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I'd be interested in your testing the carbotechs and see what results you get. They seem heavily corvette taxed to me, but if someone can show that you get what you pay for, I'd be happy for them.
I'd be interested in your testing the carbotechs and see what results you get. They seem heavily corvette taxed to me, but if someone can show that you get what you pay for, I'd be happy for them.
Are they more expensive for a Corvette than anything else?
Are you Speaking from Experience? I Have used them in the past and the Track Day pads as well with no issues.
Originally Posted by djnice
I know what you mean. They have no bite. It is a known fact they don't stop as well as stock or track pads. They are only good for reducing dust and that is the only reason I tried them for daily driving, but now I am happy to go back to cleaning dust and having brakes that stop.
Are you Speaking from Experience? I Have used them in the past and the Track Day pads as well with no issues.
Yes, but I am not the only one saying Z26 has less stopping power. There is no issue with them they just have less stopping power as advertised.
Originally Posted by village idiot
I feel like they're not gripping at all- like the pad is rock solid and doesn't have any friction with the rotor.
Exactly. However, getting all the old compound off the rotor could be part of our issue. Which I hate dealing with. Rather find a setup like carbotech where I can go from a very solid track pad to a street pad and not have to clean compound. I have a set of no-name street/track pads from a local race shop that I will try next.
[QUOTE=djnice;1597836529]Yes, but I am not the only one saying Z26 has less stopping power. There is no issue with them they just have less stopping power as advertised.
Dose anyone have real numbers in comparison???? 100 or 60 to 0 in how many feet. Stock verses Z26! That tells it all.
I have not seen an advertisement or anything else that states Z26's have less stopping power. I am not saying that the information does not exist, but I personally have not seen it and would like to see the source of that information. The only thing I have seen is PS claim see below. Can anyone help here?
Thanks
Frank
Last edited by Frank_Nesta; 08-21-2018 at 08:19 PM.
Reason: Added PS Advertisement
It is not just braking distance, but you also have to factor pedal pressure because both pads can cause the tires to skid and ABS to engage. So the one that does it with less pedal pressure should have a higher torque or friction. When people say they notice no difference in stopping distance, what are they saying? Of course there is no difference.
Are they more expensive for a Corvette than anything else?
No, corvette tax is a myth Carbotech does not mark up pads because of the car.. Here is a list of all the same front pads the corvette and other cars also use. .http://ampdautosport.com/product/ct1001-brake-pad/ This Corvette tax thing is a joke.
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Last edited by Adam@Amp'dAutosport.com; 08-21-2018 at 05:45 PM.
It is not just braking distance, but you also have to factor pedal pressure because both pads can cause the tires to skid and ABS to engage. So the one that does it with less pedal pressure should have a higher torque or friction. When people say they notice no difference in stopping distance, what are they saying? Of course there is no difference.
In our individual cars everything is the same except that we have changed the pads. Tires, rotors and even pedal pressure is the same. So the only difference is the pads and their individual coefficients of friction. The only measurable way to judge brake stopping power is braking distance. I am not aware of another measurable way to judge stopping power or in this thread the loss of of brake power. To prove any point you must have something measurable and repeatable parameters. If you have one please explain and help us understand what you are saying.
In theory both pads can lock the tires. So there is no significant difference in braking distance. To compare brakes you have to repeatedly test pedal pressure, braking distance, and fade on the same driving surface. It is an involved process. You may also want to measure pad and rotor wear, wet braking, etc. When people say there is no difference in performance it is all about what they feel because no one is measuring anything. I feel a difference and others don't so we buy the brakes we feel best about.
In theory both pads can lock the tires. So there is no significant difference in braking distance. To compare brakes you have to repeatedly test pedal pressure, braking distance, and fade on the same driving surface. It is an involved process. You may also want to measure pad and rotor wear, wet braking, etc. When people say there is no difference in performance it is all about what they feel because no one is measuring anything. I feel a difference and others don't so we buy the brakes we feel best about.
I agree with almost everything you said especially the last 2 sentences. Enough said.
No, corvette tax is a myth Carbotech does not mark up pads because of the car.. Here is a list of all the same front pads the corvette and other cars also use. .http://ampdautosport.com/product/ct1001-brake-pad/ This Corvette tax thing is a joke.
