Headers and Superchargers
Thread Starter
Intermediate
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 42
Likes: 1
From: Chicago IL
Headers and Superchargers
Hi,
I placed my order for a 2015 Stingray Z51 about two weeks ago and I am already starting to decide on my modifications. My prior toy was a Shelby Cobra 427 replica.
I am pretty certain that my ultimate goal will be to install an Edelbrock Eforce Supercharger. My question is would you start with any modifications first. Should I install headers? Seems like most of the power packages from big name shops for go headers on supercharged cars. Is there an issue with too much heat generated by the headers?
I am not interested in a track car, just a fast well mannered street car.
I'd appreciate any suggestion on the best pathway to a 600 + HP well mannered car measured at the crank. No interest in aftermarket camshafts, nitrous, meth injection or centrifugal superchargers.
Thanks
I placed my order for a 2015 Stingray Z51 about two weeks ago and I am already starting to decide on my modifications. My prior toy was a Shelby Cobra 427 replica.
I am pretty certain that my ultimate goal will be to install an Edelbrock Eforce Supercharger. My question is would you start with any modifications first. Should I install headers? Seems like most of the power packages from big name shops for go headers on supercharged cars. Is there an issue with too much heat generated by the headers?
I am not interested in a track car, just a fast well mannered street car.
I'd appreciate any suggestion on the best pathway to a 600 + HP well mannered car measured at the crank. No interest in aftermarket camshafts, nitrous, meth injection or centrifugal superchargers.
Thanks
Melting Slicks
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 2,049
Likes: 702
From: Tulsa, Ok
Evidence I have seen shows headers will get you an extra 20hp to the wheels when combined with forced induction. Save your $2k and just add the FI and you'll get your 600hp at the crank.
Here's a dyno to help you see. Bone stock with Edelbrock E-Force roots blower
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,615
Likes: 60
From: Haymarket Virginia
I did ARH LTs and a procharger.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 2,049
Likes: 702
From: Tulsa, Ok
Thread Starter
Intermediate
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 42
Likes: 1
From: Chicago IL
Thank you for the replies.
I am still trying to determine if headers and the Edelbrock Supercharger are a good combo. Do the headers cause too much heat in the engine bay for the Edelbrock to work efficiently? I wouldn't mind a bit more exhaust note. Would you for go the headers and go with cat back exhaust instead. Something like B&B Fusion?
Chris
I am still trying to determine if headers and the Edelbrock Supercharger are a good combo. Do the headers cause too much heat in the engine bay for the Edelbrock to work efficiently? I wouldn't mind a bit more exhaust note. Would you for go the headers and go with cat back exhaust instead. Something like B&B Fusion?
Chris
Le Mans Master
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 5,169
Likes: 199
From: Your Sister's Bedroom
I would be more concerned about the heat generated by the E-Force than the headers. The screw type blowers in the tight packages required for the corvette platform generate high intake air temps and that robs you of horsepower. This is why if you compare power generated by a Centrifugal supercharger vs a screw blower at the same KPA, the centrifugal blower will make more power. Entry level centrifugal blower have less drag on the engine as well than a screw type unit.
Just food for thought before you pull the trigger on that eforce unit.
Less power to operate equals more power at the wheels
Cooler air intake temps equal more power at the wheels
Expandability, The entry level ECS Centrifugal blower kit that sells for right around $5K has already proven to make nearly 900whp on boost only by big shops such as Vengeance Racing.
The only advantage to a screw blower is the off idle torque curve. But in most cases that isn't really and advantage unless you have the tires to stick it.
Definitly get headers though regardless...
Just food for thought before you pull the trigger on that eforce unit.
Less power to operate equals more power at the wheels
Cooler air intake temps equal more power at the wheels
Expandability, The entry level ECS Centrifugal blower kit that sells for right around $5K has already proven to make nearly 900whp on boost only by big shops such as Vengeance Racing.
The only advantage to a screw blower is the off idle torque curve. But in most cases that isn't really and advantage unless you have the tires to stick it.
Definitly get headers though regardless...
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,615
Likes: 60
From: Haymarket Virginia
I would be more concerned about the heat generated by the E-Force than the headers. The screw type blowers in the tight packages required for the corvette platform generate high intake air temps and that robs you of horsepower. This is why if you compare power generated by a Centrifugal supercharger vs a screw blower at the same KPA, the centrifugal blower will make more power. Entry level centrifugal blower have less drag on the engine as well than a screw type unit.
Just food for thought before you pull the trigger on that eforce unit.
Less power to operate equals more power at the wheels
Cooler air intake temps equal more power at the wheels
Expandability, The entry level ECS Centrifugal blower kit that sells for right around $5K has already proven to make nearly 900whp on boost only by big shops such as Vengeance Racing.
