Z06Vert

I agree...

docf

Absolutely correct! Without a tune will revert or be less.

OnPoint

Looks like SlowPoke's 1/4 mile slips and accompanying info tell the story on this.

Interesting he could do a quick reset on the PCM with a quick batt dis/reconnect to recover the gains lost through the PCM learning/adjusting.

phantasms

I sold my intake recently for a number of reasons. But this throttle controller is what I'm most interested in as I didn't care about power with the intake I simple wanted to improve throttle response.

Best,
Gene

Slow Poke

I have the Vitesse Throttle Controller on my A8 as well. I thought it would lower my 60 fts without having to tune the car. It does work well when street driving with very quick throttle response at SP5. However at the track, I found leaving at SP0 which is the factory setting works best with car set to Track mode sport1 and TC off. My quickest times were with the Vitesse off! Can't really explain why, maybe it has to with driver demand table and accelerator pedal positions? The E92 computer is difficult to figure out.

Halltech

The ECU is in a constant learn cycle. It can take away timing, and add timing back depending on the learn feature built in.

This customer had been at the track a few times from what I remember, and could not break into the 10s. His June 20th pass was bone stock and was 11.185 @ 122.21 mph. (His best stock pass).

He installed our Stinger RZ and drove the car for quite a few miles before returning to the track. My memory tells me that he drove over 200 miles to the track August 22,15 and made several passes. It is clear that he had plenty of miles for the ECU to adapt, which takes no more than 100 miles. The results? -.406 e.t. and +5.77 mph.

He returned to the track the next day and of course had been driving in the meantime, and ran 10.77 at 130 mph (no slip, but it was his post) which would be +7.79 mph over stock.

Maybe he is watching this tread and could jump in with the protocol he used.




Stock vs. Halltech

Maybe Jason could return to the track using our high flow filter and bring along the stock system for comparison, on the same day.

C7/Z06 Man

Gene two things:

Get a DiabloSport "Intune" it has a "canned" DiabloSport tune (93 octane) which will wake your car up. and two, it also has a throttle controller which will "really" kick the car in the a$$ if you turn it up. I am talking from experience. This is one purchase you will see/feel results on the street. Oh, and is safe and installs from your driver seat.

Note: The throttle controller is like: BLAST OFF!

I got to ask, why did you sell the intake?

thebishman

It sounds as if the battery might have been disconnected during the installation of the software updates allowing the ECU to re-set/re-learn?

Bish

Halltech

I am going to contact all the dealers that made 45 to 55 RWHP and check out their protocol.

I know most were done same day same dyno.

The only one I know for sure that was our subsequent dyno that was done after 3,000 miles + with our Stinger-RZ testing. We experimented with 6 different MAF read area designs, and three different filters. We drove our car to Katech in Michigan with our intake on. That is 470 miles.

Below is the best dyno pull of the day which resulted in 10.7 PSI boost and 12.5:1 air fuel ratio. Sorry I don't have the stock pull, but I will try to get it from Katech Monday. If my memory serves me, we saw +36 RWHP over stock, which is not 50, but it is what it is. That pull was done to test our Synthetic Filter. We have the stock pull somewhere on another computer.

If you look at the actual SAE numbers, they are oustanding compared to most dynos we see, but like I said, the stock pulls were good too.





Halltech mule, done after 3,000 miles.

We were also told by Katech that our intake makes the same hp and torque as the stock intake without the filter installed. In addition, they told us that our boost was higher than the stock intake and small pulley on their car.

What seems to be the variable is not the timing as much as the boost. We have seen anywhere from almost no boost (9.4 PSI) to 11 PSI on our car. This happens even when dyno testing the same day. 1 PSI boost is 25 hp. Maybe the so called Hero pulls are where the boost is higher? I don't know the answer to this, but there seems to be a connection between LTFTs and boost. If you have HP tuners, you can simply reset the LTFTs and pick up 10-12 RWHP!

Resetting the LTFTs is not tuning, and does not void your warranty. Pulling the battery cable does the same thing.

phantasms

Thanks man. I actually have one as I got it for my wife's new Tahoe. It seriously woke that engine and tranny up. Also the throttle is much better now. The only reason I haven't thrown it on the Vette is I'm still one of the few who is a little skeptical about it being seen by GM if the engine goes. That said I'm at 20k miles and it hasn't blown up yet so that's a good sign. I could buy another license for like $100 or so and throw it on the Vette. If someone could convince me that I'd be in the clear I'd do it tonight.

Usually I tune my cars but a 100k mile warranty on 650tq/hp car driven hard every day is a nice thing.

I sold the intake for a few reasons. I was on the group buy so I got the first batch. Well there were several figment issues with it and I was told by Jim that I was doing it wrong. Once I got it installed the hood was a little higher on the side where the intake was and frankly I didn't like some of the gaps and the fit and finish. Again I didn't care about more power just better throttle...and maybe some supercharger noise. Without even starting it up I said F it and uninstalled it. It sat in the box for months and I thought maybe I would install it another time. As time went on Jim said the holes were cut in the wrong spot on the box....he also came out with a different version where the "PCV?" valve fit somewhere else...that was another complaint I had with it. So it seemed all my "you're doing it wrong" was actually the product wasn't right. Lastly I felt it was way too close to the main radiation hoses no matter what I did to move them. Jim was very helpful that day I went to install it and very nice but in the end I was a little taken back by the fact that I wasn't doing it wrong, it was wrong. Additionally my intake was shipped without the PCV nipple. I was sternly told that i must have lost it. When I spoke to several other first batch people they said theirs also didn't have the nipple in the box. So basically I was put off by the whole thing. As the months went by there were many threads such as this and PMs I had with many people on this forum I hold in high regard as to the safety and efficacy of these intakes. So in the end I sold it for a steal. While my experience wasn't the best I still think very highly of Jim Hall and would happily buy another product from him. But I'm over intakes for this car.

ps. For what it's worth if someone came to me asking what intake to purchase I'd tell them Halltech.

