Bob, your comments raise an issue that I have been concerned about since starting using a harness bar. The first harness bar I purchased for my 86 Corvette was a piece of crap that wouldn't hold up to a severe tug by my hands. I have seen pictures of broken harness bars in non domestic 4 door cars that were being used on track. The pictures I saw showed broken bars Vs sheared mounting points but I have wondered about the shear force applied by the stock belt right at the mounting bolt Vs the shear/tension force that is applied when the shoulder harness force is spread along a bar fastened to the stock seat belt mount.

I was wondering if you have any documentation of actual incidents that shows the danger. Most of us don't get to see what happens to the safety equipment in track accidents and I have never seen a harness bar that failed when looking at a few crashed cars after incidents.

However, I know that doesn't mean under certain circumstances and force levels the point may be reached where the mount may not hold up as well with a bar fastened to it as it would with just the stock seat belt end.

I have consulted with Joe Marko from HMS Motorsports who is a recognized restraint expert and chose my belts based on his advice but he flat out told me he has no way of knowing if my harness bar or the harness bar mounts would hold up in an incident of sufficient force. The manufacturers of the various C7 Harness bars have all said they hire somebody to do a force analysis of their bars but I have no idea whether that analysis includes the stock mounts that are in the B pillar. I don't even know if the strength of those mounts is a matter of public record so somebody could use the data in an analysis.

Bill

 

Bob, Thanks for the information i take it as constructive concern We had much the same concern on angle when designing the custom brackets. We did check the angle with me in the seat and with my seat all the way down the angle was in the 22-25 range. I think these pics appear to look like much more. The problem.... I like the comfort of my GT seats but the belt pass through is fairly low. If we used one of the many bars available the belts would be running into the seat then up and over my shoulder. Not good! That was one of the reasons to come up with a safe lower mount point. With a shorter toros person than myself the angle is even better.

I've installed a few belt bars in my day. Like Bill asked does anyone have any destruction info on these? I'm with all of you I always question the simple mounting and the bars strength. Especially with 2 bodies moving forward during a high speed frontal impact. We were pleasantly surprised of the strength and thickness of the aluminum bulk head GM choose to support the car once we choose to Tig the brackets too it.

Funny just before i read this post i got an email about an upcoming dinner with our local SCCA! Wish i had more time to spend with the group.... some day.

 

The GT seat pass throughs are A.) to close together & B.) to low

Unless you're very short the pass harness will be making contact with the passthrough and using that part of the seat as a deflection point for the harness.

Keeping in mind I am short and the GT seat passthroughs were still too low.

You should change seats, install at a minimum a harness bar to correct the angle.


Safety is a system that requires every component operating in unison. One of those things not setup correctly or even used at all jeopardizes the safety of the entire system.








That's how I configured my car, that's a completely custom fabricated rollbar. but it's also a dedicated time trial car.

 

Please keep it coming guys, lots of valuable information being shared here!

 

Used the Hybrid S from Simpson today. Overall I like it. It adds safety to a 3pt belt setup that you wouldn't otherwise have. The portion behind the back is a bit uncomfortable when seated in the car but becomes unnoticed once you're driving. I like that i can jump in a car with harnesses and still use it. However if I ever cage and harness my car, I'd just get a lower profile standard Hans. Overall a good buy for anyone looking for increased safety and 3pt belts.

 

Yeah - my old Rage R3 came with a pad that you could put against your seatback for the "portion behind the back" to fit into to make it more comfortable. I liked it, so I hooked the pad to the unit so it's always there whenever I'm in my car or right seat in a student's car.




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No compromise there! I remember seeing your set up a few years ago here. Someone should mass produce a 4\5 point bolt in rear cage and harness support for the C7's. With the versatility to still be able to use the rear storage area.

 

Hi Bill, and thanks for the thoughtful response.

Harness bars are designed for the simple purpose of stabilizing the driver in the seat so that he/she can use their arms/hands/legs for actually driving the car rather than holding themselves in position. While they're quite suitable for autocross type events they are not designed as a safety device, as many folks unfortunately and incorrectly assume.

While there is absolutely no way to be "safe" in a track environment there are ways to mitigate the risks involved and the HANS device is one of the best, but only when used in conjunction with a properly designed and installed roll bar or roll cage that will allow it to perform its designed function. A harness bar that attaches to the B-pillar simply cannot do that.

Here are some pics of the most recent incident I've personally witnessed. Brakes failed going into a corner at 90+, car left the track and impacted a tire wall pretty much head-on, harness bar sheared on the driver's side upon impact. In this case the driver may have actually been fortunate because he was not wearing a HANS and the impact was so severe if the bar hadn't failed he could well have experienced the type of skull fracture the HANS is designed to prevent. Regardless, my comments are provided only to hopefully make folks aware of the limitations of a harness bar and the risks associated with using one in lieu of a true safety device when tracking their car.

 

Here's some interesting info that's posted in the AutoX/Roadrace section:

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...ness-bars.html


In there forum member Dan H. posts up info from the PCA Potomac Region about their requirements to meet the PCA National requirements that are coming up for their DE (Driver Education) program:


So...whether this will be adopted by other track day organizations or not remains to be seen, but I know a lot of Vette owners run PCA events, and it sounds like all the regions will need to meet the upcoming PCA National requirements sometime later this year.

Just an FYI so hopefully you aren't surprised when you show up for a PCA event later this year!!

rhneff, can you comment on whether SCCA may be going in this direction???

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THREAD REVIVAL. Plenty of good info from a few years back that may be helpful to newer members (like myself). With newer technology out there I'm wondering what the race veterans are using? My car is a C5Z, 6 point harness, full containment seat and deleted airbags. I'm shopping for a head and neck restraint device and I've narrowed it down to a NecksGen REV2 Lite or a Simpson Hybrid S. Opinions GREATLY appreciated. ALSO Posted in Auto X and RR section since I discovered this thread via Google search.

 

I have a Simpson hybrid that I use with 3 point belts and a Necksgen that I use in my race car. I originally bought the Simpson when I was racing a Spec Miata since it didn’t have a full containment seat. I replaced a HANS because I wanted the lateral protection that the HANS didn’t provide. My current race car has a full containment seat that provides the lateral protection, and the Necksgen is much easier to use. I chose it over another HANS because it is much easier on my collarbones.

 

This past weekend I did my first track day with the NecksGen REV2. After a bit I didn't even notice it was on. Good product. .

 

Using a harness and a hans without a cage is such a bad idea.

If you're going to "do safety" you need to do all or nothing. 5 point harness, cage, hans, and rigid seat.

3 and 4 points will let you slide out from under them without an anti submarine belt.

With a suspension seat and harness you're at risk of breaking your back because you can sink into the seat and then slam back up into the harness. This isn't as big of an issue in a C7 as the seats don't have a lot of movement but fiberglass or carbon fiber race seats do a much better job at containment. Just adding this into the discussion for completeness.

With a harness and no hans you're at risk of breaking your neck since your body is immobilized but your head/helmet isn't.

With a harness/hans and no cage if the roof collapses at all it comes down on to your head and pushes your head down onto your spine.

With a cage and no helmet or no harness you're at risk of hitting your head on a tube.

 

So glad to see someone else preach the same advice I tell my fellow HPDE enthusiasts. I cringe when I see guys put race seats into street cars with factory belts. Just as bad are race, NON DOT harnesses used in street driven cars. Go all factory ( including air bags) or all race. For the record I've got an Autopower 4-point bar in my C5Z to keep my mellon from getting squashed if the unfortunate happens. Safety equipment isn't too complicated but it needs to be well coordinated.