7:13 'Ring Lap time from the C7 Z06
07-16-2017, 12:11 AM
#201
The GS wouldn't have near the top speed of the ZL1 at that track but a GS Z07 on Cup tires would have much higher cornering limits and better braking as well. I think the GS would end up being a little quicker.
Last edited by Kappa; 07-16-2017 at 12:12 AM.
07-16-2017, 09:33 AM
#202
Melting Slicks
The following was just posted today by a forum member who claims to speak German.
I am just the messenger.
Originally Posted by Z-OH-6 View Post
"First post here ... already reading for a while.
I own a '17 Z06 A8 so I WANT it to be good.
That being said I read the full article in the Sport Auto magazine (one benefit of being born in Germany ) around the 7:13 time on the Nuerburgring. And as good as the time might be - I don't like a the surrounding article at all. First, they throw the M7 under the bus - they say it's nowhere close to the competition. They actually got a modified version from GM that locks 7th gear. Even worse - they had 3 test mules, two M7 and one A8. The M7's dynoed about 30HP short - the A8 120HP(!!!!!) short. I know that's just a dyno number and the proof is on the track - they dyno all cars in the super test and lots and lots actually come in higher!. The acceleration is also pretty bad ... 0-100 km/h (62 mph) in 3.8 sec and 0-200 km/h (124 mph) in 12.1 sec. That's nuts for a car with that power! A BMW M4 (in the same issue) with 455hp does it in 4.1 and 13.3 - a Mercedes E63 with 605hp and the weight of a condo blows the Z06 out of the water with 3.5 and 11.5. They claim that had NO overheating issue at all! That's pretty disappointing if you ask me ... please somebody tell me that the euro-spec cars are different ...
Again .. not bashing the Z06 (own one and love it!) ... but still ... WTF?"
I am just the messenger.
Originally Posted by Z-OH-6 View Post
"First post here ... already reading for a while.
I own a '17 Z06 A8 so I WANT it to be good.
That being said I read the full article in the Sport Auto magazine (one benefit of being born in Germany ) around the 7:13 time on the Nuerburgring. And as good as the time might be - I don't like a the surrounding article at all. First, they throw the M7 under the bus - they say it's nowhere close to the competition. They actually got a modified version from GM that locks 7th gear. Even worse - they had 3 test mules, two M7 and one A8. The M7's dynoed about 30HP short - the A8 120HP(!!!!!) short. I know that's just a dyno number and the proof is on the track - they dyno all cars in the super test and lots and lots actually come in higher!. The acceleration is also pretty bad ... 0-100 km/h (62 mph) in 3.8 sec and 0-200 km/h (124 mph) in 12.1 sec. That's nuts for a car with that power! A BMW M4 (in the same issue) with 455hp does it in 4.1 and 13.3 - a Mercedes E63 with 605hp and the weight of a condo blows the Z06 out of the water with 3.5 and 11.5. They claim that had NO overheating issue at all! That's pretty disappointing if you ask me ... please somebody tell me that the euro-spec cars are different ...
Again .. not bashing the Z06 (own one and love it!) ... but still ... WTF?"
Last edited by Hemi Dave; 07-16-2017 at 09:51 AM.
07-16-2017, 09:36 AM
#203
Some rough translations from the article for you, which might clear up some questions brought up here:
- They already made an attempt with an A8 in the past, after pegging the engine oil temperature to 160 degree (320 F), they quit that try, and "GM would not give them an A8 to test on the ring again".
- Jim Mero did an attempt with the same car under the same circumstances, and managed a 7.11, so much for the < 7.10 assumptions.
- The shifting quality of that M7 is - well - not so fine. That seems to be not only the opinion of a german journalist, but also the one of Jim Mero itself, who insisted that all test mules have his "mod", consisting of a small mechanical barrier making it impossible to shift into 7th unintentionally, the sport auto test car was so-equipped also.
- Jim Mero mentioned the third time: they praised him for beeing a really cool car guy, because he even said "please mention these shifting issues, so GM is forced to improve on this issue".
- The seats - well, a neverending story with the Corvette? They tested it with aftermarket racing seats and a brace for the harnesses. For clarification: Porsche made their "official" laptimes also with aftermarket racing seats for safety reasons, although in this case, the racing seats were heavier than the lightest stock seats. The sport auto test of the GT3 though, was made with stock seats.
