DCT in a Vette.
10-03-2013, 01:58 AM
#41
In the above photo, the arrow is pointing the fluid fill/fluid level hole.
In this photo, you can see the black plug which is the fluid fill/fluid level plug where you fill the transmission (with engine running/warmed up) until fluid just trickles out of the hole...this gives you an idea of where the fluid level is in relationship to the internal parts of the transmission.
This shows the upper/lower valve bodies assembled in the transmission so you can see there isn't much room for fluid to go.
This shows a Corvette 6L80 fully assembled so you can see the total height of the fluid level.
And finally a cutaway showing how close to the bottom of the pan the filter/strainer is as well as the relationship of all of the internal parts.
As you can see from the pictures above, it is impossible for a properly filled 6L80 to experience oil starvation in a high g cornering situation even when equipped with a wing and race tires...there is simply no place for the fluid to go. Of course I knew this before I asked for a link to Tadge making the statement you attributed to him and therefore knew the link didn't exist. In other words, I knew you were making it up...often referred to as full of BS. I would hope in future discussions you would refrain from this type of activity to add a high level of veracity to your posts.
PS You are correct, the smiley you want is no longer there...I checked and the "embarrassed" emoticon is gone.
Last edited by glass slipper; 10-03-2013 at 02:00 AM.
10-03-2013, 02:57 AM
#42
Yes, the DCT is heavier and more complicated than a sequential, but it must be faster. A sequential needs to release the clutch, shift, then engage the clutch. A DCT needs only to release one clutch and engage another. And those two actions can be overlapped to some extent as well. That Zeroshift video looks pretty sweet though, maybe it could match a DCT; yet for all its simplicity I've never seen one in a mass produced car.
Reviews of DCT's compared to various single clutch methods seem to support the above statement as well. I've seen mixed reviews of the LFA's transmission, generally disappointing reviews of the Lambo and initial Audi R8 transmission, yet extremely favorable reviews of the new R8's DCT, the GT-R's DCT, the M3's DCT, and of course Porsche's PDK. Even the new MB DCT in the SLS has been reviewed very favorably.
From a customer's perspective and the above reviews, it seems like the DCT is the way to go for the best performing shifts (maybe not the most engaging, but most people seem to appreciate a smooth, fast shift more than a jerky one). Clearly it also has drawbacks (like more complexity, overall weight, and weight distribution), but those are "engineering problems" not really noticed by the end user.
Now, the traditional torque converter automatic also has multiple clutches (more than two even), and can shift by releasing and engaging clutches without waiting for a mechanical "shift" of the gears, so it seems that with the proper technology a TC auto could perform very similarly to a DCT, but with greater smoothness at low speeds due to the TC. Plus, with a TC that could lock more frequently, it might have a feel that more closely matches a traditional clutch type transmission when the situation warrants. You might be able to have the best of both worlds. From some reviews it sounds like the Jaguar 8 speed is pretty close in performance to a Porsche PDK, so maybe a new GM transmission would be similar.
I have no specific love for a DCT (I prefer the three pedal layout), and I also understand why GM might not want to tackle the engineering effort required to get one in the Vette. I strongly suspect that they would prefer to get a high performance TC auto in place, rather than investing in a high performance DCT. Still, from an owner's perspective it might be difficult to show parity with the Porsche's, BMW's, and Audi's without a DCT.
I certainly don't expect to see a DCT in the C7. The patent that's been floating around is a continuation of a much older one (2009 I belive) and does not necessarily look like it's geared (pun definitely intended) toward a Vette transmission. I'd guess it would be more like something for a Cruz.
-T
Reviews of DCT's compared to various single clutch methods seem to support the above statement as well. I've seen mixed reviews of the LFA's transmission, generally disappointing reviews of the Lambo and initial Audi R8 transmission, yet extremely favorable reviews of the new R8's DCT, the GT-R's DCT, the M3's DCT, and of course Porsche's PDK. Even the new MB DCT in the SLS has been reviewed very favorably.
From a customer's perspective and the above reviews, it seems like the DCT is the way to go for the best performing shifts (maybe not the most engaging, but most people seem to appreciate a smooth, fast shift more than a jerky one). Clearly it also has drawbacks (like more complexity, overall weight, and weight distribution), but those are "engineering problems" not really noticed by the end user.
Now, the traditional torque converter automatic also has multiple clutches (more than two even), and can shift by releasing and engaging clutches without waiting for a mechanical "shift" of the gears, so it seems that with the proper technology a TC auto could perform very similarly to a DCT, but with greater smoothness at low speeds due to the TC. Plus, with a TC that could lock more frequently, it might have a feel that more closely matches a traditional clutch type transmission when the situation warrants. You might be able to have the best of both worlds. From some reviews it sounds like the Jaguar 8 speed is pretty close in performance to a Porsche PDK, so maybe a new GM transmission would be similar.
I have no specific love for a DCT (I prefer the three pedal layout), and I also understand why GM might not want to tackle the engineering effort required to get one in the Vette. I strongly suspect that they would prefer to get a high performance TC auto in place, rather than investing in a high performance DCT. Still, from an owner's perspective it might be difficult to show parity with the Porsche's, BMW's, and Audi's without a DCT.
