay the price for an out of control ruling class with no regard for We The People.
Last edited by Al Swearengen; 02-13-2017 at 01:01 PM.
02-13-2017, 05:26 PM
#104
Le Mans Master
I'm pretty sure a lot more people would starve if people stopped buying more than the bare necessities than if they bought more.
03-23-2017, 12:59 PM
#108
Consider yourself fortunate. I'm at more than 60% with all the various levels of Gooberments with their hands in my pockets. It is shocking to add it all up.
- Fed Income Tax
- Medicare Taxes
- Property Taxes
- State Income Taxes (ok, none here)
- Sales Taxes, State and local
- Taxes on Utilities, Water, Electricity, Cell Phones (Oboma Phones), Cable
- Gas Taxes
- Fees for Driver Licenses, Car Registrations
Think of how many people THAT would feed
Too bad it will never happen. This is not a GOP vs Democratic thing. Both parties like it this way because both parties have plenty of hyper wealthy members and the wealthy always have the hands on the power levers.
03-23-2017, 01:19 PM
#109
Safety Car
Member Since: Feb 2016
Location: Bainbridge Island WA
Posts: 4,980
Received 3,819 Likes
on
1,615 Posts
Top 1%: 1,399,606 returns paid $392,149mil for 20.70% AGI for 38.02% of taxes
Top 5%: 6,998,029 returns paid $213,569mil for 34.73% AGI for 58.72% share
Top 10%: 13,996,068 returns paid $721,421mil for 45.77% AGI for 69.94% of taxes
Top 25%: 34,990,145 returns paid $890,614mil for 67.38% AGI for 86.34% of taxes
Top 50%: 69,980,290 returns paid $1,003,639mil for 87.25% AGI for 97.30% of taxes
Bottom 50%: 69,980,290 returns paid $27,783 mil for 12.75% AGI for 2.59% of taxes.
AGI = Adjusted Gross Income. So to put this in story problem form:
The top 1% earned 20.70% of the income, but paid 38.02% of all income taxes.
The top 5% earned 34.73% of the income, but paid 58.72% of all income taxes.
The top 10% earned 45.77% of the income, but paid 69.94% of all income taxes.
The top 25% earned 67.38% of the income, but paid 86.34% of all income taxes.
The top 50% earned 87.25% of the income, but paid 97.30% of all income taxes.
The bottom 50% earned 12.75% of the income, but paid 2.59% of all income taxes
Now let’s put that in perspective.
The top 1% means your adjusted gross income is at or above $380,354.
The top 5% means your adjusted gross income is at or above $159,619.
The top 10% means your adjusted gross income is at or above $113,799.
The top 25% means your adjusted gross income is at or above $67,280.
The top 50% means your adjusted gross income is at or above $33,048.
The bottom 50% means your adjusted gross income is below $33,048.
The top 1% already pay 38% of all taxes. The top 25%, where I'm guessing most of us fit, already pay 86% of all taxes. How much more do you want these guys to pay before you think is is "fair" in your eyes?
The following 3 users liked this post by mschuyler:
03-23-2017, 01:22 PM
#110
Approximately 47% of citizens pay ZERO federal income tax. My question: What is fair about ZERO?
In order for the population to have an engaged opinion on the bloated government bureaucracy they first need to have some skin in the game. Otherwise, they don't give a rat's *** how our tax dollars are being spent.
Fair share means flat tax. At a 10% rate if you make $2,000,000 you pay $200,000. If you make $20,000 you pay $2,000. That will get most citizens involved and they will care about what the clowns in Washington are doing with the almost $4,000,000,000,000 in tax revenue.
Without the top 1% providing jobs and capital investment, many of us wouldn't have the disposable income to buy a Corvette.
Last edited by Al Swearengen; 03-23-2017 at 01:27 PM.
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owc6 (03-23-2017)
03-23-2017, 01:30 PM
#111
Instructor
When was the last time any of you saw a "starving" person in the US? There is so much free food out there that it is pathetic. There should be a scale at the entrance of every food pantry. If you are over 200 lbs (for example) you are disqualified from receiving the government cheese!
Last edited by FUZZBAIT; 03-23-2017 at 01:31 PM.
03-23-2017, 01:37 PM
#112
Le Mans Master
/rant on
I am so sick of the "fair share" commentary. I am not in the top percent. But we already have too many taxes. We need better management of tax payer money (no matter what party is in office) and less government waste and overhead.
Nobody paid a penny for me to go to college. I worked the whole time I was in school, got a scholarship, and then joined the Army. So sick off free handouts. I work in technology and we need more technical people and engineers. These jobs pay very good money and more and more we have to outsource because there is not a big enough pool of graduates in the US. There are jobs and opportunities out there for the taking. But it seems like more and more than people just want things given to them, or it is "too hard" to work low income jobs to position yourself for bigger and better things.
/rant off
I am so sick of the "fair share" commentary. I am not in the top percent. But we already have too many taxes. We need better management of tax payer money (no matter what party is in office) and less government waste and overhead.