- Apart from the test, just a general information for those who are not so close into this topic: for a better understanding of the tires of the Corvette - there are Michelin Cup 2`s and then there are Michelin Cup 2´s made for the Corvette. The regular Cup 2 - like on the GT3, the AMG GT-R without the "special option tires", and on some other top-tier sportscars -are the one thing. The "option tires" on the AMG GT-R are with the same thread and mixture like the Corvette ones. AMG does not sell them regularly from the factory, you have to special-order them, and let them be approved individually by the TÜV, to say it simple, AMG does not want you to drive daily with these tires. A sister magazine of sportauto tested the GT-R with the "regular" Cup 2 and the "Corvette" Cup 2 on the small Hockenheim Ring, with a 1.5 sec. difference in laptimes on a sub 1 min 10 sec. lap. Even if you can not upscale from Hockenheim to the ring linear, experienced track drivers in Germany say that this will calculate to about 5 to 6 seconds on the the ring.
But - well, we all know this is "run what 'ya brung", so no criticism on this tire choice by GM, just some information for the nerds...
BTW: the AMG 7.11 was of course driven with the option tires.
Still, what I wanted to say, it is really nice to hear that GM managed such a great result, but - and this is the keyword - if (another keyword) GM could only manage to achieve a laptime without any "ifs" and "buts"...
I will not even mention the duct-taped US license plate on the side of the test car, to open the grille opening for cooling...
Best regards, Bernd
- They already made an attempt with an A8 in the past, after pegging the engine oil temperature to 160 degree (320 F), they quit that try, and "GM would not give them an A8 to test on the ring again".
- Jim Mero did an attempt with the same car under the same circumstances, and managed a 7.11, so much for the < 7.10 assumptions.
- The shifting quality of that M7 is - well - not so fine. That seems to be not only the opinion of a german journalist, but also the one of Jim Mero itself, who insisted that all test mules have his "mod", consisting of a small mechanical barrier making it impossible to shift into 7th unintentionally, the sport auto test car was so-equipped also.
- Jim Mero mentioned the third time: they praised him for beeing a really cool car guy, because he even said "please mention these shifting issues, so GM is forced to improve on this issue".
- The seats - well, a neverending story with the Corvette? They tested it with aftermarket racing seats and a brace for the harnesses. For clarification: Porsche made their "official" laptimes also with aftermarket racing seats for safety reasons, although in this case, the racing seats were heavier than the lightest stock seats. The sport auto test of the GT3 though, was made with stock seats.
- Apart from the test, just a general information for those who are not so close into this topic: for a better understanding of the tires of the Corvette - there are Michelin Cup 2`s and then there are Michelin Cup 2´s made for the Corvette. The regular Cup 2 - like on the GT3, the AMG GT-R without the "special option tires", and on some other top-tier sportscars -are the one thing. The "option tires" on the AMG GT-R are with the same thread and mixture like the Corvette ones. AMG does not sell them regularly from the factory, you have to special-order them, and let them be approved individually by the TÜV, to say it simple, AMG does not want you to drive daily with these tires. A sister magazine of sportauto tested the GT-R with the "regular" Cup 2 and the "Corvette" Cup 2 on the small Hockenheim Ring, with a 1.5 sec. difference in laptimes on a sub 1 min 10 sec. lap. Even if you can not upscale from Hockenheim to the ring linear, experienced track drivers in Germany say that this will calculate to about 5 to 6 seconds on the the ring.
But - well, we all know this is "run what 'ya brung", so no criticism on this tire choice by GM, just some information for the nerds...
BTW: the AMG 7.11 was of course driven with the option tires.
Still, what I wanted to say, it is really nice to hear that GM managed such a great result, but - and this is the keyword - if (another keyword) GM could only manage to achieve a laptime without any "ifs" and "buts"...
I will not even mention the duct-taped US license plate on the side of the test car, to open the grille opening for cooling...
Best regards, Bernd
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07-16-2017, 09:41 AM
#204
Melting Slicks
Some rough translations from the article for you, which might clear up some questions brought up here:
- They already made an attempt with an A8 in the past, after pegging the engine oil temperature to 160 degree (320 F), they quit that try, and "GM would not give them an A8 to test on the ring again".
