Non Run Flat - what do you do if...
Team Owner
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 25,583
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The low-speed, sharp-turn, chatter will be gone whether you choose runflat or non-runflat AS3+ tires. The rubber compound is the same in both, and it remains more compliant in cool/cold temps.
Last edited by Foosh; Feb 22, 2019 at 05:39 PM.
Thread Starter
Le Mans Master
Joined: Feb 2005
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From: Any City USA
Team Owner
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 25,583
Likes: 16,942
If the OEM PSS are still chattering on a warm FL day, then you're not driving hard or far enough to get them hot. Once they get hot, they don't chatter, and remember they are summer max performance tires. It's not a RF issue, it's a tire compound issue.
It's also not a function of mileage on the tires, it's all about getting them hot enough every time you drive, and they are designed for max grip on hot summer days.
I've daily driven my C7s 35 miles each way to work in DC for 3 years now. I park in a tight underground garage in DC. When the temp is above 70ºF, by the time I get to work, I get no chatter on the PSS making tight turns. When it's below 50ºF, they chatter like hell.
After the same trip on the AS3+, I get no chatter in that tight garage regardless of temp.
It's also not a function of mileage on the tires, it's all about getting them hot enough every time you drive, and they are designed for max grip on hot summer days.
I've daily driven my C7s 35 miles each way to work in DC for 3 years now. I park in a tight underground garage in DC. When the temp is above 70ºF, by the time I get to work, I get no chatter on the PSS making tight turns. When it's below 50ºF, they chatter like hell.
After the same trip on the AS3+, I get no chatter in that tight garage regardless of temp.
Last edited by Foosh; Feb 22, 2019 at 06:05 PM.
Race Director
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 17,982
Likes: 1,074
From: Lansing MI
Since I didn't mention it earlier. I estimate the chance of fixing a tire with "slime" at zero.
In fact, I regard that as a scam product like the old "slick 50" type oil additives.
The bottom line is you will never have a hole small enough where "slime" will plug it. Anything that small wont be able to puncture the tire.
Plan on using an actual plug, or plan on keeping your cell phone charged.
If someone insists on relying on "slime" then whatever punctures the tire, don't pull it out. Leave it and then put the slime in, and reflate the tire.
In fact, I regard that as a scam product like the old "slick 50" type oil additives.
The bottom line is you will never have a hole small enough where "slime" will plug it. Anything that small wont be able to puncture the tire.
Plan on using an actual plug, or plan on keeping your cell phone charged.
If someone insists on relying on "slime" then whatever punctures the tire, don't pull it out. Leave it and then put the slime in, and reflate the tire.
Last edited by PatternDayTrader; Feb 22, 2019 at 06:37 PM.
Tech Contributor
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 41,063
Likes: 9,825
From: Charlotte, NC (formerly Endicott, NY)
It isn't a mounting problem. It is a bead sealing problem that some shops have due to inadequate equipment. My dealership replaced the both rear Cup2 tires on my car The Corvette mechanic got the tires mounted but couldn't get the beads to seal. After monkeying around with them for a couple of hours the dealership sent them down the road to a Truck Motorsports shop that had the equipment to get the beads to pop in place. Sometimes the shop that is having problems has to think outside the box to resolve a problem.
As for the run flat part of the Michelin tire they have a side wall stiffener in the inside side wall. At Spring Mountain they have a cut away section of the tires. The outside tire wall is identical to the non run flat side wall while the inside of the tire has a stiffener that supports the car when the air is gone. The result is a run flat tire that performs as well or better than a non run flat tire. The only down side is the extra cost and on a tire for tire basis the cost difference is about 8%. So if you are purchasing grocery getter tires $200 may reflect the cost of more than one tire but in performance tires it is not such a bid deal.
Bill
As for the run flat part of the Michelin tire they have a side wall stiffener in the inside side wall. At Spring Mountain they have a cut away section of the tires. The outside tire wall is identical to the non run flat side wall while the inside of the tire has a stiffener that supports the car when the air is gone. The result is a run flat tire that performs as well or better than a non run flat tire. The only down side is the extra cost and on a tire for tire basis the cost difference is about 8%. So if you are purchasing grocery getter tires $200 may reflect the cost of more than one tire but in performance tires it is not such a bid deal.
Bill
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Michael S. Palmer
Team Owner
Joined: Oct 2004
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Just checked at Tire Rack (link below). The price of the AS3+ ZP today is $1158 for a set of four (OEM Z51 sizes), and $966 for non-ZP. Sorry, I was wrong, the difference in price for a set of 4 is $192, not $200.
Tire Rack AS3+ Z51 Prices
No, they are not available as a non-ZP in GS/Z06/ZR1 sizes, only in Z51 sizes. Wide-body sizes are only available as ZPs.
Tire Rack AS3+ Z51 Prices
No, they are not available as a non-ZP in GS/Z06/ZR1 sizes, only in Z51 sizes. Wide-body sizes are only available as ZPs.
