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I'm too lazy to remove shroud, etc. yet again, and install back the stock filter. Anyhow, we'll see "learned" results of '19 Z06 with the BMS filter next Saturday, where I dynoed all my cars.
I'm getting the car aligned, tomorrow. I did not install the adjustable links, but I'll have them with me in case we end up needing them. If the removed washers were enough to hit all the numbers, then I'll have brand new Granatelli adjustable links for sale : )
I also setup the hidden compartment for my phone, using foams that came with the Li-Ion battery (for my other car). This way, it will not move anywhere during track days.
Used the foams as spacer to make the phone fit very snug. This is how I used my phone with my Z51, and it worked great.
You can check out the location of the phone from this tire/fitment test video.
Since the screen is captured by the action cam, it also makes it incredibly easy to sync data and video.
Looking forward to the next track day, as long as conditions are not like this!
This is back in 2015; it was truly an exciting, but a bit too-exhilarating experience : )
All measurements taken with me sitting in the driver's seat, and ~80% fuel.
Before (bone stock, but with upper control arm washers removed; ; camber, caster, toe; all in degrees):
Front
Left: -1.1, 7.6, -0.15
Right -1.5, 7.9, -0.25
Rear
Left: -1.3, -0.8, 0.3
Right: -1.7, -0.3, 0.15
Remarks:
Keep in mind, I pulled the washers out of all upper control arm connections, and replace them with much thinner (1/64") shims. As you can see above, numbers seem to be quite out of whack, which I think (hope) is caused by this.
I remember some with alignment plates commenting on forum threads that once they do set everything, they can easily set the camber for street or track by adding/removing spacers to upper control arms. I have a feeling that doing as such will at least mess with your toe, too since the toe links also move a bit when you move the upper arms.
To my surprise, the rear caster was also out of whack, and also not equal from side to side. I have no idea what the impact to handling is, but they are actually WITHIN SPEC per GM guidelines (here). I don't think moving upper control arms by removing washers would impact caster. so I think that's how my car came from factory.
After
Front
Left: -2.7, 7.8, 0
Right -2.7, 7.9, 0
Rear
Left: -2.0, 0.8, 0.05
Right: -2.0, 0.8, 0.05
Remarks:
I hit all my goals in the rear with no issues, without having to use the adjustable toe link. Granted, the aftermarket toe links eliminate the bushing, as indicated by drag racers regarding stability, but I don't think it is as big of a deal for road course use, and this is just one of the many bushings we have in the suspension.
I was limited by left front in terms of camber. The cam bolt was maxed out on the left side, while it was only half-way at the right. This is a bit disappointing, but it's not too far off from my -3.0 goal. I asked if the subframe seems movable (in case it's not centered), but I was told that it uses centering pins, and as such, it should not have much play, if at all. -2.7 will sap from the potential a wee bit, but hopefully not much. Sigh.
Z07 stock ride height
I've been asked about the ride height of Z06 / Z07. I got my technician take measurements during the alignment with and without me sitting in the car, so here they are.
Methodology:
Measurements were taken from wheel lip as well as the ground. Since GM specs (P and R) are from the ground only, I will only list those, in mm.
FYI, these measurements should be taken with full tank to match GM's numbers. I was not far off, but should've done it at 100% or have compensated for it.
I used OEM spec PSS ZP tires shod on Forgestar wheels. The wheel sizes are identical, but the front offset is 13mm further out (+30mm vs. stock +43mm). I'm not sure if this would cause measurement differences, but wanted to mention.
The measurements were taken before alignment. Camber might have a small impact on ride heights (imagine walking tip-toe or by the side of your feet).
Empty car, 83% fuel.
Front (L/R): 695mm, 695mm
Rear (L/R): 717mm, 720mm
Driver in, 83% fuel (~220 lbs extra weight)
Front (L/R): 690mm, 693mm
Rear (L/R): 711mm, 718mm
OEM Specs from same measurement point (unloaded car, but with 100% fuel)
Looks like the fronts are within spec, yet the rears are a bit lower. What were the ride heights you guys got out of FE6 and FE7 as stock?
I measured it again now (~75% fuel, empty car) in my garage, but with aggressive camber, and it's currently at 705mm fronts, and 715mm (L), 725mm (R) rears.
I will take measurements again next time when I fill the gas, and see where they are with full tank.
My z51 with fe6 suspension is at
(26.25") 666 mm front and (27.75") 705 mm rear. Front is all the way down on bolts, rear is about 1/4 up. i'll raise the car back up 10 mm or so (3/8 inch) for track to get the rear closer to previously measured alignment
For comparison, on fe4 suspension with same bolt position:
25.875" , 657 mm front.
28.375", 721 mm rear.
Last edited by BrunoTheMellow; 01-11-2019 at 07:51 AM.
My z51 with fe6 suspension is at
(26.25") 666 mm front and (27.75") 705 mm rear. Front is all the way down on bolts, rear is about 1/4 up. i'll raise the car back up 10 mm or so (3/8 inch) for track to get the rear closer to previously measured alignment
For comparison, on fe4 suspension with same bolt position:
25.875" , 657 mm front.