Nobody paid a penny for me to go to college. I worked the whole time I was in school, got a scholarship, and then joined the Army. So sick off free handouts. I work in technology and we need more technical people and engineers. These jobs pay very good money and more and more we have to outsource because there is not a big enough pool of graduates in the US. There are jobs and opportunities out there for the taking. But it seems like more and more than people just want things given to them, or it is "too hard" to work low income jobs to position yourself for bigger and better things.
/rant off
Last edited by thill444; 03-23-2017 at 01:41 PM.
03-23-2017, 01:46 PM
#113
What exactly is a "fair share"? Usually that means you pay too much and anyone making more than you pays too little. Here are some actual figures from the IRS. the figures are adjusted to 2010 so a little old, but nothing much has changed:
Top 1%: 1,399,606 returns paid $392,149mil for 20.70% AGI for 38.02% of taxes
Top 5%: 6,998,029 returns paid $213,569mil for 34.73% AGI for 58.72% share
Top 10%: 13,996,068 returns paid $721,421mil for 45.77% AGI for 69.94% of taxes
Top 25%: 34,990,145 returns paid $890,614mil for 67.38% AGI for 86.34% of taxes
Top 50%: 69,980,290 returns paid $1,003,639mil for 87.25% AGI for 97.30% of taxes
Bottom 50%: 69,980,290 returns paid $27,783 mil for 12.75% AGI for 2.59% of taxes.
AGI = Adjusted Gross Income. So to put this in story problem form:
The top 1% earned 20.70% of the income, but paid 38.02% of all income taxes.
The top 5% earned 34.73% of the income, but paid 58.72% of all income taxes.
The top 10% earned 45.77% of the income, but paid 69.94% of all income taxes.
The top 25% earned 67.38% of the income, but paid 86.34% of all income taxes.
The top 50% earned 87.25% of the income, but paid 97.30% of all income taxes.
The bottom 50% earned 12.75% of the income, but paid 2.59% of all income taxes
Now let’s put that in perspective.
The top 1% means your adjusted gross income is at or above $380,354.
The top 5% means your adjusted gross income is at or above $159,619.
The top 10% means your adjusted gross income is at or above $113,799.
The top 25% means your adjusted gross income is at or above $67,280.
The top 50% means your adjusted gross income is at or above $33,048.
The bottom 50% means your adjusted gross income is below $33,048.
The top 1% already pay 38% of all taxes. The top 25%, where I'm guessing most of us fit, already pay 86% of all taxes. How much more do you want these guys to pay before you think is is "fair" in your eyes?
Top 1%: 1,399,606 returns paid $392,149mil for 20.70% AGI for 38.02% of taxes
Top 5%: 6,998,029 returns paid $213,569mil for 34.73% AGI for 58.72% share
Top 10%: 13,996,068 returns paid $721,421mil for 45.77% AGI for 69.94% of taxes
Top 25%: 34,990,145 returns paid $890,614mil for 67.38% AGI for 86.34% of taxes
Top 50%: 69,980,290 returns paid $1,003,639mil for 87.25% AGI for 97.30% of taxes
Bottom 50%: 69,980,290 returns paid $27,783 mil for 12.75% AGI for 2.59% of taxes.
AGI = Adjusted Gross Income. So to put this in story problem form:
The top 1% earned 20.70% of the income, but paid 38.02% of all income taxes.
The top 5% earned 34.73% of the income, but paid 58.72% of all income taxes.
The top 10% earned 45.77% of the income, but paid 69.94% of all income taxes.
The top 25% earned 67.38% of the income, but paid 86.34% of all income taxes.
The top 50% earned 87.25% of the income, but paid 97.30% of all income taxes.
The bottom 50% earned 12.75% of the income, but paid 2.59% of all income taxes
Now let’s put that in perspective.
The top 1% means your adjusted gross income is at or above $380,354.
The top 5% means your adjusted gross income is at or above $159,619.
The top 10% means your adjusted gross income is at or above $113,799.
The top 25% means your adjusted gross income is at or above $67,280.
The top 50% means your adjusted gross income is at or above $33,048.
The bottom 50% means your adjusted gross income is below $33,048.
The top 1% already pay 38% of all taxes. The top 25%, where I'm guessing most of us fit, already pay 86% of all taxes. How much more do you want these guys to pay before you think is is "fair" in your eyes?
you earn all told $50K, you pay $10K
100K, you pay $20K. A million, you pay $200K
and so on. It's fair, reasonable, equitable. And the pain is even across the board.
That's fair in my opinion. I'm well aware that the top earners contribute the most total dollars, but that is not the same as fair and equitable in terms of percentage equality.
03-23-2017, 01:58 PM
#114
/rant on
I am so sick of the "fair share" commentary. I am not in the top percent. But we already have too many taxes. We need better management of tax payer money (no matter what party is in office) and less government waste and overhead.
Nobody paid a penny for me to go to college. I worked the whole time I was in school, got a scholarship, and then joined the Army. So sick off free handouts. I work in technology and we need more technical people and engineers. These jobs pay very good money and more and more we have to outsource because there is not a big enough pool of graduates in the US. There are jobs and opportunities out there for the taking. But it seems like more and more than people just want things given to them, or it is "too hard" to work low income jobs to position yourself for bigger and better things.
