C7 Bulb Replacement
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 394
Likes: 187
From: Clinton Twp MI
C7 Bulb Replacement
Back in the 2015 timeframe, everyone was replacing their trunk and license plate incandescent bulbs with LED bulbs. I did this to my 2015 and appreciated the brighter, cleaner light the LEDs provide.
Recently, I traded the 2015 for a 2019 GS and plan to do the same. However in the 2019 owners manual, the section pertaining to bulb changes in these areas now carries a Caution stating "Do not replace incandescent bulbs with aftermarket LED replacement bulbs. This can cause damage to the vehicle electrical system."
I never had any issues with my 2015. While I am certainly not an electrician, I can't see how the LEDs will cause any damage.
Any thoughts on why the owners manual now contains this caution?
Thanks
Jim
Recently, I traded the 2015 for a 2019 GS and plan to do the same. However in the 2019 owners manual, the section pertaining to bulb changes in these areas now carries a Caution stating "Do not replace incandescent bulbs with aftermarket LED replacement bulbs. This can cause damage to the vehicle electrical system."
I never had any issues with my 2015. While I am certainly not an electrician, I can't see how the LEDs will cause any damage.
Any thoughts on why the owners manual now contains this caution?
Thanks
Jim
Popular Reply
Dec 11, 2018, 01:44 PM
Burning Brakes
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,051
Likes: 690
Modern car's electricity is carried over what's called a "bus." The car's ECU, sensors, communication, infotainment, including interior and exterior lighting, all share electricity, power, AND SIGNAL through this "bus" system. I don't know what GM uses, but a common automotive industry standard is the CAN-bus, invented and standardized in the mid 1980s. The benefit of using such a way to transmit electricity and signals throughout the car, is it eliminates a bunch of individual wires running all throughout the car (cost), but the side effect is that your interior light-bulb shares the same power and signal as your car's ECU, speed sensors, temperature sensors, and a slew of other components that rely on electricity.
See where I am going with this?
While changing the interior bulb or license plate bulb shouldn't have any issues, because lightbulbs are lightbulbs, right? I mean, I changed out all the incandescent lightbulbs in the house to LEDs and it saves $$$ and electricity, no? In a car where all the sensors and signals travel through the same set of wires, this can potentially be disastrous. A signal that's used to traveling through the wires that's expected to see the same amount of power draw is now all of a sudden seeing oscillating spikes (LED). Signals traveling throughout the car that relies on the same wires for ground, will now have to contend with the unexpected change in current draw.
Now, this isn't to say you're guaranteed to have issues. The change in current traveling to LEDs may not impact how the rest of the electronics operates, and typically it wouldn't. None of the interior lights have more than just a 12V switched power and ground. However, changing that "ground" which is shared by all the electronics in the car is not something electrical engineers accounted for when they designed the car, therefore there's absolutely zero guarantee that it won't impact car's electrical operations on the CAN bus.
Most electrical engineers would probably tell you that within a 99% certainty it won't have any impact. But that 1% is what GM is banking on, that if you do put in LED in your car, and for some reason the headlight goes out? It's the LED's fault, replace the headlight control module on your dime. Hence the language is put into the owner's manual that we're discouraged from using non-standardized, LED lighting vs traditional incandescent light.
Anecdote time. I put in HIDs to replace the headlights on my Hyundai Veloster Turbo (yes gawd damn it I owned a Hyundai before). The Veloster Turbo comes with projector type lens for the headlight, but uses the more modern M-Bus architecture (IIRC) which is even more sensitive to changes in bus signal. It took several attempts to get the HIDs working on the Hyundai, and eventually when it WORKED, it would trigger a tire pressure sensor warning. Apparently the voltage pulses that the HID creates in the electrical system confuses the crap out of the controller that takes in the TPM's signal. It took some tin-foil, a bunch of capacitors and resistors to even out the signal, and then eventually I just gave up and manually monitored the tire pressure instead of relying on the TPM, because every 3 or 4 days the tire pressure light would come on and I would have to reset it.