I certainly don't expect to see a DCT in the C7. The patent that's been floating around is a continuation of a much older one (2009 I belive) and does not necessarily look like it's geared (pun definitely intended) toward a Vette transmission. I'd guess it would be more like something for a Cruz.
-T
10-03-2013, 09:01 AM
#43
Safety Car
Thread Starter
This shows the upper/lower valve bodies assembled in the transmission so you can see there isn't much room for fluid to go.
As you can see from the pictures above, it is impossible for a properly filled 6L80 to experience oil starvation in a high g cornering Of course I knew this before I asked for a link to Tadge making the statement you attributed to him and therefore knew the link didn't exist. In other words, I knew you were making it up...often referred to as full of BS. I would hope in future discussions you would refrain from this type of activity to add a high level of veracity to your posts.
PS You are correct, the smiley you want is no longer there...I checked and the "embarrassed" emoticon is gone.
As you can see from the pictures above, it is impossible for a properly filled 6L80 to experience oil starvation in a high g cornering Of course I knew this before I asked for a link to Tadge making the statement you attributed to him and therefore knew the link didn't exist. In other words, I knew you were making it up...often referred to as full of BS. I would hope in future discussions you would refrain from this type of activity to add a high level of veracity to your posts.
PS You are correct, the smiley you want is no longer there...I checked and the "embarrassed" emoticon is gone.
10-03-2013, 09:07 AM
#44
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Didn´t know the C6 was linkage operated!
Thanks for the info.
About the sequential not being as fast as a DCT, I´m not so sure one would feel the difference. A swquential can easily be upshifted clutch less, either through rapidly dipping out of the throttle or ignition cut.
Ever ridden crotch rockets before?
Imagine that in a car. The sex.
Thanks for the info.
About the sequential not being as fast as a DCT, I´m not so sure one would feel the difference. A swquential can easily be upshifted clutch less, either through rapidly dipping out of the throttle or ignition cut.
Ever ridden crotch rockets before?
Imagine that in a car. The sex.
10-03-2013, 11:12 AM
#45
Safety Car
Thread Starter
From Anthony @ LGMotorsports
I wanted to take some time for those looking at sequential transmissions and show you what goes inside of a purpose built unit, not just a conversion piece.
This is the same unit we have been running for seasons in GrandAm and very similar to the larger unit featured in our ALMS GT2 Corvette, and the very SAME unit you can buy for your own project.
With over 45 different gear ratios you can custom tailor this box to each track and your car for the ultimate in close ratio gear boxes
These are all built to order and come in almost 20 lbs lighter than the OEM gear box and feature pressurized, filtered oil to all bearings and gears. Straight cut gears with of course replaceable dog rings for engagement.
Assembled main case
Tail shaft removed showing reverse gear
Comparison of the reverse gear to the main gears
Notice how much wider the forward gears are
Shift forks, notice they are gun drilled and feature pressurized oiling passages
Look inside the main case. Notice the large roller bearings and also pressurized spray bar for oiling to the gears
Main gear cluster
Huge main roller bearings for main shaft and counter shaft
Main shafts and shift rail
Gun drilled main shafts, again with pressurized oiling passages
Main shaft support bearings in place
Built in oil pump
Fine micro filter assembly
Oil pick up tube
As you can see it is more than just a face plated, or dog ring gear box T56 that goes into each one of these gear boxes.
While they may not be for everyone, I hope this shows you a bit more info on what goes inside of one of these awesome units! Feel free to hit me with any questions you have!
I wanted to take some time for those looking at sequential transmissions and show you what goes inside of a purpose built unit, not just a conversion piece.
This is the same unit we have been running for seasons in GrandAm and very similar to the larger unit featured in our ALMS GT2 Corvette, and the very SAME unit you can buy for your own project.
With over 45 different gear ratios you can custom tailor this box to each track and your car for the ultimate in close ratio gear boxes
These are all built to order and come in almost 20 lbs lighter than the OEM gear box and feature pressurized, filtered oil to all bearings and gears. Straight cut gears with of course replaceable dog rings for engagement.
Assembled main case
Tail shaft removed showing reverse gear
Comparison of the reverse gear to the main gears
Notice how much wider the forward gears are
Shift forks, notice they are gun drilled and feature pressurized oiling passages
Look inside the main case. Notice the large roller bearings and also pressurized spray bar for oiling to the gears
Main gear cluster
Huge main roller bearings for main shaft and counter shaft
Main shafts and shift rail
Gun drilled main shafts, again with pressurized oiling passages
Main shaft support bearings in place
Built in oil pump
Fine micro filter assembly
Oil pick up tube
As you can see it is more than just a face plated, or dog ring gear box T56 that goes into each one of these gear boxes.
While they may not be for everyone, I hope this shows you a bit more info on what goes inside of one of these awesome units! Feel free to hit me with any questions you have!