The only advantage to a screw blower is the off idle torque curve. But in most cases that isn't really and advantage unless you have the tires to stick it.
Definitly get headers though regardless...
Just food for thought before you pull the trigger on that eforce unit.
Less power to operate equals more power at the wheels
Cooler air intake temps equal more power at the wheels
Expandability, The entry level ECS Centrifugal blower kit that sells for right around $5K has already proven to make nearly 900whp on boost only by big shops such as Vengeance Racing.
The only advantage to a screw blower is the off idle torque curve. But in most cases that isn't really and advantage unless you have the tires to stick it.
Definitly get headers though regardless...
This car can hardly keep the power to the ground in stock form.
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Le Mans Master
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 5,169
Likes: 199
From: Your Sister's Bedroom
Ummm... No....
You will see a drop in boost because the engine is breathing better and running more efficiently. You will gain power by the addition of headers although your peak KPA may decrease.
By adding a smaller pulley you will just increase cylinder pressure making even more power. There is nothing to "make up" for.
Example.. Car makes 915whp with 1.75" primaries @ 20psi, Headers are swapped out for 2" primaries and the car now makes 960whp but boost drops to 17psi because the engine can breathe better.
Putting on a smaller pulley doesn't "make up" for anything, it just brings you back to a specific number (KPA/PSI) and is going to make far more power now because you have a more efficient engine at your previous peak KPA/PSI.
Last edited by breecher_7; Dec 2, 2014 at 12:20 PM.
Platinum Supporting Dealership
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 722
Likes: 336
From: Rochester New York
Ummm... No....
You will see a drop in boost because the engine is breathing better and running more efficiently. You will gain power by the addition of headers although your peak KPA may decrease.
By adding a smaller pulley you will just increase cylinder pressure making even more power. There is nothing to "make up" for.
Example.. Car makes 915whp with 1.75" primaries @ 20psi, Headers are swapped out for 2" primaries and the car now makes 960whp but boost drops to 17psi because the engine can breathe better.
Putting on a smaller pulley doesn't "make up" for anything, it just brings you back to a specific number (KPA/PSI) and is going to make far more power now because you have a more efficient engine at your previous peak KPA/PSI.
You will see a drop in boost because the engine is breathing better and running more efficiently. You will gain power by the addition of headers although your peak KPA may decrease.
By adding a smaller pulley you will just increase cylinder pressure making even more power. There is nothing to "make up" for.
Example.. Car makes 915whp with 1.75" primaries @ 20psi, Headers are swapped out for 2" primaries and the car now makes 960whp but boost drops to 17psi because the engine can breathe better.
Putting on a smaller pulley doesn't "make up" for anything, it just brings you back to a specific number (KPA/PSI) and is going to make far more power now because you have a more efficient engine at your previous peak KPA/PSI.
Yes, boost will drop because of the headers, which I implied.
If a kit is advertised to produce a maximum boost of 7psi, yet one only sees 5psi (due to the headers) a smaller pulley will make up for the loss in advertised boost.
Premium Supporting Vendor
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 1,984
Likes: 19
From: Texas Speed TX
Don't forget the ECS supercharger kits. People have been making great power with them & we know combined with the TSP headers you'd have a combination for huge power right about $6k!!
http://www.texas-speed.com/p-4408-te...ad-x-pipe.aspx
http://www.texas-speed.com/p-4408-te...ad-x-pipe.aspx
Drifting
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 1,906
Likes: 51
From: Tampa Florida
I skipped the headers and did an ECS kit with meth injection. Just about every shop I talked to said the gains were very minimal with headers. The gain with headers with a sc were minimal, for $2k +. Meth injection will give just as much power as headers plus added benefits that headers will not give.
I'm planning on doing a cam here shortly and will then put headers on when I do.
I'm planning on doing a cam here shortly and will then put headers on when I do.
Premium Supporting Vendor
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,779
Likes: 129
From: Amityville ny 631-608-1986
I skipped the headers and did an ECS kit with meth injection. Just about every shop I talked to said the gains were very minimal with headers. The gain with headers with a sc were minimal, for $2k +. Meth injection will give just as much power as headers plus added benefits that headers will not give.
I'm planning on doing a cam here shortly and will then put headers on when I do.
I'm planning on doing a cam here shortly and will then put headers on when I do.
With ARH headers, there's also no underhood temperature issues to be concerned about. What's important to realize is that the HP and torque gains are just a byproduct of significantly increased engine efficiency. Why anyone would want to leave that off the table is baffling to me. Even if you don't upgrade to headers right away, you should consider taking full advantage of what they provide to a supercharged package. I'll go even further and say that if a cam is installed, headers become a requirement you can't avoid. You could be down up to 50rwhp without a proper header system.