But that's more of an extreme case (M-Buses are especially sensitive...Try working on the electrical on a German or Korean car). Most modern LEDs that replaces traditional in-car incandescent lights have resistors that simulate the draw and current flow of incandescent lights and prevents the pulsing change in current that LEDs typically create that drives automobile communication busses nuts. I suppose there's enough people putting in CHEAP LEDs that would end up triggering some other electrical problems that lead them to the dealer warranty claim department that GM is tired of paying for it.
See where I am going with this?
While changing the interior bulb or license plate bulb shouldn't have any issues, because lightbulbs are lightbulbs, right? I mean, I changed out all the incandescent lightbulbs in the house to LEDs and it saves $$$ and electricity, no? In a car where all the sensors and signals travel through the same set of wires, this can potentially be disastrous. A signal that's used to traveling through the wires that's expected to see the same amount of power draw is now all of a sudden seeing oscillating spikes (LED). Signals traveling throughout the car that relies on the same wires for ground, will now have to contend with the unexpected change in current draw.
Now, this isn't to say you're guaranteed to have issues. The change in current traveling to LEDs may not impact how the rest of the electronics operates, and typically it wouldn't. None of the interior lights have more than just a 12V switched power and ground. However, changing that "ground" which is shared by all the electronics in the car is not something electrical engineers accounted for when they designed the car, therefore there's absolutely zero guarantee that it won't impact car's electrical operations on the CAN bus.
Most electrical engineers would probably tell you that within a 99% certainty it won't have any impact. But that 1% is what GM is banking on, that if you do put in LED in your car, and for some reason the headlight goes out? It's the LED's fault, replace the headlight control module on your dime. Hence the language is put into the owner's manual that we're discouraged from using non-standardized, LED lighting vs traditional incandescent light.
Anecdote time. I put in HIDs to replace the headlights on my Hyundai Veloster Turbo (yes gawd damn it I owned a Hyundai before). The Veloster Turbo comes with projector type lens for the headlight, but uses the more modern M-Bus architecture (IIRC) which is even more sensitive to changes in bus signal. It took several attempts to get the HIDs working on the Hyundai, and eventually when it WORKED, it would trigger a tire pressure sensor warning. Apparently the voltage pulses that the HID creates in the electrical system confuses the crap out of the controller that takes in the TPM's signal. It took some tin-foil, a bunch of capacitors and resistors to even out the signal, and then eventually I just gave up and manually monitored the tire pressure instead of relying on the TPM, because every 3 or 4 days the tire pressure light would come on and I would have to reset it.
But that's more of an extreme case (M-Buses are especially sensitive...Try working on the electrical on a German or Korean car). Most modern LEDs that replaces traditional in-car incandescent lights have resistors that simulate the draw and current flow of incandescent lights and prevents the pulsing change in current that LEDs typically create that drives automobile communication busses nuts. I suppose there's enough people putting in CHEAP LEDs that would end up triggering some other electrical problems that lead them to the dealer warranty claim department that GM is tired of paying for it.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,051
Likes: 690
Modern car's electricity is carried over what's called a "bus." The car's ECU, sensors, communication, infotainment, including interior and exterior lighting, all share electricity, power, AND SIGNAL through this "bus" system. I don't know what GM uses, but a common automotive industry standard is the CAN-bus, invented and standardized in the mid 1980s. The benefit of using such a way to transmit electricity and signals throughout the car, is it eliminates a bunch of individual wires running all throughout the car (cost), but the side effect is that your interior light-bulb shares the same power and signal as your car's ECU, speed sensors, temperature sensors, and a slew of other components that rely on electricity.
See where I am going with this?
While changing the interior bulb or license plate bulb shouldn't have any issues, because lightbulbs are lightbulbs, right? I mean, I changed out all the incandescent lightbulbs in the house to LEDs and it saves $$$ and electricity, no? In a car where all the sensors and signals travel through the same set of wires, this can potentially be disastrous. A signal that's used to traveling through the wires that's expected to see the same amount of power draw is now all of a sudden seeing oscillating spikes (LED). Signals traveling throughout the car that relies on the same wires for ground, will now have to contend with the unexpected change in current draw.