- Jim Mero did an attempt with the same car under the same circumstances, and managed a 7.11, so much for the < 7.10 assumptions.
- The shifting quality of that M7 is - well - not so fine. That seems to be not only the opinion of a german journalist, but also the one of Jim Mero itself, who insisted that all test mules have his "mod", consisting of a small mechanical barrier making it impossible to shift into 7th unintentionally, the sport auto test car was so-equipped also.
- Jim Mero mentioned the third time: they praised him for beeing a really cool car guy, because he even said "please mention these shifting issues, so GM is forced to improve on this issue".
- The seats - well, a neverending story with the Corvette? They tested it with aftermarket racing seats and a brace for the harnesses. For clarification: Porsche made their "official" laptimes also with aftermarket racing seats for safety reasons, although in this case, the racing seats were heavier than the lightest stock seats. The sport auto test of the GT3 though, was made with stock seats.
- Apart from the test, just a general information for those who are not so close into this topic: for a better understanding of the tires of the Corvette - there are Michelin Cup 2`s and then there are Michelin Cup 2´s made for the Corvette. The regular Cup 2 - like on the GT3, the AMG GT-R without the "special option tires", and on some other top-tier sportscars -are the one thing. The "option tires" on the AMG GT-R are with the same thread and mixture like the Corvette ones. AMG does not sell them regularly from the factory, you have to special-order them, and let them be approved individually by the TÜV, to say it simple, AMG does not want you to drive daily with these tires. A sister magazine of sportauto tested the GT-R with the "regular" Cup 2 and the "Corvette" Cup 2 on the small Hockenheim Ring, with a 1.5 sec. difference in laptimes on a sub 1 min 10 sec. lap. Even if you can not upscale from Hockenheim to the ring linear, experienced track drivers in Germany say that this will calculate to about 5 to 6 seconds on the the ring.
But - well, we all know this is "run what 'ya brung", so no criticism on this tire choice by GM, just some information for the nerds...
BTW: the AMG 7.11 was of course driven with the option tires.
Still, what I wanted to say, it is really nice to hear that GM managed such a great result, but - and this is the keyword - if (another keyword) GM could only manage to achieve a laptime without any "ifs" and "buts"...
I will not even mention the duct-taped US license plate on the side of the test car, to open the grille opening for cooling...
Best regards, Bernd
- They already made an attempt with an A8 in the past, after pegging the engine oil temperature to 160 degree (320 F), they quit that try, and "GM would not give them an A8 to test on the ring again".
- Jim Mero did an attempt with the same car under the same circumstances, and managed a 7.11, so much for the < 7.10 assumptions.
- The shifting quality of that M7 is - well - not so fine. That seems to be not only the opinion of a german journalist, but also the one of Jim Mero itself, who insisted that all test mules have his "mod", consisting of a small mechanical barrier making it impossible to shift into 7th unintentionally, the sport auto test car was so-equipped also.
- Jim Mero mentioned the third time: they praised him for beeing a really cool car guy, because he even said "please mention these shifting issues, so GM is forced to improve on this issue".
- The seats - well, a neverending story with the Corvette? They tested it with aftermarket racing seats and a brace for the harnesses. For clarification: Porsche made their "official" laptimes also with aftermarket racing seats for safety reasons, although in this case, the racing seats were heavier than the lightest stock seats. The sport auto test of the GT3 though, was made with stock seats.
- Apart from the test, just a general information for those who are not so close into this topic: for a better understanding of the tires of the Corvette - there are Michelin Cup 2`s and then there are Michelin Cup 2´s made for the Corvette. The regular Cup 2 - like on the GT3, the AMG GT-R without the "special option tires", and on some other top-tier sportscars -are the one thing. The "option tires" on the AMG GT-R are with the same thread and mixture like the Corvette ones. AMG does not sell them regularly from the factory, you have to special-order them, and let them be approved individually by the TÜV, to say it simple, AMG does not want you to drive daily with these tires. A sister magazine of sportauto tested the GT-R with the "regular" Cup 2 and the "Corvette" Cup 2 on the small Hockenheim Ring, with a 1.5 sec. difference in laptimes on a sub 1 min 10 sec. lap. Even if you can not upscale from Hockenheim to the ring linear, experienced track drivers in Germany say that this will calculate to about 5 to 6 seconds on the the ring.