10-03-2013, 01:19 PM
#46
Describe how do you check the oil level? With all that research I wonder why you did not include a search in the Road Race section and talk the the boys who race with these transmissions. Shirley that's not too difficult? You can't make statements about Tadge on this forum that aren't true because some member will point it out or post the quote. When you find that your information is termonologically incorrect, I do hope that the appropriate apology will be forth coming.
Yeah, he presents his material in a political manor. Though accurate, it is highly selective and disingenuous. Engineering is all encompassing and you simply can'r be 'dishonest'. Natural law is the truth, and nothing but the truth.
The 6L80 does have oil pick up problems when the car has wings and slicks and there can be slippage in high G turns. Tadge mentioned it but I don't know what has been done on the Z51 to address this. I expect a real cool A8 in the C7 soon. It may first appear in the high performance C7, the one with the big brakes.
The 6L80 does have oil pick up problems when the car has wings and slicks and there can be slippage in high G turns. Tadge mentioned it but I don't know what has been done on the Z51 to address this. I expect a real cool A8 in the C7 soon. It may first appear in the high performance C7, the one with the big brakes.
I am holding you to the same standards (in bold red) you set for everybody else...you simply can't be dishonest. You made the comment in bolded blue above and it was an outright lie...simply admit your lie and apologize.
Last edited by glass slipper; 10-03-2013 at 03:54 PM. Reason: Removable of incorrect info...apologies
10-03-2013, 01:42 PM
#48
Race Director
How about if we all agreed DCT is the worlds best transmission...and move on...
If it was available on corvette I'd order it. I've been driving manuals for over 35 years and if corvette offered this? I'd buy the option.
If not? I'm still buying a new corvette for my next car. Manual 7 speed with rev matching or maybe the new automatic...
My present great car is the ls3 z51 manual.
Next
If it was available on corvette I'd order it. I've been driving manuals for over 35 years and if corvette offered this? I'd buy the option.
If not? I'm still buying a new corvette for my next car. Manual 7 speed with rev matching or maybe the new automatic...
My present great car is the ls3 z51 manual.
Next
10-03-2013, 03:58 PM
#49
10-06-2013, 12:07 AM
#51
its a matter of engineering. saying never is a big thing to say. i think GM is working on 'something'; maybe with tremec or zf but who knows. eventually, a patent number will come out and people will be drooling over it. a DCT compact and strong enough to fit in the confines of the C7 is hardly as crazy as the pushrod 3 or 4 valve engine with 2 in block camshafts..
10-07-2013, 08:59 PM
#55
Safety Car
Thread Starter
I look forward to all the abuse you will take, and all the crow you will eat, for ridiculous statements like the one above.
You and the rest of those that are clueless about DCT are in for a rude awakening.
We can all agree that the TR6070 offers improvements in addition to the durability, simplicity, and proven track record of the T56 and TR6060. But, DCT can, and WILL, offer a serious leap forward for Corvette.
Hopefully, GM will offer a DCT for the Corvette just like the AMG SLS within the C7 life cycle and not make us wait for the C8.
But, DCT is coming, along with public humiliation for the DCT haters.
You and the rest of those that are clueless about DCT are in for a rude awakening.
We can all agree that the TR6070 offers improvements in addition to the durability, simplicity, and proven track record of the T56 and TR6060. But, DCT can, and WILL, offer a serious leap forward for Corvette.
Hopefully, GM will offer a DCT for the Corvette just like the AMG SLS within the C7 life cycle and not make us wait for the C8.
But, DCT is coming, along with public humiliation for the DCT haters.
10-07-2013, 11:59 PM
#56
Le Mans Master
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St. Jude Donor '06-'08-'10-'11-'12-'13 '14-'15-'16-'17-'18-'19
Arrogance and condescending attitudes are a big turnoff for me. I think I will ignore any further posts, by you, concerning DCT trannies.
10-08-2013, 09:40 AM
#57
Drifting
Originally Posted by carlrx7
Gear 14 drives the output shaft; Not co-linear with the the input; methinks it's most likely a DCT for a low-torque FWD application.
.
10-08-2013, 10:18 AM
#58
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10-08-2013, 10:54 AM
#59
I don't think GM would offer a M7, A8 and a DCT option all in the same MY. The average buyer wouldn't know the difference between a DCT and A8. If the DCT was 7 spd, why would an average buyer get a 7DCT spd instead of an 8 spd Auto, when essentially they both are automatics.
This would confuse the average buyer, why would there by 2 different automatics?
Remember that most of us on the forum know the difference but most buyers are clueless and buy only because of status. How many Porche or Rolex buyers really know what they are getting,,, it's 99% status.
DCT will come when the A8 will not be offered....unless the upcoming A8 is really going to be DCT( slim to non chance).
This would confuse the average buyer, why would there by 2 different automatics?
Remember that most of us on the forum know the difference but most buyers are clueless and buy only because of status. How many Porche or Rolex buyers really know what they are getting,,, it's 99% status.
DCT will come when the A8 will not be offered....unless the upcoming A8 is really going to be DCT( slim to non chance).