Now, this isn't to say you're guaranteed to have issues. The change in current traveling to LEDs may not impact how the rest of the electronics operates, and typically it wouldn't. None of the interior lights have more than just a 12V switched power and ground. However, changing that "ground" which is shared by all the electronics in the car is not something electrical engineers accounted for when they designed the car, therefore there's absolutely zero guarantee that it won't impact car's electrical operations on the CAN bus.
Most electrical engineers would probably tell you that within a 99% certainty it won't have any impact. But that 1% is what GM is banking on, that if you do put in LED in your car, and for some reason the headlight goes out? It's the LED's fault, replace the headlight control module on your dime. Hence the language is put into the owner's manual that we're discouraged from using non-standardized, LED lighting vs traditional incandescent light.
Anecdote time. I put in HIDs to replace the headlights on my Hyundai Veloster Turbo (yes gawd damn it I owned a Hyundai before). The Veloster Turbo comes with projector type lens for the headlight, but uses the more modern M-Bus architecture (IIRC) which is even more sensitive to changes in bus signal. It took several attempts to get the HIDs working on the Hyundai, and eventually when it WORKED, it would trigger a tire pressure sensor warning. Apparently the voltage pulses that the HID creates in the electrical system confuses the crap out of the controller that takes in the TPM's signal. It took some tin-foil, a bunch of capacitors and resistors to even out the signal, and then eventually I just gave up and manually monitored the tire pressure instead of relying on the TPM, because every 3 or 4 days the tire pressure light would come on and I would have to reset it.
But that's more of an extreme case (M-Buses are especially sensitive...Try working on the electrical on a German or Korean car). Most modern LEDs that replaces traditional in-car incandescent lights have resistors that simulate the draw and current flow of incandescent lights and prevents the pulsing change in current that LEDs typically create that drives automobile communication busses nuts. I suppose there's enough people putting in CHEAP LEDs that would end up triggering some other electrical problems that lead them to the dealer warranty claim department that GM is tired of paying for it.
See where I am going with this?
While changing the interior bulb or license plate bulb shouldn't have any issues, because lightbulbs are lightbulbs, right? I mean, I changed out all the incandescent lightbulbs in the house to LEDs and it saves $$$ and electricity, no? In a car where all the sensors and signals travel through the same set of wires, this can potentially be disastrous. A signal that's used to traveling through the wires that's expected to see the same amount of power draw is now all of a sudden seeing oscillating spikes (LED). Signals traveling throughout the car that relies on the same wires for ground, will now have to contend with the unexpected change in current draw.
Now, this isn't to say you're guaranteed to have issues. The change in current traveling to LEDs may not impact how the rest of the electronics operates, and typically it wouldn't. None of the interior lights have more than just a 12V switched power and ground. However, changing that "ground" which is shared by all the electronics in the car is not something electrical engineers accounted for when they designed the car, therefore there's absolutely zero guarantee that it won't impact car's electrical operations on the CAN bus.
Most electrical engineers would probably tell you that within a 99% certainty it won't have any impact. But that 1% is what GM is banking on, that if you do put in LED in your car, and for some reason the headlight goes out? It's the LED's fault, replace the headlight control module on your dime. Hence the language is put into the owner's manual that we're discouraged from using non-standardized, LED lighting vs traditional incandescent light.
Anecdote time. I put in HIDs to replace the headlights on my Hyundai Veloster Turbo (yes gawd damn it I owned a Hyundai before). The Veloster Turbo comes with projector type lens for the headlight, but uses the more modern M-Bus architecture (IIRC) which is even more sensitive to changes in bus signal. It took several attempts to get the HIDs working on the Hyundai, and eventually when it WORKED, it would trigger a tire pressure sensor warning. Apparently the voltage pulses that the HID creates in the electrical system confuses the crap out of the controller that takes in the TPM's signal. It took some tin-foil, a bunch of capacitors and resistors to even out the signal, and then eventually I just gave up and manually monitored the tire pressure instead of relying on the TPM, because every 3 or 4 days the tire pressure light would come on and I would have to reset it.