Nick
A.R. Headers
Advanced
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 97
Likes: 3
I'm thinking about doing the Edelbrock E-Force as well - don't think I'm interested in a centri.
I went with ARH midlengths for various reasons but wasn't really thinking about FI in the future. I know LTs would probably be better, but would the midlengths work ok with the e-force? Or would I be leaving a bunch of power and sound on the table?
I went with ARH midlengths for various reasons but wasn't really thinking about FI in the future. I know LTs would probably be better, but would the midlengths work ok with the e-force? Or would I be leaving a bunch of power and sound on the table?
Le Mans Master
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 7,052
Likes: 945
From: DFW TX
Platinum Supporting Dealership
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 722
Likes: 336
From: Rochester New York
With all due respect, any company that states headers produce minimal power with a supercharger are completely wrong or they installed the wrong size headers for what the application calls for. There's absolutely no disadvantage to adding headers to a supercharged car I assure you.
With ARH headers, there's also no underhood temperature issues to be concerned about. What's important to realize is that the HP and torque gains are just a byproduct of significantly increased engine efficiency. Why anyone would want to leave that off the table is baffling to me. Even if you don't upgrade to headers right away, you should consider taking full advantage of what they provide to a supercharged package. I'll go even further and say that if a cam is installed, headers become a requirement you can't avoid. You could be down up to 50rwhp without a proper header system.
Nick
A.R. Headers
With ARH headers, there's also no underhood temperature issues to be concerned about. What's important to realize is that the HP and torque gains are just a byproduct of significantly increased engine efficiency. Why anyone would want to leave that off the table is baffling to me. Even if you don't upgrade to headers right away, you should consider taking full advantage of what they provide to a supercharged package. I'll go even further and say that if a cam is installed, headers become a requirement you can't avoid. You could be down up to 50rwhp without a proper header system.
Nick
A.R. Headers
Not to mention the benefit of a little added pre-detination safety and cooler cylinder temps.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 2,049
Likes: 702
From: Tulsa, Ok
It’s true that LT’s are more efficient at moving a high volume of air out and has better dynamics of drawing more spent gases but I think the points mentioned above point to the fact that the OEM manifold is fairly generous in this department. Yes, not as good as LT’s but it’s a bang for the buck question. I tend to look at dollar per HP gains and this equation all depends on your particular mods and future desires. Speed cost money – how fast do you want to go?
Drifting
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 1,906
Likes: 51
From: Tampa Florida
With all due respect, any company that states headers produce minimal power with a supercharger are completely wrong or they installed the wrong size headers for what the application calls for. There's absolutely no disadvantage to adding headers to a supercharged car I assure you.
With ARH headers, there's also no underhood temperature issues to be concerned about. What's important to realize is that the HP and torque gains are just a byproduct of significantly increased engine efficiency. Why anyone would want to leave that off the table is baffling to me. Even if you don't upgrade to headers right away, you should consider taking full advantage of what they provide to a supercharged package. I'll go even further and say that if a cam is installed, headers become a requirement you can't avoid. You could be down up to 50rwhp without a proper header system.
Nick
A.R. Headers
With ARH headers, there's also no underhood temperature issues to be concerned about. What's important to realize is that the HP and torque gains are just a byproduct of significantly increased engine efficiency. Why anyone would want to leave that off the table is baffling to me. Even if you don't upgrade to headers right away, you should consider taking full advantage of what they provide to a supercharged package. I'll go even further and say that if a cam is installed, headers become a requirement you can't avoid. You could be down up to 50rwhp without a proper header system.
Nick
A.R. Headers
When I do go the cam/headers route I will be installing AR headers.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,615
Likes: 60
From: Haymarket Virginia
I was not stating there is any disadvantage to adding headers to a blown car. What I was stating the "bang for the buck" cost vs. gains. I was told by very reputable shops/manufacturers that the GM headers are designed fairly well. I was told by adding headers to my sc'd car it would give me roughly 20hp. For $2500 installed that's not something I personally see worth it for myself without a cam installed. To some it may be, and to each is own.
When I do go the cam/headers route I will be installing AR headers.
When I do go the cam/headers route I will be installing AR headers.
For majority of the people out there with a SC kit, the car will never see the track. The tires can hardly handle 400rwhp on the streets let alone 580rwhp.
I get to "enjoy" my ARH LT's everytime I drive the car, whether idling or full throttle. Can't say that about Meth.
For those that don't think it's worth it, take a listen to a stock car vs a LT car, let me know if your panties get wet.