But - well, we all know this is "run what 'ya brung", so no criticism on this tire choice by GM, just some information for the nerds...
BTW: the AMG 7.11 was of course driven with the option tires.
Still, what I wanted to say, it is really nice to hear that GM managed such a great result, but - and this is the keyword - if (another keyword) GM could only manage to achieve a laptime without any "ifs" and "buts"...
I will not even mention the duct-taped US license plate on the side of the test car, to open the grille opening for cooling...
Best regards, Bernd
07-16-2017, 09:45 AM
#205
Where can I read said article?
07-16-2017, 12:23 PM
#206
Melting Slicks
07-16-2017, 12:27 PM
#207
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Oct 2005
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Finalist 2020 C7 of the Year -- Unmodified
Can you translate the article to English for us?
07-16-2017, 12:32 PM
#208
Melting Slicks
07-16-2017, 12:43 PM
#210
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Finalist 2020 C7 of the Year -- Unmodified
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Hemi Dave (07-16-2017)
07-16-2017, 12:51 PM
#212
Race Director
More notes from the article (my German is pretty rusty):
"This particular example we tested was problem-free" (implying others were not)
"This car exhibits neutral handling. Only under very late braking does it exhibit some "push" (understeer)"
"As at Hockenheim, best Nordschliefe results are obtained with TC-Off under nearly all conditions. Even so, the Z06 exhibits unbelievable amount of power and traction coming out of corners"
"And, the car allows very late braking into the apex"
"The Corvette gearbox still falls short of the Porsche gearboxes ease of shifting and precision, and requires significant concentration (and workload) from the driver" [to not botch a shift, upsetting the car-my interpretation]
"Perhaps we could have established a top time for the car had we used the Automatic with its closer ratios and faster shifting. But as it stands now, Corvette will have to be content with winning a new category: fastest Manual equipped [production] car"
From conclusion section (paraphrased)
"I hope we never again face such a complicated and drawn-out test process as we have had with the Z06" and then cites issues with scheduling, the already cited issues with certain cars, and availability of cars from GM. He then refers to the tranny, concluding:
"the issues encountered with shifting are not that big a deal in the scheme of things"
and "overall, team Corvette should be applauded for bringing such a stupendous performance car to market"
"This particular example we tested was problem-free" (implying others were not)
"This car exhibits neutral handling. Only under very late braking does it exhibit some "push" (understeer)"
"As at Hockenheim, best Nordschliefe results are obtained with TC-Off under nearly all conditions. Even so, the Z06 exhibits unbelievable amount of power and traction coming out of corners"
"And, the car allows very late braking into the apex"
"The Corvette gearbox still falls short of the Porsche gearboxes ease of shifting and precision, and requires significant concentration (and workload) from the driver" [to not botch a shift, upsetting the car-my interpretation]
"Perhaps we could have established a top time for the car had we used the Automatic with its closer ratios and faster shifting. But as it stands now, Corvette will have to be content with winning a new category: fastest Manual equipped [production] car"
From conclusion section (paraphrased)
"I hope we never again face such a complicated and drawn-out test process as we have had with the Z06" and then cites issues with scheduling, the already cited issues with certain cars, and availability of cars from GM. He then refers to the tranny, concluding:
"the issues encountered with shifting are not that big a deal in the scheme of things"
and "overall, team Corvette should be applauded for bringing such a stupendous performance car to market"
Last edited by TTRotary; 07-16-2017 at 01:42 PM.