But that's more of an extreme case (M-Buses are especially sensitive...Try working on the electrical on a German or Korean car). Most modern LEDs that replaces traditional in-car incandescent lights have resistors that simulate the draw and current flow of incandescent lights and prevents the pulsing change in current that LEDs typically create that drives automobile communication busses nuts. I suppose there's enough people putting in CHEAP LEDs that would end up triggering some other electrical problems that lead them to the dealer warranty claim department that GM is tired of paying for it.
Safety Car
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 4,754
Likes: 1,650
Modern car's electricity is carried over what's called a "bus." The car's ECU, sensors, communication, infotainment, including interior and exterior lighting, all share electricity, power, AND SIGNAL through this "bus" system. I don't know what GM uses, but a common automotive industry standard is the CAN-bus, invented and standardized in the mid 1980s. The benefit of using such a way to transmit electricity and signals throughout the car, is it eliminates a bunch of individual wires running all throughout the car (cost), but the side effect is that your interior light-bulb shares the same power and signal as your car's ECU, speed sensors, temperature sensors, and a slew of other components that rely on electricity.
See where I am going with this?
While changing the interior bulb or license plate bulb shouldn't have any issues, because lightbulbs are lightbulbs, right? I mean, I changed out all the incandescent lightbulbs in the house to LEDs and it saves $$$ and electricity, no? In a car where all the sensors and signals travel through the same set of wires, this can potentially be disastrous. A signal that's used to traveling through the wires that's expected to see the same amount of power draw is now all of a sudden seeing oscillating spikes (LED). Signals traveling throughout the car that relies on the same wires for ground, will now have to contend with the unexpected change in current draw.
Now, this isn't to say you're guaranteed to have issues. The change in current traveling to LEDs may not impact how the rest of the electronics operates, and typically it wouldn't. None of the interior lights have more than just a 12V switched power and ground. However, changing that "ground" which is shared by all the electronics in the car is not something electrical engineers accounted for when they designed the car, therefore there's absolutely zero guarantee that it won't impact car's electrical operations on the CAN bus.
Most electrical engineers would probably tell you that within a 99% certainty it won't have any impact. But that 1% is what GM is banking on, that if you do put in LED in your car, and for some reason the headlight goes out? It's the LED's fault, replace the headlight control module on your dime. Hence the language is put into the owner's manual that we're discouraged from using non-standardized, LED lighting vs traditional incandescent light.
Anecdote time. I put in HIDs to replace the headlights on my Hyundai Veloster Turbo (yes gawd damn it I owned a Hyundai before). The Veloster Turbo comes with projector type lens for the headlight, but uses the more modern M-Bus architecture (IIRC) which is even more sensitive to changes in bus signal. It took several attempts to get the HIDs working on the Hyundai, and eventually when it WORKED, it would trigger a tire pressure sensor warning. Apparently the voltage pulses that the HID creates in the electrical system confuses the crap out of the controller that takes in the TPM's signal. It took some tin-foil, a bunch of capacitors and resistors to even out the signal, and then eventually I just gave up and manually monitored the tire pressure instead of relying on the TPM, because every 3 or 4 days the tire pressure light would come on and I would have to reset it.
But that's more of an extreme case (M-Buses are especially sensitive...Try working on the electrical on a German or Korean car). Most modern LEDs that replaces traditional in-car incandescent lights have resistors that simulate the draw and current flow of incandescent lights and prevents the pulsing change in current that LEDs typically create that drives automobile communication busses nuts. I suppose there's enough people putting in CHEAP LEDs that would end up triggering some other electrical problems that lead them to the dealer warranty claim department that GM is tired of paying for it.
See where I am going with this?
While changing the interior bulb or license plate bulb shouldn't have any issues, because lightbulbs are lightbulbs, right? I mean, I changed out all the incandescent lightbulbs in the house to LEDs and it saves $$$ and electricity, no? In a car where all the sensors and signals travel through the same set of wires, this can potentially be disastrous. A signal that's used to traveling through the wires that's expected to see the same amount of power draw is now all of a sudden seeing oscillating spikes (LED). Signals traveling throughout the car that relies on the same wires for ground, will now have to contend with the unexpected change in current draw.