Ok so they are just extremely expensive. Why are they so much more for street pads? Legitimate question. I know you have a horse in this race so it's going to be hard to appear unbiased, but what materials and construction processes do they use that makes the product worth so much more money? Please make it apples to apples, street pads to street pads.
You have to admit there is a huge price gap and if my brakes don't fade, or do something crazy (let's not bring up the rotor stain rumor) how do I justify more money? Are they made in the USA? That could explain a big price bump but not completely.
In our individual cars everything is the same except that we have changed the pads. Tires, rotors and even pedal pressure is the same. So the only difference is the pads and their individual coefficients of friction. The only measurable way to judge brake stopping power is braking distance. I am not aware of another measurable way to judge stopping power or in this thread the loss of of brake power. To prove any point you must have something measurable and repeatable parameters. If you have one please explain and help us understand what you are saying.
You're basically saying pad material is irrelevant if the system has enough braking power to lock up the wheels. It's true for a "slam on the brakes and measure the distance" test for a magazine or something, but it's definitely not true for actually driving.
Also, I locked up my tires on the highway around 90mph the other day. For some inconceivable reason, someone doing about 60 (in a 70) on a completely open highway felt the need to move over two lanes at once. I was fairly impressed. Not sure Z26 would (or maybe they would, IDK), but you may start to see a difference there. Either way, on the street, 99.99% of stops, pure braking power isn't diminished, but you're gonna have to stand on your brake pedal more.
Originally Posted by spinkick
Ok so they are just extremely expensive. Why are they so much more for street pads? Legitimate question. I know you have a horse in this race so it's going to be hard to appear unbiased, but what materials and construction processes do they use that makes the product worth so much more money? Please make it apples to apples, street pads to street pads.
You have to admit there is a huge price gap and if my brakes don't fade, or do something crazy (let's not bring up the rotor stain rumor) how do I justify more money? Are they made in the USA? That could explain a big price bump but not completely.
The price of any good is what people are willing to pay for it based on value (perceived, actual or both). They could cost less to make - but if they can charge more for it, why wouldn't they.
They make a good pad. I like them. Considering I'll probably go through 1 set every 3 years on the street, is it really worth it to save $100 over 3 years and have to deal with brakes that dont feel as good?
[QUOTE=village idiot;1597842615]You're basically saying pad material is irrelevant if the system has enough braking power to lock up the wheels. It's true for a "slam on the brakes and measure the distance" test for a magazine or something, but it's definitely not true for actually driving.
No. I did not say that at all. I said that " In our individual cars everything is the same except that we have changed the pads". The 3 factors in Brake Stopping Power are Tires, Rotor Size, and last but, not least are the Pads. So the only difference is the pads and their individual coefficients of friction which is derived from the material. So the material and its coefficient of friction of the pads we changed are the only difference and the main difference in Brake Stopping Power. Either good or bad depending in the pad material. That is not irrelevant. The distance you stop a car either locking them up or "actually driving" (your words) is still Brake Stopping Power. If the tires and the rotor size is the same and pads have a better coefficient of friction they will stop better in all circumstances.
I run the Canyons quite frequently and I am very happy with the performance of the Power Stops Z26's. Do I have data? No. It is my personal opinion that the PS Z26 pads are better than the originals pads on my 2017 GS. Let not forget the one extra benefit over the originals is less dust on the wheels. That is a bonus for those of us that who like clean looking wheels. I would venture to say that that is reason enough for some to change to PS Z26 pads.
No. I did not say that at all. I said that " In our individual cars everything is the same except that we have changed the pads". The 3 factors in Brake Stopping Power are Tires, Rotor Size, and last but, not least are the Pads. So the only difference is the pads and their individual coefficients of friction which is derived from the material. So the material and its coefficient of friction of the pads we changed are the only difference and the main difference in Brake Stopping Power. Either good or bad depending in the pad material. That is not irrelevant. The distance you stop a car either locking them up or "actually driving" (your words) is still Brake Stopping Power. If the tires and the rotor size is the same and pads have a better coefficient of friction they will stop better in all circumstances.