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07-16-2017, 01:06 PM
#213
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More notes from the article (my German is pretty rusty):
"This particular example we tested was problem-free" (implying others were not)
"This car exhibits neutral handling. Only under late braking does it exhibit some "push" (oversteer)"
From conclusion section (paraphrased)
"I hope we never again face such a complicated and drawn-out test process as we have had with the Z06" and then cites issues with scheduling, the already cited issues with certain cars, and availability of cars from GM. He then refers to the tranny, concluding:
"the issues encountered with shifting are not that big a deal in the scheme of things"
and "overall, team Corvette should be applauded for bringing such a stupendous performance car to market"
"This particular example we tested was problem-free" (implying others were not)
"This car exhibits neutral handling. Only under late braking does it exhibit some "push" (oversteer)"
From conclusion section (paraphrased)
"I hope we never again face such a complicated and drawn-out test process as we have had with the Z06" and then cites issues with scheduling, the already cited issues with certain cars, and availability of cars from GM. He then refers to the tranny, concluding:
"the issues encountered with shifting are not that big a deal in the scheme of things"
and "overall, team Corvette should be applauded for bringing such a stupendous performance car to market"
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Boba Fett (07-16-2017)
07-16-2017, 01:18 PM
#215
Some rough translations from the article for you, which might clear up some questions brought up here:
- They already made an attempt with an A8 in the past, after pegging the engine oil temperature to 160 degree (320 F), they quit that try, and "GM would not give them an A8 to test on the ring again".
- Jim Mero did an attempt with the same car under the same circumstances, and managed a 7.11, so much for the < 7.10 assumptions.
- The shifting quality of that M7 is - well - not so fine. That seems to be not only the opinion of a german journalist, but also the one of Jim Mero itself, who insisted that all test mules have his "mod", consisting of a small mechanical barrier making it impossible to shift into 7th unintentionally, the sport auto test car was so-equipped also.
- Jim Mero mentioned the third time: they praised him for beeing a really cool car guy, because he even said "please mention these shifting issues, so GM is forced to improve on this issue".
- The seats - well, a neverending story with the Corvette? They tested it with aftermarket racing seats and a brace for the harnesses. For clarification: Porsche made their "official" laptimes also with aftermarket racing seats for safety reasons, although in this case, the racing seats were heavier than the lightest stock seats. The sport auto test of the GT3 though, was made with stock seats.
- Apart from the test, just a general information for those who are not so close into this topic: for a better understanding of the tires of the Corvette - there are Michelin Cup 2`s and then there are Michelin Cup 2´s made for the Corvette. The regular Cup 2 - like on the GT3, the AMG GT-R without the "special option tires", and on some other top-tier sportscars -are the one thing. The "option tires" on the AMG GT-R are with the same thread and mixture like the Corvette ones. AMG does not sell them regularly from the factory, you have to special-order them, and let them be approved individually by the TÜV, to say it simple, AMG does not want you to drive daily with these tires. A sister magazine of sportauto tested the GT-R with the "regular" Cup 2 and the "Corvette" Cup 2 on the small Hockenheim Ring, with a 1.5 sec. difference in laptimes on a sub 1 min 10 sec. lap. Even if you can not upscale from Hockenheim to the ring linear, experienced track drivers in Germany say that this will calculate to about 5 to 6 seconds on the the ring.
But - well, we all know this is "run what 'ya brung", so no criticism on this tire choice by GM, just some information for the nerds...
BTW: the AMG 7.11 was of course driven with the option tires.
Still, what I wanted to say, it is really nice to hear that GM managed such a great result, but - and this is the keyword - if (another keyword) GM could only manage to achieve a laptime without any "ifs" and "buts"...
I will not even mention the duct-taped US license plate on the side of the test car, to open the grille opening for cooling...
Best regards, Bernd
- They already made an attempt with an A8 in the past, after pegging the engine oil temperature to 160 degree (320 F), they quit that try, and "GM would not give them an A8 to test on the ring again".
- Jim Mero did an attempt with the same car under the same circumstances, and managed a 7.11, so much for the < 7.10 assumptions.
- The shifting quality of that M7 is - well - not so fine. That seems to be not only the opinion of a german journalist, but also the one of Jim Mero itself, who insisted that all test mules have his "mod", consisting of a small mechanical barrier making it impossible to shift into 7th unintentionally, the sport auto test car was so-equipped also.
- Jim Mero mentioned the third time: they praised him for beeing a really cool car guy, because he even said "please mention these shifting issues, so GM is forced to improve on this issue".
- The seats - well, a neverending story with the Corvette? They tested it with aftermarket racing seats and a brace for the harnesses. For clarification: Porsche made their "official" laptimes also with aftermarket racing seats for safety reasons, although in this case, the racing seats were heavier than the lightest stock seats. The sport auto test of the GT3 though, was made with stock seats.