Best,
Gene

C7/Z06 Man

Thanks Gene, I really did not expect you going into that much detail on the Halltech but appreciate it.

I have my intune left over from the Grand Sport. I have installed and un-installed the DiabloSport a number of times in the Z06. The Diablo tune for the "stock" Z06 you will feel and you can add up to 20% to the throttle which 10% was plenty for me when I tried it and you could just add throttle % to the stock tune too if you wanted to.

My experience with the dealer seeing the DiabloSport tune is this:

I had the tune in than I unloaded it to take the car to the dealer to do a number of updates/checks. I asked if everything look good because maybe the problem was in the computer. When I picked the car up the dealer said "everything checked out fine," we did all the updates and you are ready to go.

phantasms

Thanks man. Very cool and good to know. Let my paranoid side ask...warranty wise are you any safer just doing the throttle tune or once you are messing with it you may as well go all the way? I am quite convinced at this point that the dealer can not detect it. It's GM I'm worried about if the engine goes. I'm in no way looking to start a warranty debate on this product...there have been plenty. I'm leaning towards doing it...and probably if I did I wouldn't post on here that I did.

So what do you think on the throttle only vs full DS detection wise? Are the things that some people claim GM can see affected if you only do the throttle boost?

Thanks!

Best,
Gene

ktoonsez

If the tech's are instructed to look for 3rd party tunes they will find it no matter how far you go, you could modify 1 variable and they can tell a number of different ways so go all the way if you want to do some tuning and run the risk

C7/Z06 Man

With all the talk back and forth on this subject I have never heard of GM detecting a removed Diablo tune and as far as the tunes go I have never heard of their tune blowing up an otherwise stock car.

If your going to do it I would go all the way with a tune along with more throttle response and if an A8 (or stick) you can remove the V4 mode (DOD) all together. Lets face it if it can be read then they can see one or many things.

PS: A guy I know just bought a 2016 Hell Cat. He said he read that for the new Mopars Diablo recommends getting a spare PCM to tune because with that brand/setup a tune can be detected.

dar02081961

Yes sir the lock in when above +3 FT works the same. However the E92 torque based controller is a bear in that it has the ability to limit torque based on predicted traction available or better said predicted threshold for loss of traction. This is different than traction control which is reactive and based on the amount of traction that has been detected due to wheel slippage or spin.

I agree this thread is very convoluted. We are discussing 2 different CAI's, some folks are talking about greater than normal KR with these CAI's which has been proven by many not to be the case. Yet others are saying the fuel trims are off and the CAI's are running lean. So far none of the folks making those claims have posted data or stated what their lean AFR was. Ditto for the fuel trims.

I am a firm believer that the gains from the CAI will remain. Maybe I can steer the thought process by asking a few questions.

Does you car run better when its colder outside?
Does a Z06 produce more power at sea level than it does in Denver?

I think most would agree the answer to both questions above is yes.
Why? Because the engine is getting more (denser air) and the PCM compensates by adding more fuel to make a tad more power. These gains arent learned away over time. The power gained from a lower DA is always there.

If you add a less restrictive CAI that provides more air AND you measure an increase in power on the dyno you have in effect decreased the DA as far as the engine is concerned.

So why/how would the PCM learn away power from a CAI?
It simply doesn't. It doesn't know if the lower DA came from a free flowing intake or from thicker air because the car is now at sea level. It just knows to apply a certain amount of fuel to attain the desired AFR based on air density.
At WOT (open loop) this "speed density" calculation is a real time solution calculated in real time, every time.

6Speeder

"So why/how would the PCM learn away power from a CAI?
It simply doesn't. It doesn't know if the lower DA came from a free flowing intake or from thicker air because the car is now at sea level. It just knows to apply a certain amount of fuel to attain the desired AFR based on air density."

If the C7's ECM operates like the C5's and the C6's ECM that's not always true. The ECM calculates airflow based on sampling SOME of the airflow. If the design of the CAI allows more air to flow around the sensor the ECM's calculation will be wrong, giving a leaner (or richer, depending on the real airflow) A/F ratio then desired. This will give you high LTFT's. With consistent high LTFT's the ECM will try to learn out the misreadings and could learn out the power gained by running a leaner A/F.

"At WOT (open loop) this "speed density" calculation is a real time solution calculated in real time, every time."

Also, not quite true. If, when in closed loop just prior to going WOT, if your LTFT's are large and positive, the ECM will add the same percentage of fuel from the WOT tables as they were doing during closed loop. This is done to protect the engine from running lean at WOT. Again, this is what the C5 and C6 ECM's did, I expect the new ECM's to do the same.

That being said, I haven't seen this problem with the HALLTECH CAI, which I have had on for many, many months and monitored and tested on the dyno, dragstrip, and street with no high LTFT's or high KR's seen. It is not going to "UNLEARN" the 40 SAE RWHP gain I saw on the dyno.

Blvdbrawler

Ive had my Halltech since the initial group buy...Nothing but more power and I have almost 5000 miles on my car.

I think its one of those things that everybody likes to argue about...Next you will hear Halltech CAI's cause cancer...

badhabit_wb

Or problems with traction.

dar02081961

Like you are seeing these CAI's just arent showing crazy LTFTs or a bunch of KR.

DwayneR6406

I hate to bring up a dead thread, but has there been any real explanation as to why some folks are posting worse times with the Halltech and others posting better times? Has anyone done a pull and had another pull a few weeks later that showed anything different?