I run the Canyons quite frequently and I am very happy with the performance of the Power Stops Z26's. Do I have data? No. It is my personal opinion that the PS Z26 pads are better than the originals pads on my 2017 GS. Let not forget the one extra benefit over the originals is less dust on the wheels. That is a bonus for those of us that who like clean looking wheels. I would venture to say that that is reason enough for some to change to PS Z26 pads.
First off, there are many other factors affecting braking capabilities of a car ranging from heat to aero to weight to suspension to alignment to caliper design and many more factors. You live in a very over simplified theoretical world where dog **** brake pads are just as good as good brake pads because you still have enough power to lock up the brakes. There is a LOT more to braking than being able to mash the brake pedal and engage ABS. That isn't some sort of great equalizer.
First off, there are many other factors affecting braking capabilities of a car ranging from heat to aero to weight to suspension to alignment to caliper design and many more factors. You live in a very over simplified theoretical world where dog **** brake pads are just as good as good brake pads because you still have enough power to lock up the brakes. There is a LOT more to braking than being able to mash the brake pedal and engage ABS. That isn't some sort of great equalizer.
As you say all the other factors affecting braking capabilities of a car ranging from heat to aero to weight to suspension to alignment to caliper design and many more factors are CONSTANT in every car if all you are doing is just changing pads. So how are you measuring all those factors? I have asked this question before and not had a reply as of yet.
I am not theoretical at all. Braking distance is how you measure Brake Stopping Power. You either hit the wall or stop short of the wall. Not hitting the wall is good Brake Stopping Power. That is not just locking up the brakes. You can lock up the brakes and have either shorter or longer stopping distance depending on your selection of brake pads. Since tires and caliper size are the constant on our cars and the pads are the variable. Locking up the brakes with bad pads you hit the wall. Locking up the brakes with good pads, no contact. I guess I am simple. The bottom line is it about stopping distance. Wall or no wall. How else do you measure good pads from bad pads? Please enlighten my simple theoretical world.
You are the theoretical guy by trying to quantify other factors affecting braking capabilities of a car ranging from heat to aero to weight to suspension to alignment to caliper design and many more factors. Our cars are designed and all those factors have been decided for us and are constants on each of our individual cars. These factors are important when you are first designing or building a car for the track. But, how do you know when you have the optimal design? Wall or no wall. I know my simple theoretical world. But, that is where I live.
You're basically saying pad material is irrelevant if the system has enough braking power to lock up the wheels. It's true for a "slam on the brakes and measure the distance" test for a magazine or something, but it's definitely not true for actually driving.
Also, I locked up my tires on the highway around 90mph the other day. For some inconceivable reason, someone doing about 60 (in a 70) on a completely open highway felt the need to move over two lanes at once. I was fairly impressed. Not sure Z26 would (or maybe they would, IDK), but you may start to see a difference there. Either way, on the street, 99.99% of stops, pure braking power isn't diminished, but you're gonna have to stand on your brake pedal more.
The price of any good is what people are willing to pay for it based on value (perceived, actual or both). They could cost less to make - but if they can charge more for it, why wouldn't they.
They make a good pad. I like them. Considering I'll probably go through 1 set every 3 years on the street, is it really worth it to save $100 over 3 years and have to deal with brakes that dont feel as good?
I agree, but the question remains, will they feel better. That would be worth it. I just want to know what makes them different.
Low dust street performance Ceramic Pads will not stop the car as well as the stock pads. Most people who care about brake dust don't push their cars hard enough to get to the point they can tell the difference. Over the off season I tried some Carbotech 1521s in my Essex AP Racing calipers. I had been using the Ferodo 2500 pad on the street but it dusts quite a bit and the wheels are covered with dust within a mile or two of cleaning. After bedding the pads to the rotors a neighbor wanted to go for a ride in a Z06. I think he expected me to do some acceleration runs but I just ran it up through the gears found some curves and demonstrated what the car was made for. There was one point where we were slowing from about 120 to 30 and the pedal got very soft with the car not slowing very well as the pads over heated. It took a lot of pedal pressure to get the car slowed.
08-21-2018, 12:31 PM