Now, this isn't to say you're guaranteed to have issues. The change in current traveling to LEDs may not impact how the rest of the electronics operates, and typically it wouldn't. None of the interior lights have more than just a 12V switched power and ground. However, changing that "ground" which is shared by all the electronics in the car is not something electrical engineers accounted for when they designed the car, therefore there's absolutely zero guarantee that it won't impact car's electrical operations on the CAN bus.
Most electrical engineers would probably tell you that within a 99% certainty it won't have any impact. But that 1% is what GM is banking on, that if you do put in LED in your car, and for some reason the headlight goes out? It's the LED's fault, replace the headlight control module on your dime. Hence the language is put into the owner's manual that we're discouraged from using non-standardized, LED lighting vs traditional incandescent light.
Anecdote time. I put in HIDs to replace the headlights on my Hyundai Veloster Turbo (yes gawd damn it I owned a Hyundai before). The Veloster Turbo comes with projector type lens for the headlight, but uses the more modern M-Bus architecture (IIRC) which is even more sensitive to changes in bus signal. It took several attempts to get the HIDs working on the Hyundai, and eventually when it WORKED, it would trigger a tire pressure sensor warning. Apparently the voltage pulses that the HID creates in the electrical system confuses the crap out of the controller that takes in the TPM's signal. It took some tin-foil, a bunch of capacitors and resistors to even out the signal, and then eventually I just gave up and manually monitored the tire pressure instead of relying on the TPM, because every 3 or 4 days the tire pressure light would come on and I would have to reset it.
But that's more of an extreme case (M-Buses are especially sensitive...Try working on the electrical on a German or Korean car). Most modern LEDs that replaces traditional in-car incandescent lights have resistors that simulate the draw and current flow of incandescent lights and prevents the pulsing change in current that LEDs typically create that drives automobile communication busses nuts. I suppose there's enough people putting in CHEAP LEDs that would end up triggering some other electrical problems that lead them to the dealer warranty claim department that GM is tired of paying for it.
Advanced
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 68
Likes: 35
From: Pittsburgh
The bus is a communication system for modules to share information. It doesn’t provide electricity to anything. That would come from drivers in specific modules. Modules can determine how much current a specific load draws (light,motor,etc). If it sees too little or too much it could shut the circuit down and set a fault code.
Team Owner
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 136,140
Likes: 2,432
From: I live my life by 2 rules. 1) Never share everything you know. 2)
St. Jude Donor '11-'12-'13, '16-'17-'18
The bus is a communication system for modules to share information. It doesn’t provide electricity to anything. That would come from drivers in specific modules. Modules can determine how much current a specific load draws (light,motor,etc). If it sees too little or too much it could shut the circuit down and set a fault code.
(I replaced the license plate and rear cargo area lights on my 2019 GS with LED replacements and no issues...)
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Safety Car
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 4,303
Likes: 2,055
From: Margate, FL
I would swap them in and see what happens. If random electrical gremlins appear you just swap back. Its not like GM changed the wiring circuits for the lights between the 15 and 19 years. I bet the warning is just a CYA on their part after they noticed many people doing the LED upgrade.