/rant off
I am so sick of the "fair share" commentary. I am not in the top percent. But we already have too many taxes. We need better management of tax payer money (no matter what party is in office) and less government waste and overhead.
Nobody paid a penny for me to go to college. I worked the whole time I was in school, got a scholarship, and then joined the Army. So sick off free handouts. I work in technology and we need more technical people and engineers. These jobs pay very good money and more and more we have to outsource because there is not a big enough pool of graduates in the US. There are jobs and opportunities out there for the taking. But it seems like more and more than people just want things given to them, or it is "too hard" to work low income jobs to position yourself for bigger and better things.
/rant off
03-23-2017, 02:49 PM
#115
Safety Car
Before you dismiss my comment as more 'noise" from the side of the political spectrum that most here are certainly not from, consider this: Do you feel your tax bite?
I sure do. Does your yearly financial planning involve any potential refund or tax due bill? Mine does.
And yet with hard work, and having the fortune of a very good starting point, I have a newish Vette and a comfortable home and a better than average income. So if most of us here have to feel the pinch of paying taxes and having that pinch influence the life we live, why should those at the very top not have to feel it as well?
I am NOT advocating punitive taxation
- but I feel everybody should pay the same percentage as everybody else.
Instead we have a taxation system that allows those who make the most pay the least in terms of income.
That percentage of overall income is what makes paying taxes painful and nobody should have it easier or worse than anybody else. That is why a flat tax would be a real answer. everybody pays 20% across the board. No deductions. For those who say that will stagnate investment and growth by the richer folks, think again. Fully 70% of all GDP is driven by all consumer spending. Us unwashed masses included
Think of how many people THAT would feed
Too bad it will never happen. This is not a GOP vs Democratic thing. Both parties like it this way because both parties have plenty of hyper wealthy members and the wealthy always have the hands on the power levers.
Too bad it will never happen. This is not a GOP vs Democratic thing. Both parties like it this way because both parties have plenty of hyper wealthy members and the wealthy always have the hands on the power levers.
03-23-2017, 02:54 PM
#116
Safety Car
Without the top 1% providing jobs and capital investment, many of us wouldn't have the disposable income to buy a Corvette.
03-23-2017, 02:57 PM
#117
Safety Car
I see one every day! He lives across the street in his car and spends his days begging for money directly under a sign that says, effectively, "Do not give money to panhandlers". The sign does nothing to dissuade him. This is the gawd's honest truth and he's been there every day in the 7 months that I've lived here. Starving? Maybe not but I surely wouldn't want to subsist on whatever little amount of food he gets.
03-23-2017, 03:03 PM
#118
Safety Car
Book recommendation Equal Is Unfair:
skillfully addresses the inequality critics which is the driving force beneath those who believe "fair share" means something other than mathimatically proven percentages...
I could say the same 'cept one semester I was short and agreed with my mom to cut my then long hair and she'd help pay for that semester...
We've gone in similar directions. Also schooled myself, learned hard, worked hard for like 40 years now. I think a lot of people just assume the "rich" were just handed money. They can't believe that people can rise from poverty like I did. The book above talks about a lot of this. Also available on Audible.
Nobody paid a penny for me to go to college.
I worked the whole time I was in school, got a scholarship, and then joined the Army. So sick off free handouts. I work in technology and we need more technical people and engineers. These jobs pay very good money and more and more we have to outsource because there is not a big enough pool of graduates in the US. There are jobs and opportunities out there for the taking. But it seems like more and more than people just want things given to them, or it is "too hard" to work low income jobs to position yourself for bigger and better things.
03-23-2017, 03:11 PM
#119
Safety Car
However, even if you invest your savings and pay 15% capital gains isn't it amazing, that with that reduction in taxation the rich still pay the vast majority of the taxes! Chew on that!
I'm not a tax expert and will not pretend to be. So to answer your question, what is fair in my eyes:
you earn all told $50K, you pay $10K
100K, you pay $20K. A million, you pay $200K
and so on. It's fair, reasonable, equitable. And the pain is even across the board.
That's fair in my opinion. I'm well aware that the top earners contribute the most total dollars, but that is not the same as fair and equitable in terms of percentage equality.
you earn all told $50K, you pay $10K
100K, you pay $20K. A million, you pay $200K
and so on. It's fair, reasonable, equitable. And the pain is even across the board.
That's fair in my opinion. I'm well aware that the top earners contribute the most total dollars, but that is not the same as fair and equitable in terms of percentage equality.
The problem, in a nutshell, is that we've allowed out government too much power and it's running too many things. Why should the government "run" the economy? Why should the government be in charge of handing out favors to lobbyists, tax breaks to certain endeavors to "spur growth" and implementing heavy regulations to stifle competition? The answer, my friends, is not blowing in the win but to restrict governments power and put it back in the hands of the people. It is not the government's job to do social engineering through taxation and to run the economy. It's the government's job to provide for defense, the resolution of disputes (courts), and to protect individual's rights - not implement healthcare and steer the economy. And until people wake up and realize this we will continue to have this mess.
03-23-2017, 03:20 PM
#120
Drifting
Adam Smith would is probably spinning in his grave....