28.375", 721 mm rear.
I refilled the tank on my way back from the dyno, and re-measured the heights (no driver):
Front: 701/702 mm
Rear: 720/720 mm
Overall, it looks very nicely balanced left to right. The rear height seems to be lower than what specs call for, but per my search, my heights are consistent with others' numbers.
NOTE: I am not following GM's procedure; I'm not jerking with the suspension, and rather measuring the settled height like everyone else in the forums.
I refilled the tank on my way back from the dyno, and re-measured the heights (no driver):
Front: 701/702 mm
Rear: 720/720 mm
Overall, it looks very nicely balanced left to right. The rear height seems to be lower than what specs call for, but per my search, my heights are consistent with others' numbers.
NOTE: I am not following GM's procedure; I'm not jerking with the suspension, and rather measuring the settled height.
Your rear is definitely lower than the front. Relatively. You should try to keep the rake closer to the stock value of 44 mm front to rear difference.
My car is lower All around but it has a 39 mm diff front to rear to your 18 mm diff. Sure, it may look better but I'd stick to the rake designed by GM for aero reasons.
will it make a difference? Probably not . But for track duty...
Last edited by BrunoTheMellow; 01-13-2019 at 01:55 AM.
Your rear is definitely lower than the front. Relatively. You should try to keep the rake closer to the stock value of 44 mm front to rear difference.
My car is lower All around but it has a 39 mm diff front to rear to your 18 mm diff. Sure, it may look better but I'd stick to the rake designed by GM for aero reasons.
will it make a difference? Probably not . But for track duty...
This is how my car, and apparently many others came from factory; I have not changed the heights at all for any reason. If GM is shipping Z07 cars like this, I'll stick by it. If I see weakness in turn-ins, cooling, etc, we can always revisit this : )
EDIT: These are STD-corrected. I will ask for SAE-corrected numbers from the dyno shop for better comparison.
Saturday Dyno Day!
I finally got the car dynoed, and the results were very good!
Setup: The car is bonestock, except:
Girodisc iron 2-piece (heavier) rotors,
Little bit lighter (Forgestar) wheels with PSS ZP, which are a little bit heavier than Cup 2.
BMS filter.
Odometer: 740 miles.
Learning for the filter: I've installed the BMS filter about 300 miles ago, so the car had time to learn and pull back on timing, if it needed any.
Initial expectations: I see that many Z06s dynoed about 550 whp on dynoes similar to the dynojet setup at Drift-Office in Auburn, WA. BMS claims 30 whp gain with their filters due to leaning out about 5%, and it worked great with my LT1, before. As such, I was expecting about 570 whp (on 4th gear), thinking it would have pulled back some of the gains since I installed the filter.
Numbers:
EDIT: These are STD corrected. I will ask for SAE numbers from the dyno shop for better comparison. In the meantime, I tried to correct it myself.
Per Weather Underground, the conditions were: 29.94 in Hg, 55 degrees F, and 68% humidity. Hoping dyno shop used similar numbers, and per this site:
This makes SAE correction factor of 0.9595751785050564
This makes STD correction factor of 0.9962523783205905
As such, STD --> SAE conversion multiplier is 0.9631848308584599
Below are the dyno graphs of my car, as well as my friends' that have also come along, to give perspective. I will also post my '16 Z51's dyno plots from the same dyno with SAE correction.
Red is 3rd gear, while green is 4th gear pull.
From the same day: Same dyno pulls compared against clarkkent06's Z51, which also has BMS filter, 2nd cat delete, and x-pipe, but we suspect it also had irregular toe at the rear (he installed adjustable toe links the day before; didn't have time for alignment). We got the dyno pulls done same day (today), back to back.
From same day: My friend's ND Miata with bolt-ons. It was 2-3 whp more than he expected, so he was a happy camper, too : )
From a former day: My '16 Z51, stock vs. BMS 4th gear.
From a former day: My '16 Z51, stock vs. BMS 3rd gear.
clarkkent06's Z51 and another friend's ND Miata, which we also got dynoed today.
I have followed this thread with interest. You have clearly done alot of thought and research. I tracked and raced Porsches for decades but retired, and now like to instruct and do a few hot laps for fun. I wanted a DD that I could track, and bought a 2016 Z51, and I have to say that box stock, the car is brilliant for this purpose.
Other than a second set of wheels and track tires, I plan no mods.
However, although the OEM brakes are excellent on the track, I have experienced vibration issues. Some say it is warped rotors, others that it is pad build-up. I get lots of opinions, and sales pitches from vendors of brake upgrades, but I'd really appreciate a knowledgeable independent opinion.
I am currently still on pure OEM brakes. However if you have ideas on upgrades to address this, and still keep the car streetable, I'd appreciate your input
I have followed this thread with interest. You have clearly done alot of thought and research. I tracked and raced Porsches for decades but retired, and now like to instruct and do a few hot laps for fun. I wanted a DD that I could track, and bought a 2016 Z51, and I have to say that box stock, the car is brilliant for this purpose.
Other than a second set of wheels and track tires, I plan no mods.