- Apart from the test, just a general information for those who are not so close into this topic: for a better understanding of the tires of the Corvette - there are Michelin Cup 2`s and then there are Michelin Cup 2´s made for the Corvette. The regular Cup 2 - like on the GT3, the AMG GT-R without the "special option tires", and on some other top-tier sportscars -are the one thing. The "option tires" on the AMG GT-R are with the same thread and mixture like the Corvette ones. AMG does not sell them regularly from the factory, you have to special-order them, and let them be approved individually by the TÜV, to say it simple, AMG does not want you to drive daily with these tires. A sister magazine of sportauto tested the GT-R with the "regular" Cup 2 and the "Corvette" Cup 2 on the small Hockenheim Ring, with a 1.5 sec. difference in laptimes on a sub 1 min 10 sec. lap. Even if you can not upscale from Hockenheim to the ring linear, experienced track drivers in Germany say that this will calculate to about 5 to 6 seconds on the the ring.
But - well, we all know this is "run what 'ya brung", so no criticism on this tire choice by GM, just some information for the nerds...
BTW: the AMG 7.11 was of course driven with the option tires.
Still, what I wanted to say, it is really nice to hear that GM managed such a great result, but - and this is the keyword - if (another keyword) GM could only manage to achieve a laptime without any "ifs" and "buts"...
I will not even mention the duct-taped US license plate on the side of the test car, to open the grille opening for cooling...
Best regards, Bernd
Question - did they give Jim Mark's actual time or only rounded to the nearest second? I think that would make it the fastest manual record
07-16-2017, 01:19 PM
#216
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More notes from the article (my German is pretty rusty):
"This particular example we tested was problem-free" (implying others were not)
"This car exhibits neutral handling. Only under very late braking does it exhibit some "push" (understeer)"
"As at Hockenheim, best Nordschliefe results are obtained with TC-Off under nearly all conditions. Even so, the Z06 exhibits unbelievable amount of power and traction coming out of corners"
"And, the car allows very late braking into the apex"
From conclusion section (paraphrased)
"I hope we never again face such a complicated and drawn-out test process as we have had with the Z06" and then cites issues with scheduling, the already cited issues with certain cars, and availability of cars from GM. He then refers to the tranny, concluding:
"the issues encountered with shifting are not that big a deal in the scheme of things"
and "overall, team Corvette should be applauded for bringing such a stupendous performance car to market"
"This particular example we tested was problem-free" (implying others were not)
"This car exhibits neutral handling. Only under very late braking does it exhibit some "push" (understeer)"
"As at Hockenheim, best Nordschliefe results are obtained with TC-Off under nearly all conditions. Even so, the Z06 exhibits unbelievable amount of power and traction coming out of corners"
"And, the car allows very late braking into the apex"
From conclusion section (paraphrased)
"I hope we never again face such a complicated and drawn-out test process as we have had with the Z06" and then cites issues with scheduling, the already cited issues with certain cars, and availability of cars from GM. He then refers to the tranny, concluding:
"the issues encountered with shifting are not that big a deal in the scheme of things"
and "overall, team Corvette should be applauded for bringing such a stupendous performance car to market"
After watching the video, it does appear there is quite a lot of time on the table still... 7:05 is within reach on a perfect lap. Those little slides cost a fair bit of time each and every time. I can't wait to see what the ZR1 can do with another 1000 lb of downforce and a better engine
07-16-2017, 01:20 PM
#217
no doubt the GS/z07 is very capable but
$95k for 460hp is a tough pill to swallow
i can't imagine GM making many this loaded.
Might as well get a z06.
but you can spend $90+k for a 4 cylinder Porsche boxter, so it could be worse
07-16-2017, 01:57 PM
#218
Was the 7:11 that Mero did, the only run he did? I wonder how is it that SportAuto can come out and say that time and GM is still hush about it? If 7:11 is the end all for GM then I suppose a lot of us who hoped or guess sub 7:10 is in for some hurt. Lol! Either way the car did great with no issues, so that's a good sign!
07-16-2017, 02:29 PM
#220
That works