Le Mans Master
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 6,655
Likes: 821
From: FORT LAUDERDALE FL
https://www.superbrightleds.com/cat/...ign=holiday18b
CAN Bus LED replacement bulbs can fit numerous vehicle applications such as trunk lights, hood lights, dome lights, map lights and footwell lights. This 194 bulb replaces a variety of traditional bulbs including 194, 168 and 912 bulbs. It has 5 LEDs (5050 SMD) that are radially mounted to create a 360° viewing angle for better, allover light emission with reduced hot spots. Error-free LED bulbs are designed to communicate with your vehicle's CAN Bus computer system and prevent "bulb out" error messages. Short, tower-style design with miniature wedge base for easy plug-and-play installation. The energy-efficient bulb has 12V DC operation and is designed to last 30,000 hours on your car, truck, SUV, or van—25 times longer than incandescent bulbs. Available in cool, natural, and warm white, amber and red
CAN Bus LED replacement bulbs can fit numerous vehicle applications such as trunk lights, hood lights, dome lights, map lights and footwell lights. This 194 bulb replaces a variety of traditional bulbs including 194, 168 and 912 bulbs. It has 5 LEDs (5050 SMD) that are radially mounted to create a 360° viewing angle for better, allover light emission with reduced hot spots. Error-free LED bulbs are designed to communicate with your vehicle's CAN Bus computer system and prevent "bulb out" error messages. Short, tower-style design with miniature wedge base for easy plug-and-play installation. The energy-efficient bulb has 12V DC operation and is designed to last 30,000 hours on your car, truck, SUV, or van—25 times longer than incandescent bulbs. Available in cool, natural, and warm white, amber and red
Safety Car
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 4,754
Likes: 1,650
https://www.superbrightleds.com/cat/...ign=holiday18b
CAN Bus LED replacement bulbs can fit numerous vehicle applications such as trunk lights, hood lights, dome lights, map lights and footwell lights. This 194 bulb replaces a variety of traditional bulbs including 194, 168 and 912 bulbs. It has 5 LEDs (5050 SMD) that are radially mounted to create a 360° viewing angle for better, allover light emission with reduced hot spots. Error-free LED bulbs are designed to communicate with your vehicle's CAN Bus computer system and prevent "bulb out" error messages. Short, tower-style design with miniature wedge base for easy plug-and-play installation. The energy-efficient bulb has 12V DC operation and is designed to last 30,000 hours on your car, truck, SUV, or van—25 times longer than incandescent bulbs. Available in cool, natural, and warm white, amber and red
CAN Bus LED replacement bulbs can fit numerous vehicle applications such as trunk lights, hood lights, dome lights, map lights and footwell lights. This 194 bulb replaces a variety of traditional bulbs including 194, 168 and 912 bulbs. It has 5 LEDs (5050 SMD) that are radially mounted to create a 360° viewing angle for better, allover light emission with reduced hot spots. Error-free LED bulbs are designed to communicate with your vehicle's CAN Bus computer system and prevent "bulb out" error messages. Short, tower-style design with miniature wedge base for easy plug-and-play installation. The energy-efficient bulb has 12V DC operation and is designed to last 30,000 hours on your car, truck, SUV, or van—25 times longer than incandescent bulbs. Available in cool, natural, and warm white, amber and red
Le Mans Master
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 6,655
Likes: 821
From: FORT LAUDERDALE FL
MMD, the only thing that I can confirm is that I have always been aware of the possible issue and have always used CAN bus bulbs and have never had an issue. My new CTS did not come with led backup/plate bulbs and have the same bulbs without issue.
Safety Car
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 4,754
Likes: 1,650
THX JJ for the info. I'll give them a try.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,051
Likes: 690
Okay, I'll confess. I'm a marketing professional. Social media is my forte. And while I use ALL the platforms regularly for work, Twitter is the ONLY one I am not active on for personal use.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,979
Likes: 4,142
From: Kansas City, MO
"CANbus" has nothing to do with the lights themselves. It's just a data network. People just call them "CANbus bulbs" because they don't know any better, and most cars started to get 'smart' enough to detect dead bulbs around the time CANbus networking started to take off.
For what it's worth, older German cars and Volvos could detect dead bulbs using solid state relays. Those cars had almost no computers to speak of.
For what it's worth, older German cars and Volvos could detect dead bulbs using solid state relays. Those cars had almost no computers to speak of.
Team Owner
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 136,140
Likes: 2,432
From: I live my life by 2 rules. 1) Never share everything you know. 2)
St. Jude Donor '11-'12-'13, '16-'17-'18
"CANbus" has nothing to do with the lights themselves. It's just a data network. People just call them "CANbus bulbs" because they don't know any better, and most cars started to get 'smart' enough to detect dead bulbs around the time CANbus networking started to take off.
For what it's worth, older German cars and Volvos could detect dead bulbs using solid state relays. Those cars had almost no computers to speak of.
For what it's worth, older German cars and Volvos could detect dead bulbs using solid state relays. Those cars had almost no computers to speak of.