Last edited by Foosh; Feb 22, 2019 at 07:18 PM.
Pro
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 519
Likes: 128
If the OEM PSS are still chattering on a warm FL day, then you're not driving hard or far enough to get them hot. Once they get hot, they don't chatter, and remember they are summer max performance tires. It's not a RF issue, it's a tire compound issue.
It's also not a function of mileage on the tires, it's all about getting them hot enough every time you drive, and they are designed for max grip on hot summer days.
I've daily driven my C7s 35 miles each way to work in DC for 3 years now. I park in a tight underground garage in DC. When the temp is above 70ºF, by the time I get to work, I get no chatter on the PSS making tight turns. When it's below 50ºF, they chatter like hell.
After the same trip on the AS3+, I get no chatter in that tight garage regardless of temp.
It's also not a function of mileage on the tires, it's all about getting them hot enough every time you drive, and they are designed for max grip on hot summer days.
I've daily driven my C7s 35 miles each way to work in DC for 3 years now. I park in a tight underground garage in DC. When the temp is above 70ºF, by the time I get to work, I get no chatter on the PSS making tight turns. When it's below 50ºF, they chatter like hell.
After the same trip on the AS3+, I get no chatter in that tight garage regardless of temp.
Team Owner
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 25,583
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I'd say they are about equal in that range with an edge in favor of the AS3+. The PSS falls off noticeably below 60ºF, and they're only better when it gets really hot and you're pressing REALLY hard, or if you're going to do occasional track sessions.
In my view, 99% would be hard pressed to find an advantage for the PSS in purely street use. Another advantage of the AS3+ is they are not rock slingers like the PSS is.
In my view, 99% would be hard pressed to find an advantage for the PSS in purely street use. Another advantage of the AS3+ is they are not rock slingers like the PSS is.
Last edited by Foosh; Feb 22, 2019 at 07:21 PM.
Drifting
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,388
Likes: 233
From: Palmer Township PA
Non-ZP PS AS3+ tires are available in narrow-body (C7 base and Z51) sizes. I have them. Non-ZPs are not produced in wide-body (GS/Z06/ZR1) sizes. The basis for my comparison is running PSS ZPs in the summer and AS3+ non-ZPs in the winter. The ride quality and noise is the same in all but cold temps.
I prefer the ZPs, but they were not available when I purchased the AS3+ more than 2 years ago. When it's time to replace them, I'm going ZP.
I think there are some flawed comparisons being made here having to do with cold vs hot weather. If you compare the PSS RF to any all season tire, ZP or not, in cold weather, the all season tire is going to have a softer ride. That's because summer max performance tires get rock hard in cold weather. Non runflat PSS tires are also going to be rock hard in cold weather.
It has nothing to do with runflat technology. It's differences in temperature and the affect of temp on the different rubber compounds.
In driving them back-to-back in temps above 60ºF or so, ride quality is the same. If you drive an AS3+ runflat and the same tire as a non-runflat back-to-back at the same temp, you won't be able to tell the difference. The same is true of RF and NRF PSS tires in hot weather.
I prefer the ZPs, but they were not available when I purchased the AS3+ more than 2 years ago. When it's time to replace them, I'm going ZP.
I think there are some flawed comparisons being made here having to do with cold vs hot weather. If you compare the PSS RF to any all season tire, ZP or not, in cold weather, the all season tire is going to have a softer ride. That's because summer max performance tires get rock hard in cold weather. Non runflat PSS tires are also going to be rock hard in cold weather.
It has nothing to do with runflat technology. It's differences in temperature and the affect of temp on the different rubber compounds.
In driving them back-to-back in temps above 60ºF or so, ride quality is the same. If you drive an AS3+ runflat and the same tire as a non-runflat back-to-back at the same temp, you won't be able to tell the difference. The same is true of RF and NRF PSS tires in hot weather.
Team Owner
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 26,254
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From: Chirper Island
I would never go to non-RFs again. I have had them, and frankly, they didn't ride any differently.
And when the **** hits the fan, it really spreads far and wide:
This pic is after driving over 30 miles with a two-inch portion of the bead missing.
It probably wouldn't have lasted 30 seconds on a non-RF before disaster, and the rim would have been ruined, as well. I can't even imagine the damage just getting pulled up and off of the flat-bed as well. The car scrapes with fully-inflated tires; a flat/tire would not be pretty, being three inches lower .
Racer
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 395
Likes: 194
From: Goderich, ON
The roads I drive toy cars on are such a low risk for road hazard that I remove the spare and jack for more cargo space and less weight to drag around.
The C7 doesn't need tires just yet, but I already decided that replacements were going to be non-ZP. Until I read this thread. Definitely going with ZP. Thanks for info.
The C7 doesn't need tires just yet, but I already decided that replacements were going to be non-ZP. Until I read this thread. Definitely going with ZP. Thanks for info.