However, although the OEM brakes are excellent on the track, I have experienced vibration issues. Some say it is warped rotors, others that it is pad build-up. I get lots of opinions, and sales pitches from vendors of brake upgrades, but I'd really appreciate a knowledgeable independent opinion.
I am currently still on pure OEM brakes. However if you have ideas on upgrades to address this, and still keep the car streetable, I'd appreciate your input
Thanks
I swapped to cheap DBA rotors and cant believe how much better the cooling is. Stock z51 rotors are garbage. I was overheating carbotech xp10s before and now I don't expect any problems.
Hopefully you're not on stock pads on track.
Last edited by BrunoTheMellow; 01-13-2019 at 03:22 PM.
I swapped to cheap DBA rotors and cant believe how much better the cooling is. Stock z51 rotors are garbage. I was overheating carbotech xp10s before and now I don't expect any problems.
Hopefully you're not on stock pads on track.
Indeed, there is a lot to be said for the rotors. The pillar vane rotors let air in and out, but that's about it. Directional rotors literally work like a vacuum, and they pass in order of a magnitude more air through. The metallurgy also seems to be different for some reason, and dare I say it, the OEM rotor seems to be a bit 'soft'. Z51 does not come with a true 2-piece design, so I don't think DBA T5000 replacement rotor rings are available for you, though.
To be honest, especially if you have aftermarket wheels, I'd highly recommend switching to Z06 iron brakes: https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...-150-pads.html If you source the parts from cheap online vendors and/or Amazon, you can end up upgrading to much better brakes for not much $$. I'd also recommend either DBA rings or Girodisc. There's also a huge amount of weight saving if you use Girodisc at the rear, and last time I checked, the price was as low as $900 for pair (including the hubs), which is very affordable for a premium set of 2-piece rotors!
If you have to use OEM Z51 wheels, Z06 calipers up front will not clear. As such, you'll have to find a good set of rotors for Z51 brakes : (
Indeed, there is a lot to be said for the rotors. The pillar vane rotors let air in and out, but that's about it. Directional rotors literally work like a vacuum, and they pass in order of a magnitude more air through. The metallurgy also seems to be different for some reason, and dare I say it, the OEM rotor seems to be a bit 'soft'. Z51 does not come with a true 2-piece design, so I don't think DBA T5000 replacement rotor rings are available for you, though.
To be honest, especially if you have aftermarket wheels, I'd highly recommend switching to Z06 iron brakes: https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...-150-pads.html If you source the parts from cheap online vendors and/or Amazon, you can end up upgrading to much better brakes for not much $$. I'd also recommend either DBA rings or Girodisc. There's also a huge amount of weight saving if you use Girodisc at the rear, and last time I checked, the price was as low as $900 for pair (including the hubs), which is very affordable for a premium set of 2-piece rotors!
If you have to use OEM Z51 wheels, Z06 calipers up front will not clear. As such, you'll have to find a good set of rotors for Z51 brakes : (
Hell I didn't even buy the t5000 or 4000 for that matter. Just the cheap 70$ blanks, they aren't directional. Still a massive improvement over stock rotors. I've only tested on the street with carbotech 1521s. These would turn into butter before whole driving hard country roads, now zero fade zero smear. I was smearing the xp10s on track so we'll see if it happens with these next time I'm out.
Can't wait to see your consumable info for the Z06/Z07.
I have only been tracking the Z51 as the Z07 consumable costs makes my butt hurt too much.
Your posts and threads rock by the way! (I believe I have followed them all even your Miata track build!)
stock z06 rotors are $650 shipped, they have served me 5 1/2 days on track, 13,000 miles, many a hard canyon drive and likely have a 2-3 track days before I change them due to cracking. That’s incredible to me. I’m using the 2017+ cooling kit and backing plates. Also raybestos st43 pads are $650 for a full set front and rear and I think I’ll get 8 days out of these pads. So that’s $163/day in rotors and pads I don’t know when I will have to replace the rears but they still look good. They are $650 shipped off rock auto as well. If they last twice as long as the fronts that’s still only $203/day in pads and rotors. Then tires, I buy take off tires for ~$600/set and they get me three days average so that’s $200 day. Up to $403/day. Brake bleed before every day at $20 of SRF so that’s $423/day.
stock z06 rotors are $650 shipped, they have served me 5 1/2 days on track, 13,000 miles, many a hard canyon drive and likely have a 2-3 track days before I change them due to cracking. That’s incredible to me. I’m using the 2017+ cooling kit and backing plates. Also raybestos st43 pads are $650 for a full set front and rear and I think I’ll get 8 days out of these pads. So that’s $163/day in rotors and pads I don’t know when I will have to replace the rears but they still look good. They are $650 shipped off rock auto as well. If they last twice as long as the fronts that’s still only $203/day in pads and rotors. Then tires, I buy take off tires for ~$600/set and they get me three days average so that’s $200 day. Up to $403/day. Brake bleed before every day at $20 of SRF so that’s $423/day.
Have you tried the carbotech lineup? Easier on the rotors.
I don't think carbotechs are any easier than ST43s; they're both pretty good on rotor wear. ST43s last 3x, though (per my own experience on other cars).
01-05-2019, 10:27 PM