E-Ray, 3LZ, ZER, LIFT
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 35,045
Likes: 12,411
From: NE South Carolina
It isn't a mounting problem. It is a bead sealing problem that some shops have due to inadequate equipment. My dealership replaced the both rear Cup2 tires on my car The Corvette mechanic got the tires mounted but couldn't get the beads to seal. After monkeying around with them for a couple of hours the dealership sent them down the road to a Truck Motorsports shop that had the equipment to get the beads to pop in place. .....
Bill
Bill
The large Chevy, BMW, Mercedes Dealer it town won’t even try to change wide run flats (or probably wide low profile tires in general.) They send them to where I have gone for all flat repairs/new tire mounting from recommendation of other Vette owner’s, a 12 bay Firestone dealer. Of their ~20 techs only 2 or 3 are allowed to do wide low profile tires as the shop doesn’t want damaged rims either!My usual MO with any repair/service is to stand outside the open shop bay door and chat with the tech. Although they have several tire mounting machines the one for wide tires is located near the large air compressor and has a large ID airline not one dropped from the pipeline that goes through the shop. Even with a touch-less tire machine it’s not that easy to get the tire off and on. Then it takes a lot of air volume and special treatment to get the bead to seal.
When getting new tires the tech apologized for it taking so long. Told him to take all the time needed and there would be a tip for a good job. It takes more than the right equipment to mount wide low profile tires. The few that do it at that shop also get the experiance and do sufficient to learn the tricks needed.
Last edited by JerryU; Feb 23, 2019 at 07:44 AM.
Racer
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 251
Likes: 83
From: So Cal
Just in case someone reads this thread in the future, to help them decide which version tire to purchase, I'm with
Foosh, 100%. And I've ridden in C7's with run flat AS3+ tires, and with the non run flat version. Run flat technology has provided us with a great tire for our C7, with all around performance equal to non run flats, or very very nearly equal.
Before buying non run flats try letting the air out of one of your tires, then plugging that tire, or even sliming it (which often fails), and pumping the tire back to correct air pressure, then imagine trying to do that in the worst of places, perhaps at night, or a really cold day or night, with cars and trucks buzzing past your legs. Flat tires often happen at the worst of times/places, not in our garages.
I've no choice personally as my wife likes to drive our C7, manual, convertible, for drives with her girlfriends, and she is not going to be fixing any flats on the side of the road.
And I hate the thought of someone saying "Yah, he saved a thousand bucks by buying non run flat tires, but he got run over by a truck while fixing a flat tire on the side of the road.
Foosh, 100%. And I've ridden in C7's with run flat AS3+ tires, and with the non run flat version. Run flat technology has provided us with a great tire for our C7, with all around performance equal to non run flats, or very very nearly equal.
Before buying non run flats try letting the air out of one of your tires, then plugging that tire, or even sliming it (which often fails), and pumping the tire back to correct air pressure, then imagine trying to do that in the worst of places, perhaps at night, or a really cold day or night, with cars and trucks buzzing past your legs. Flat tires often happen at the worst of times/places, not in our garages.
I've no choice personally as my wife likes to drive our C7, manual, convertible, for drives with her girlfriends, and she is not going to be fixing any flats on the side of the road.
And I hate the thought of someone saying "Yah, he saved a thousand bucks by buying non run flat tires, but he got run over by a truck while fixing a flat tire on the side of the road.
Team Owner
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 24,697
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From: Raleigh
I’ve been in EMS for well over 30 years. Still working the street full time. The most dangerous call we work these days is a interstate or limited access highway call. We send two fire trucks with each ambulance along with highway safety patrol and two troopers just for a medical emergency stopped on the side of the interstate. Why ? Because today’s self absorbed idiot drivers keep hitting us even with all the big red trucks, flashing lights, traffic cones and flares.
I once had to pick up the unidentifiable remains of a police officer who simply stopped to help a lady at a minor accident on the interstate. The woman was also killed. Cut in half by the drunk driver that plowed thru the scene.
I could go on but hopefully you get the point. When I did have my C5 z06 with the inflator kit and I lost air pressure after running over a nail I chose to run it on the bead and rim to the next exit destroying my wheel. But there is no way on Gods earth I was going to work on the car by myself on the interstate.
I get that life is a risk but the price gap and performance and ride gap isn’t worth it to me. But everyone has their own risk threshold I guess.
I once had to pick up the unidentifiable remains of a police officer who simply stopped to help a lady at a minor accident on the interstate. The woman was also killed. Cut in half by the drunk driver that plowed thru the scene.
I could go on but hopefully you get the point. When I did have my C5 z06 with the inflator kit and I lost air pressure after running over a nail I chose to run it on the bead and rim to the next exit destroying my wheel. But there is no way on Gods earth I was going to work on the car by myself on the interstate.
I get that life is a risk but the price gap and performance and ride gap isn’t worth it to me. But everyone has their own risk threshold I guess.
